Argantis, you seem and I have no doubt are a very intelligent person. You write and speak well. I very much respect your postings.
That being said I do also see where our opinions vary so much. Im an old gamer. I did DnD at about 14 when it was first intro'd to the world. Ive read every book multi times of every style through the years. I will never adjust to the many off and weird names people of the last few years put on classes. To me there is 1; DPS ( who can use a small amount of cc ) 2; Heals ( that can also dps and do a small amount of cc) 3; Tank ( this is threat control, some damage, crowd control , team protection skills, damage midigantion)4: crowd controller( can of course do some dps maybe even some heals but focused on CC. ) there is no other classes and I put this into everygame that has ever came out. One example to use as a hybred game is GW2. there is no classes there. all classes can be pretty much all classes which is not DnD. there are more games such as this so I will give only this example. when someone says something like " I read in the 7th book of 4th edition about a skill that is refered too twice as a defender skill then it makes..................". nuff said. This new mmo game that is roughly and barely roughly based on the general rules of DnD 4th E is not the textbook of 4th E... not even close.
DC devote cleric = HEALER class that heals (ROUGHLY)50%, dps 30%, CC 20%
GF Guardian fighter = TANK class that tanks mobs(controlling the enemys and aborbing their hits)70%, DPS 20%, regular cc 10%
CW control wizard = DPS class doing a good damage 60%, CC 40% ( 40% might be too kind)
TR Trickster Rogue = DPS class doing 85% damage ,15% CC ( shadow image, blind, stun, daze etc skills)
GWF Great weapon fighter = DPS class doing 70% damage, 30% crowd control ( kiteing, knockdown stun snare threat etc)
R ranger = DPS class doing about 85% damage, 15% CC ( snare, root shot, stun etc) YES this is a guess from my research and what I see as a trend.
Anyhow this is how I have seen abd tested and this is how I see the classes. all the new and weird names to classes....have no place and honestly do not fit.
I look forward to maybe chatting in game with you. I value your opinion.
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silknightMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 199
edited April 2013
We'll see come tomorrow. Betas are as betas go. I've seen classes changed prelaunch at the flip of a coin, I've seen theory crafters claim one thing and then find out completely different. But ultimately, we'll see what it's like in game, I'm just hoping for a striker is all. But I'm down with specialization allowing it to sacrifice damage for defense.
That's just not my thing, and offers nothing to my DPS centric play style.
Hey Roninthehood, and others that might want to read this stuff!
First off thank you for the compliments. I am old school too, in fact, too much so to list here.
To put things in your terms yes, definitely the GWF is a DPS. Not a striker though because they really have to work hard to do single target damage. In Neverwinter game terms they are a defender/ controller. In MMO tinity terms the are a Tank / DPS (and if you make the distinction, controller).
The thing is, in some ways they are more of a controller than anything, because no matter what you do, you will have control elements in your powers. You can gain single target damage at the cost of AoE damage, decent for soloing or possibly PvP but I would not do it for PvE group play at all. You can also be the best AoE damage in the game. You can even do that with some tanking elements still in place if you want to. You will not sacrifice much damage to be able to be an off tank type in end game. There is also another trade off in overall offense versus tanking.
So really it is like the class has two slider bars. As you increase one aspect, the other will decline. Some builds will be better for solo, group, or pvp play. But here is the two sliders.
Offense | Defense
AoE Dmg and Control | Single Target Dmg
Here is the kicker though. The scales do not move at equal rates IMO. If these sliders were to go from 1 to 10 I personally feel that the following is pretty true.
If you make a 10 offense build it is going to be about a 2 in defense. If you make an 8 offense build it is going to be about a 6 in defense. If you drop to a 7 in offense, you are likely to be about an 8 in defense. The same holds true on damage for AoE versus single target. In order to increase your single target damage you pay a much heavier price in both AoE damage and control effects. To some degrees you can emphasis control as well but you really don't lose a ton of damage in the process. There is also a couple of big trade off skills on defense verses damage but it is pretty situation dependent and not overall the feel I get for the class.
This is just my opinion so far on the class, I am sure it may change later. But I feel like giving up a little in offense, in say taking Con over Dex as a secondary stat to Str, along with a few non damage choices in feats and a power set that features AoE and control damage over single target, I feel that is the strongest overall build for PvE group play, hands down. That is not to knock people focusing all out on damage, but I really think they are trying to make the GWF a Barbarian, which is a true AoE striker, and when they come in they are going to blow us away in damage. At that point the offense only GWF are going to struggle to find groups because they just cannot, nor ever will, match up with them in a damage only role. The Barbarian does AoE and single target damage without any trade off. No control elements, not much defense, but they will pretty much obsolete the GWF "damage only" builds and I would wager that is not too far down the road.
So I this is why I talk about those that want to be a striker or "DPS only" class should play the trickster rogue. It is the only true striker class in the game, and as such it will be the best damage role class in the game until they add Scourge Warlocks, Tempest Rangers, Barbarians, and others, but even then it will hang with them and compete. I am not trying to tell anyone how to play at all. I just am going to hate to see all that disappointment and grief down the line when the ten ton heavy thing falls on them. The GWF is absolutely a defender / controller. Any players that ignores the defender and control (not the AoE damage but the actual control power stuff) aspects of the GWF are setting themselves up for a pretty hard fall down the road.
We'll see come tomorrow. Betas are as betas go. I've seen classes changed prelaunch at the flip of a coin, I've seen theory crafters claim one thing and then find out completely different. But ultimately, we'll see what it's like in game, I'm just hoping for a striker is all. But I'm down with specialization allowing it to sacrifice damage for defense.
That's just not my thing, and offers nothing to my DPS centric play style.
I think we are all learning here, I absolutely am not pretending to be an authority. I just want to give people food for thought. Pause and evaluate it, if you think I am off base I sure don't take it personal. If there is one thing that is absolutely true it is that there is always more ways than one to skin a dragon.
We'll see come tomorrow. Betas are as betas go. I've seen classes changed prelaunch at the flip of a coin, I've seen theory crafters claim one thing and then find out completely different. But ultimately, we'll see what it's like in game, I'm just hoping for a striker is all. But I'm down with specialization allowing it to sacrifice damage for defense.
That's just not my thing, and offers nothing to my DPS centric play style.
While Neverwinter Online is not fully a 4th edition direct translation I feel the need to speak up here as well. This is not to be misconstrued as me tooting my own horn in any sense of the way I am in the alpha and as such I have been able to try out quite a few things. Sadly the NDA prevents me from saying much but I can say that the GWF plays very well in a Defender role. While the class is very capable of dealing damage as well I do not feel it is the same like the TR. You can focus completely on damage via the Destroyer feats and focus on STR and DEX and deal a hefty amount of damage. My playstyle, however, feels like it's just trying to turn the GFW into a "glass cannon". While the GWF turns quite destructive, it is also very fragile.
This is by no means "wrong". It simply just is not for me. Now I have been trying this formula out at high levels going with focus on the Sentinel feats where Daring Shout and Sure Strike builds threat and also going for heavy defensive feats that increases Defense stats, AC, deflection and so on and so forth. This makes me VERY durable. Especially with the feat that allows you to become immune to ALL damage for 3/4/5 seconds after using a Daily power.
If anyone is looking to play the GWF as a heavy hitting monster I'm not to argue, go right ahead because that works great as well. My personal preference would be to go down the more durable defender role. Which is an extremely viable route.
While Neverwinter Online is not fully a 4th edition direct translation...
Thanks Voide,
I am thinking that my build will be something like a 6 in offense and a 8 in tanking. I will post it somewhere here in the barracks after CB4 and you can share some thoughts with me I definitely am leaning defender over offense.
My personal opinion is that Argantis is correct in his overall assessment of the GWF. Everything you can find about the GWF (I've read everything and watching every video I could find) and including our own play testing points to a class that in an optimal form would strive for a balance between offense and defense.
However, it's obvious you can choose to go entirely offensive with this class. If that is what you choose to do, so be it, go right ahead and do this. I doubt anybody from the forums environment will tell anybody how they must play. That would be ridiculousness.
But I will suggest to you, that if you go entirely offensive, you'll find that the class is going to be taking a lot of damage in order to deliver any damage. The only anytime active defensive mechanic is to sprint away from an attack. So this means, if you have agro or fight multiple foes, you WILL be taking a shot in order to deliver a shot. So if you're going all offensive, you know exactly what's going to happen to your health bar when it's your turn to take a shot. Just don't blame us or the developers because you get hit too hard in order to do your HIGH damage. That's your decision.
Now, if your intent is to completely stay out of the way of any damage, which is impossible, but for arguments sake let's say this is your intent. Then you'll probably try to be standing behind your target the entire time, while I assume a Guardian holds agro and you may find yourself dps'ing next to a Rogue. Think about this for a second. Now, prepare yourself for embarrassment.
The Rogue does high DPS but his claim to fame is doing high DPS while not taking any damage, avoiding damage. He roams around stealthed, puts up fake targets and use whatever other bag of tricks they have (I don't play one).
The GWF does damage but in order to do so, they are in harms way and their only way to mitigate damage is from passive resistances. You can't sprint and attack, lol. So I'll state it again, if you want to ignore your passive resistances, that elite mob will love swiping at you. So far, from my perspectives, you won't be able to get your DPS soo high that you'll be taking minor damage as result from destroying your target *that* fast. If you believe I'm wrong and the others on here are wrong, that's ok, we wish you the best of luck !!
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silknightMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 199
edited April 2013
I really don't like the changes.
0
rockxoonMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 23Arc User
edited April 2013
after the nerfs GWF is nothing more than time wast
a class that in an optimal form would strive for a balance between offense and defense
I agree.
I tried a pure dmg build but it was literally unplayable and very frustrating without a cleric companion. It became much better with a cleric but still felt quite odd.
However, after putting in the +15% deflect passive, getting a few more defense feats instead of offensive ones and swapping out some gear pieces it already felt much more balanced to me.
I am still managing just fine despite the changes. The only thing that has been bothering me however is the fact that Punishing Charge is quite late level.
I am still managing just fine despite the changes. The only thing that has been bothering me however is the fact that Punishing Charge is quite late level.
Hi there, if you truly feel that way then please sign my petition, the link is in my signature below. Thank you.
"There are more things in heaven and earth,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
Not a problem mate. I just think it makes it easier for the Devs to see a more unified thread vocalizing our discontent for the change, but it also is good mentioning it anywhere else too.
"There are more things in heaven and earth,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
0
zardoz007Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 2Arc User
edited April 2013
Well after this weekend I have my Answer as to the Role a GWF is a tank or Dps and the answer is Neither.
The have been Nerfed Far too much. After level 30 a Cleric Companion stops cutting it, I dont go into lair dungeons without 99 potions and that stopped when I could no longer afford portions. And I build my GWF tough, High con High defense that talent that turns defense into Power.
Well after this weekend I have my Answer as to the Role a GWF is a tank or Dps and the answer is Neither.
The have been Nerfed Far too much. After level 30 a Cleric Companion stops cutting it, I dont go into lair dungeons without 99 potions and that stopped when I could no longer afford portions. And I build my GWF tough, High con High defense that talent that turns defense into Power.
No mobility,
No Armor,
No Damage,
GWF is dead, TY Cryptic
I'm not sure how you built your GWF but I have managed to survive just fine. I didn't need to grab 99 potions like you mentioned you did. Perhaps share what Feat choices you went as well as items?
atm gwf isnt great in any way they are not good as dps or tank even gf isnt good as tank ,so in the end game dps will only mater so tr or warlock when they ad him
I had amazing success with my build. I will post something soon but right now I just don't have the go juice. I wrote everything out, it is 29.5k words, the forum limits me to 25k. LoL yeah I think I have to find a better, shorter, way to say it.
Edit: Ahh hell here I uploaded a video of me fighting in the Chasm solo. I don't recall potting in combat, a couple times after to get my HP topped. Was still the old HAMSTER from lower zones so I was just trying to burn through them. I already had a full stack of 99 bigger ones. Please excuse the frame drops and non wide screen monitor. I chose to become a founder over getting a wide screen. :P
Comments
In the group roles it is pretty clear, there is no need to change any of this for the sake of an MMO.
That being said I do also see where our opinions vary so much. Im an old gamer. I did DnD at about 14 when it was first intro'd to the world. Ive read every book multi times of every style through the years. I will never adjust to the many off and weird names people of the last few years put on classes. To me there is 1; DPS ( who can use a small amount of cc ) 2; Heals ( that can also dps and do a small amount of cc) 3; Tank ( this is threat control, some damage, crowd control , team protection skills, damage midigantion)4: crowd controller( can of course do some dps maybe even some heals but focused on CC. ) there is no other classes and I put this into everygame that has ever came out. One example to use as a hybred game is GW2. there is no classes there. all classes can be pretty much all classes which is not DnD. there are more games such as this so I will give only this example. when someone says something like " I read in the 7th book of 4th edition about a skill that is refered too twice as a defender skill then it makes..................". nuff said. This new mmo game that is roughly and barely roughly based on the general rules of DnD 4th E is not the textbook of 4th E... not even close.
DC devote cleric = HEALER class that heals (ROUGHLY)50%, dps 30%, CC 20%
GF Guardian fighter = TANK class that tanks mobs(controlling the enemys and aborbing their hits)70%, DPS 20%, regular cc 10%
CW control wizard = DPS class doing a good damage 60%, CC 40% ( 40% might be too kind)
TR Trickster Rogue = DPS class doing 85% damage ,15% CC ( shadow image, blind, stun, daze etc skills)
GWF Great weapon fighter = DPS class doing 70% damage, 30% crowd control ( kiteing, knockdown stun snare threat etc)
R ranger = DPS class doing about 85% damage, 15% CC ( snare, root shot, stun etc) YES this is a guess from my research and what I see as a trend.
Anyhow this is how I have seen abd tested and this is how I see the classes. all the new and weird names to classes....have no place and honestly do not fit.
I look forward to maybe chatting in game with you. I value your opinion.
That's just not my thing, and offers nothing to my DPS centric play style.
First off thank you for the compliments. I am old school too, in fact, too much so to list here.
To put things in your terms yes, definitely the GWF is a DPS. Not a striker though because they really have to work hard to do single target damage. In Neverwinter game terms they are a defender/ controller. In MMO tinity terms the are a Tank / DPS (and if you make the distinction, controller).
The thing is, in some ways they are more of a controller than anything, because no matter what you do, you will have control elements in your powers. You can gain single target damage at the cost of AoE damage, decent for soloing or possibly PvP but I would not do it for PvE group play at all. You can also be the best AoE damage in the game. You can even do that with some tanking elements still in place if you want to. You will not sacrifice much damage to be able to be an off tank type in end game. There is also another trade off in overall offense versus tanking.
So really it is like the class has two slider bars. As you increase one aspect, the other will decline. Some builds will be better for solo, group, or pvp play. But here is the two sliders.
Offense | Defense
AoE Dmg and Control | Single Target Dmg
Here is the kicker though. The scales do not move at equal rates IMO. If these sliders were to go from 1 to 10 I personally feel that the following is pretty true.
If you make a 10 offense build it is going to be about a 2 in defense. If you make an 8 offense build it is going to be about a 6 in defense. If you drop to a 7 in offense, you are likely to be about an 8 in defense. The same holds true on damage for AoE versus single target. In order to increase your single target damage you pay a much heavier price in both AoE damage and control effects. To some degrees you can emphasis control as well but you really don't lose a ton of damage in the process. There is also a couple of big trade off skills on defense verses damage but it is pretty situation dependent and not overall the feel I get for the class.
This is just my opinion so far on the class, I am sure it may change later. But I feel like giving up a little in offense, in say taking Con over Dex as a secondary stat to Str, along with a few non damage choices in feats and a power set that features AoE and control damage over single target, I feel that is the strongest overall build for PvE group play, hands down. That is not to knock people focusing all out on damage, but I really think they are trying to make the GWF a Barbarian, which is a true AoE striker, and when they come in they are going to blow us away in damage. At that point the offense only GWF are going to struggle to find groups because they just cannot, nor ever will, match up with them in a damage only role. The Barbarian does AoE and single target damage without any trade off. No control elements, not much defense, but they will pretty much obsolete the GWF "damage only" builds and I would wager that is not too far down the road.
So I this is why I talk about those that want to be a striker or "DPS only" class should play the trickster rogue. It is the only true striker class in the game, and as such it will be the best damage role class in the game until they add Scourge Warlocks, Tempest Rangers, Barbarians, and others, but even then it will hang with them and compete. I am not trying to tell anyone how to play at all. I just am going to hate to see all that disappointment and grief down the line when the ten ton heavy thing falls on them. The GWF is absolutely a defender / controller. Any players that ignores the defender and control (not the AoE damage but the actual control power stuff) aspects of the GWF are setting themselves up for a pretty hard fall down the road.
I think we are all learning here, I absolutely am not pretending to be an authority. I just want to give people food for thought. Pause and evaluate it, if you think I am off base I sure don't take it personal. If there is one thing that is absolutely true it is that there is always more ways than one to skin a dragon.
While Neverwinter Online is not fully a 4th edition direct translation I feel the need to speak up here as well. This is not to be misconstrued as me tooting my own horn in any sense of the way I am in the alpha and as such I have been able to try out quite a few things. Sadly the NDA prevents me from saying much but I can say that the GWF plays very well in a Defender role. While the class is very capable of dealing damage as well I do not feel it is the same like the TR. You can focus completely on damage via the Destroyer feats and focus on STR and DEX and deal a hefty amount of damage. My playstyle, however, feels like it's just trying to turn the GFW into a "glass cannon". While the GWF turns quite destructive, it is also very fragile.
This is by no means "wrong". It simply just is not for me. Now I have been trying this formula out at high levels going with focus on the Sentinel feats where Daring Shout and Sure Strike builds threat and also going for heavy defensive feats that increases Defense stats, AC, deflection and so on and so forth. This makes me VERY durable. Especially with the feat that allows you to become immune to ALL damage for 3/4/5 seconds after using a Daily power.
If anyone is looking to play the GWF as a heavy hitting monster I'm not to argue, go right ahead because that works great as well. My personal preference would be to go down the more durable defender role. Which is an extremely viable route.
Thanks Voide,
I am thinking that my build will be something like a 6 in offense and a 8 in tanking. I will post it somewhere here in the barracks after CB4 and you can share some thoughts with me
However, it's obvious you can choose to go entirely offensive with this class. If that is what you choose to do, so be it, go right ahead and do this. I doubt anybody from the forums environment will tell anybody how they must play. That would be ridiculousness.
But I will suggest to you, that if you go entirely offensive, you'll find that the class is going to be taking a lot of damage in order to deliver any damage. The only anytime active defensive mechanic is to sprint away from an attack. So this means, if you have agro or fight multiple foes, you WILL be taking a shot in order to deliver a shot. So if you're going all offensive, you know exactly what's going to happen to your health bar when it's your turn to take a shot. Just don't blame us or the developers because you get hit too hard in order to do your HIGH damage. That's your decision.
Now, if your intent is to completely stay out of the way of any damage, which is impossible, but for arguments sake let's say this is your intent. Then you'll probably try to be standing behind your target the entire time, while I assume a Guardian holds agro and you may find yourself dps'ing next to a Rogue. Think about this for a second. Now, prepare yourself for embarrassment.
The Rogue does high DPS but his claim to fame is doing high DPS while not taking any damage, avoiding damage. He roams around stealthed, puts up fake targets and use whatever other bag of tricks they have (I don't play one).
The GWF does damage but in order to do so, they are in harms way and their only way to mitigate damage is from passive resistances. You can't sprint and attack, lol. So I'll state it again, if you want to ignore your passive resistances, that elite mob will love swiping at you. So far, from my perspectives, you won't be able to get your DPS soo high that you'll be taking minor damage as result from destroying your target *that* fast. If you believe I'm wrong and the others on here are wrong, that's ok, we wish you the best of luck !!
I agree.
I tried a pure dmg build but it was literally unplayable and very frustrating without a cleric companion. It became much better with a cleric but still felt quite odd.
However, after putting in the +15% deflect passive, getting a few more defense feats instead of offensive ones and swapping out some gear pieces it already felt much more balanced to me.
I am still managing just fine despite the changes. The only thing that has been bothering me however is the fact that Punishing Charge is quite late level.
Hi there, if you truly feel that way then please sign my petition, the link is in my signature below. Thank you.
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
I'm not much for petitions.
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
The have been Nerfed Far too much. After level 30 a Cleric Companion stops cutting it, I dont go into lair dungeons without 99 potions and that stopped when I could no longer afford portions. And I build my GWF tough, High con High defense that talent that turns defense into Power.
No mobility,
No Armor,
No Damage,
GWF is dead, TY Cryptic
I'm not sure how you built your GWF but I have managed to survive just fine. I didn't need to grab 99 potions like you mentioned you did. Perhaps share what Feat choices you went as well as items?
Edit: Ahh hell here I uploaded a video of me fighting in the Chasm solo. I don't recall potting in combat, a couple times after to get my HP topped. Was still the old HAMSTER from lower zones so I was just trying to burn through them. I already had a full stack of 99 bigger ones. Please excuse the frame drops and non wide screen monitor. I chose to become a founder over getting a wide screen. :P
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-Nj7WoZ_kU&feature=youtu.be