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Best secondary Ability Score: STR or CHA?

jhozamjhozam Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 44
edited March 2013 in The Thieves' Den
Hi all,
From the caracter sheet panel, listed below the decriptons of the two secondary Ability Scores for the Rogue (for every point above 10):
Strenght -> Damage bonus (+1%), Stamina regen (+1%), DoT damage resistance (+1%)
Charisma -> Combat advantage damage (+1%), Deflection Chance (+1%), Companion stats bonus (+1%)
What do you think is better to increase for the best Rogue build?
In my opinion More STR = more damage always yes (even if you are not in stealth stance), but more CHA = more damage during Combat Advantage = more action points generation = more daylies = more DPS. Is this right?
Jhozam, DDO player since March 2006 (2006-2009 on Devourer server, 2009-2012 on Cannith server)
Proud Officer of Ordo Draconis, DDO Italian Elite Guild
now up on Neverwinter Online, member of Ordo Obscuri Domini, Italian Guild
Post edited by jhozam on

Comments

  • tsurueldultsurueldul Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 4 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    jhozam wrote: »
    Hi all,
    From the caracter sheet panel, listed below the decriptons of the two secondary Ability Scores for the Rogue (for every point above 10):
    Strenght -> Damage bonus (+1%), Stamina regen (+1%), DoT damage resistance (+1%)
    Charisma -> Combat advantage damage (+1%), Deflection Chance (+1%), Companion stats bonus (+1%)
    What do you think is better to increase for the best Rogue build?
    In my opinion More STR = more damage always yes (even if you are not in stealth stance), but more CHA = more damage during Combat Advantage = more action points generation = more daylies = more DPS. Is this right?

    CHA for PVE. STR for PVP
  • sneakycheesessneakycheeses Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 118 Bounty Hunter
    edited March 2013
    tsurueldul wrote: »
    CHA for PVE. STR for PVP
    Seems about right. It's more difficult to get a combat advantage in PvP and you can't use your companions either, so Charisma issort of useless in PvP. But strength gives bonus damage, tankiness, and more regen on your rolls which you'll be using a lot in PvP.
    Brodicus - 60 Trickster Rogue - Dragon
  • fifix92fifix92 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 9 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    I would even say that STR is the unofficial main ability score. 1% Damage > 1% Crit, as a Scoundrel specced rogue is less crit-dependent (don't know yet for the other specs).

    So roll a 16 DEX, 16 STR, 12 CHA! :p
  • jhozamjhozam Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 44
    edited March 2013
    Seems about right. It's more difficult to get a combat advantage in PvP and you can't use your companions either, so Charisma issort of useless in PvP. But strength gives bonus damage, tankiness, and more regen on your rolls which you'll be using a lot in PvP.
    I didn't test the PVP, but why is so difficult to get combat advantage? Cant we use it during the stealth stance? I don't know the stealth mechanics in PVP...
    Jhozam, DDO player since March 2006 (2006-2009 on Devourer server, 2009-2012 on Cannith server)
    Proud Officer of Ordo Draconis, DDO Italian Elite Guild
    now up on Neverwinter Online, member of Ordo Obscuri Domini, Italian Guild
  • warbrwarbr Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 163 Bounty Hunter
    edited March 2013
    Ya I also dont know, I was thinkng in make a Drow rogue cuz of the Dex and Cha bonus, but I also like STR cuz I love to pvp.

    Do you guys really think that CHA will be that useless for PvP?
  • themangroththemangroth Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 104 Bounty Hunter
    edited March 2013
    if you had to choose between str and cha, I'd say str is superior. +1% damage is always applicable, vs +1% combat advantage which is situatonal.

    As for action point generation, it seems more like you generate a certain amount of points per strike rather than per damage dealt. And each class gets rewarded more action points for playing a certain way. For instance, guardian fighters get lots of action points for blocking, and clerics get lots for healing or using divinity, and rogues get lots for attacking from stealth or with combat advantage(and even moreso if you select the appropriate feats)

    If you're in stealth (which automatically grants combat advantage) and hit something with a full deulist's flurry, you can get like 35-50% action points from one attack. If you chain your abilities just right, you can start a fight with almost zero action points, go through 3 stealth cycles, and have full action points before the 3rd cycle ends, hit lurker's assault and maintain it for a decent amount of time, and by the time it ends, your encounter cooldowns are ready again, and have another 3 stealth cycles, and straight back into lurker's assault.


    I only managed to pull that off a couple times with all the dodging out of splat zones and such, but the dungeon I was in when it all kinda clicked, I did like 850K damage, and the nearest dps did like 530K
  • warbrwarbr Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 163 Bounty Hunter
    edited March 2013
    What about make it balanced, like u get a race that have STR bonus and when u get lv 10 u put in CHA, or get a race that have CHA bonus and put in STR when u get lv 10, something like that?
  • fifix92fifix92 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 9 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    warbr wrote: »
    What about make it balanced, like u get a race that have STR bonus and when u get lv 10 u put in CHA, or get a race that have CHA bonus and put in STR when u get lv 10, something like that?

    Nah, like themangroth said, it's better to play STR, as 1% dmg is applicable in every situation.
  • kojekoje Member Posts: 39 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    I agree on Str > Cha and maybe even better than Dex (which is part of the problem with the way they changed ability scores from 4E).

    However, since the character creator forces you to make your primary ability the hightest, I plan to roll the 16, 16, 12 array and go with a Half-Orc for +2 in Dex & Str to start with 18 in each and add to those as I level. My CHA will be HAMSTER but I'd rather have the flat damage boost all the time over the CA only boost even in PVE. Besides, low CHA for a Half-Orc just seems right :)
  • prunetracyprunetracy Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    We'd need someone to research how combat advantage damage is calculated to know for sure which is better for damage.

    Here's some possible formula with implications for each: (these all assume you're getting CA, as not having CA means str is clearly better)

    If the STR bonus is determined before CA is taken into account:
    ca_damage = (base + str_bonus) + (ca_bonus + cha_bonus): CHA bonus is additive, STR and CHA are equal
    ca_damage = (base + str_bonus) + (ca_bonus * cha_bonus): CHA bonus is multiplicative on CA bonus only, STR is stronger (unlikely)
    ca_damage = [(base + str_bonus) + (ca_bonus)] * cha_bonus : CHA bonus is multiplicative on all damage during CA, CHA is stronger

    If the STR bonus is determined after CA is taken into account:
    ca_damage = str_bonus * [base + (ca_bonus + cha_bonus)] : CHA is additive with CA, STR is stronger
    ca_damage = str_bonus * [base + (ca_bonus * cha_bonus)] : CHA is multiplicative on CA bonus only, STR is stronger (unlikely)
    ca_damage = str_bonus * [base + ca_bonus] * cha_bonus : CHA is multiplicative on all CA damage, STR = CHA.

    It's also possible that the bonus from STR isn't applied at all during CA (if the game checks whether you're in CA or not, and uses STR vs. CHA as your damage bonus accordingly), in which case CHA is obviously better.

    If CHA is better than STR during CA, then you'd have to weigh how often you're getting CA into which stat you prefer. If CHA isn't better than STR during CA, STR is always better for damage, and you should focus on that if that's what you care about.

    If you care about the other effects of CHA and STR, you'll have to weigh those benefits accordingly.
  • warbrwarbr Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 163 Bounty Hunter
    edited March 2013
    Ya I wanted to make my drow, but everyting is telling me that Half-orc will be better =/
  • prunetracyprunetracy Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    warbr wrote: »
    Ya I wanted to make my drow, but everyting is telling me that Half-orc will be better =/

    Only very slightly, if at all. We haven't seen the actual numbers for the Drow racials yet (not talking about ability mods). Whatever the difference might be between 2 STR and 2 CHA, it isn't a lot. It's a small enough number to be absorbed in the RNG, and is greatly eclipsed by the player's skill in maximizing damage and combat uptime.

    So if you want a Drow, make a Drow.
  • themangroththemangroth Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 104 Bounty Hunter
    edited March 2013
    prunetracy wrote: »
    Only very slightly, if at all. We haven't seen the actual numbers for the Drow racials yet (not talking about ability mods). Whatever the difference might be between 2 STR and 2 CHA, it isn't a lot. It's a small enough number to be absorbed in the RNG, and is greatly eclipsed by the player's skill in maximizing damage and combat uptime.

    So if you want a Drow, make a Drow.

    This. The stat bonus difference between Drow having +Cha, and Half-Orcs having +Str won't be game changing. It comes down to flavor. I detest elves, and especially drow because of all the legolas/drizzt fanboys out there, so half-orc was a no brainer.

    Besides, the way the trickster rogue plays reminds me almost of a swashbuckler or melee swift hunter (I still play pre-Bo9S 3.5e), so half-orc isn't all that blasphemous when you look at it that way.
  • warbrwarbr Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 163 Bounty Hunter
    edited March 2013
    prunetracy wrote: »
    Only very slightly, if at all. We haven't seen the actual numbers for the Drow racials yet (not talking about ability mods). Whatever the difference might be between 2 STR and 2 CHA, it isn't a lot. It's a small enough number to be absorbed in the RNG, and is greatly eclipsed by the player's skill in maximizing damage and combat uptime.

    So if you want a Drow, make a Drow.
    Ya I will think better about that for sure when I can actually check the Drow.
  • jhozamjhozam Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 44
    edited March 2013
    prunetracy wrote: »
    We'd need someone to research how combat advantage damage is calculated to know for sure which is better for damage.

    Here's some possible formula with implications for each: (these all assume you're getting CA, as not having CA means str is clearly better)

    If the STR bonus is determined before CA is taken into account:
    ca_damage = (base + str_bonus) + (ca_bonus + cha_bonus): CHA bonus is additive, STR and CHA are equal
    ca_damage = (base + str_bonus) + (ca_bonus * cha_bonus): CHA bonus is multiplicative on CA bonus only, STR is stronger (unlikely)
    ca_damage = [(base + str_bonus) + (ca_bonus)] : CHA bonus is multiplicative on all damage during CA, CHA is stronger

    If the STR bonus is determined after CA is taken into account:
    ca_damage = str_bonus * [base + (ca_bonus + cha_bonus)] : CHA is additive with CA, STR is stronger
    ca_damage = str_bonus * [base + (ca_bonus * cha_bonus)] : CHA is multiplicative on CA bonus only, STR is stronger (unlikely)
    ca_damage = str_bonus * [base + ca_bonus] * cha_bonus : CHA is multiplicative on all CA damage, STR = CHA.

    It's also possible that the bonus from STR isn't applied at all during CA (if the game checks whether you're in CA or not, and uses STR vs. CHA as your damage bonus accordingly), in which case CHA is obviously better.

    If CHA is better than STR during CA, then you'd have to weigh how often you're getting CA into which stat you prefer. If CHA isn't better than STR during CA, STR is always better for damage, and you should focus on that if that's what you care about.

    If you care about the other effects of CHA and STR, you'll have to weigh those benefits accordingly.
    Nice math! I hope we can soon know how the damage will be calculated to do the precise considerations
    Jhozam, DDO player since March 2006 (2006-2009 on Devourer server, 2009-2012 on Cannith server)
    Proud Officer of Ordo Draconis, DDO Italian Elite Guild
    now up on Neverwinter Online, member of Ordo Obscuri Domini, Italian Guild
  • kimoy8520kimoy8520 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Wait, how do you know that you are on combat advantage?
  • quorforgedquorforged Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    kimoy8520 wrote: »
    Wait, how do you know that you are on combat advantage?

    Orange damage numbers.

    Also, if you look at your target, the circle under their feat indicates combat advantage:

    It shows what angle you should be attacking from to gain combat advantage from flanking, and that area glows purple if you are positioned correctly.

    Or, if you inherently get combat advantage from something like Dazing strike, the whole circle turns purple.
  • kimoy8520kimoy8520 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    How about the critical damage? And those sword icon beside the number?
  • quorforgedquorforged Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    kimoy8520 wrote: »
    How about the critical damage? And those sword icon beside the number?

    Crits are the lightning bolts. I don't know what the sword is.
  • jendrynjendryn Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users Posts: 53
    edited March 2013
    I was under the impression that the sword indicated combat advantage, not orange text. I played around with this mostly on the GWF I leveled by moving in and out of flanking positioning.

    As to race selection, keep in mind the relative strength of the human racial; namely, the 3 additional heroic feat points, which will be spent most effectively in the fourth tier of heroic feats. With it, you can gain 12% additional stealth duration if you opt for the 9% additional at-will damage by default, or vice versa. Essentially, you will be able to have the full 20% additional duration on stealth as well as +9% at-will damage on enemies not targeting you.

    Of course, you can distribute those 3 feat points elsewhere if you so desire, but I am quite certain the above option is the most viable strictly in terms of DPS.

    As has been stated previously, this only matters if you care to min-max over picking whichever race suits you best. At the end of the day, racials will play a small role, and you should go with your first choice!
  • kotlikotli Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 577
    edited March 2013
    Orange is not CA unless you think a GWF attacking from the front has CA. Dunno what what symbol or colour is CA really need a manual or guide with this info.
  • sepheresephere Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    jendryn wrote: »
    I was under the impression that the sword indicated combat advantage, not orange text. I played around with this mostly on the GWF I leveled by moving in and out of flanking positioning.

    As to race selection, keep in mind the relative strength of the human racial; namely, the 3 additional heroic feat points, which will be spent most effectively in the fourth tier of heroic feats. With it, you can gain 12% additional stealth duration if you opt for the 9% additional at-will damage by default, or vice versa. Essentially, you will be able to have the full 20% additional duration on stealth as well as +9% at-will damage on enemies not targeting you.

    Of course, you can distribute those 3 feat points elsewhere if you so desire, but I am quite certain the above option is the most viable strictly in terms of DPS.

    As has been stated previously, this only matters if you care to min-max over picking whichever race suits you best. At the end of the day, racials will play a small role, and you should go with your first choice!


    I kinda thought it was strange that human feats seemed so much more useful than the others, because of extra feats,
    but maybe they make up for it by looking almost boring/normal in comparison?


    _____
    In reference to the op's secondary stat STR/CHA and which is better,
    it's simple,
    choose STR if you're not going to focus on stealth and want to melee more normally (but rogue style normal),
    and choose CHA if you want the deflection and stealth/backstabbing style focus (the more sneaky style)

    That's how I specced in the game anyway (I chose sneaky CHA style) and it seemed to work well,
    but that's cause sneak is what I focused on feat/skill-wise,
    if you choose more melee durable feat-skill-wise, STR should work equally well for it
    Just depends on what you want to focus on with skills and feats


    ---
    if you're not sure about what gives your class combat advantage, I'm pretty sure that hovering over the dice-looking symbol (the one that fills up in order to use your two special abilities),
    gives a tooltip that tells you,
    allthough it's not very detailed, though
    (could be wrong about that though)
  • valadilvaladil Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 33
    edited March 2013
    I would think that Str is better than CHR unless you are spending more than half of your time in combat advantage (eg behind the mob or in stealth). Not only does STR increase your overall dmg, it also makes you take a little less dmg and allows you to dodge more often, thus helping avoid those pesky red circles of death.
    Valadil - Eq2/WoW/DDO/WAR
    Praesumo in Obscurum
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