clerics are fine? my god man the only good attack they have is on a 15 second cooldown and does half the damage of 3 other classes strongest attack. heals are 50% less effective on ourselves and we don't even have the ability to stun without going out of the way in feats to get it which lowers our damage even more. how are they fine when they are always the first to die in every party unless they DON'T use anything but the lance to fight.
people yell for clerics to heal when bosses do the massive aoe that fills the whole room because they want to save their pots and then if a cleric does throw out 1 small heal they spam their pots and use 30 pots the rest of the fight trying to stay alive while the other party members use about 5.
Clerics are broken, they won't fix them cause they don't care (welcome to PWE gameplay) they will just make the warlock and move on. you'll have to find the "best" character when all their nerfing is over and hope that the whole game community doesn't decide to play it too.
Skill based combat is all fine and good but if you have enough skill to play a broken cleric the way it is now you don't need the party you can solo that dungeon without them cause you have 90% of the enemies on you in the first place.
Oh Atari how I miss you!
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pineappleghostMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 26Arc User
we don't even have the ability to stun without going out of the way in feats to get it which lowers our damage even more.
Channeling Divinity with Break the Spirit makes it stun. I have had a feeling since BW2 that most clerics don't use anything more than Daunting Light, Chains, Healing Word, Sun Burst, and Bastion of Health.
You realise that to get a stun we need to push two buttons...when chances are the prime moment has gone for laying down that needed stun.
Stuns are usually a quick use skill.
exactly if you have to like use it after doing a long set of skills what's the point when in the time you take to use the stun you could have already killed the monster with another skill? that's as stupid as a healing potion that only works out of combat near a campfire when your at 100% health.
Oh Atari how I miss you!
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frost168Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
juiceboxjunkyMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited March 2013
Generally in games, correct me if I am wrong, the fact that healers don't need to pot as much is balanced by the fact that the other classes can farm/level way faster.
What is the point of the cleric currently.
Can't kill half as fast/ Okay I'm cool with this. We have heals right? Gumming through things is fine if you have heals right?
Oh wait, they don't want us healing for much. I am gumming through the content rather then making a rogue with a cleric companion why?
Oh, I know what our point is, to reduce the amount others pot, while doubling how much we pot. I am sorry, it just seems to me that they really did not think these changes through.
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l1zardo1Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited March 2013
I am pretty sure he's talking about the current build in CB... its just his whole audience played a different build this weekend.
they mess up the class worse and worse each beta event by release the cleric will heal for 1 point have no attacks and lose 500 health per second outside of combat... balanced!
devs have lost what little minds they had.
Oh Atari how I miss you!
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lanessar13Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, SilverstarsPosts: 8Arc User
edited March 2013
Adding my hat to the ring.
I'll wait until I see the reduction actually at 50%, and see how power/crit factor into things, before I panic. I do understand the devs basic standpoint, but I just feel they are going to end up eating crow on this one. It's really a sloppy way to deal with the problem, a blanket "less healing for you".
Increased armor (chain) alone isn't enough to mitigate damage (solo).
Rogues mitigation is damage output and stealth, and it works really well.
Control wizards mitigate damage via pushback and control. This works relatively well, but is weak early on.
Guardian Warriors migitate damage via armor (defense) and blocking ability.
Great weapon fighters get mitigation via more damage from taking damage, and avoidance. This starts off pretty badly and becomes much better later (mid-30s to 40s)
Devout cleric mitigates damage via little control, a little damage, and used to be healing. It's still there and helps up to the twenties.
Come level 35+, it actually stinks. I personally believe it will get worse after level 35+ to the point where no one wishes to quest as a cleric for the last 15-20 levels. But we shall see what gets fixed or not.
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cwiyk13Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 5Arc User
edited March 2013
I'm willing to overlook the crazy heal-agro issues as they announced that to be a bug and not an intentional change. I'm willing to give the developers the benefit of the doubt that they will work this out before launch.
In regards to the 50% self-heal nerf (which really worked out to be like 65-85%), here is my opinion:
A cleric's heals should affect themselves to the same degree they affect others. This will mean a cleric can solo using fewer (if any) potions. Is this overpowering? No. Other classes have perks which clerics don't: some can do much more dps, some can lock down mobs, some can just take a beating and shrug it off. For their lack to compete in these departments, a cleric should be able to heal, both themselves and others, very very well. If this ability is permanently crippled, what exactly will entice people to choose to play a cleric? Mediocre dps in comparison to striker class? Mediocre control compared to controller classes?
I said this in another thread but I'll say it here too because I believe it's pertinent to cleric class balance:
"Regarding Cleric self heals, they will likely remain fairly minor for the Cleric. This is to help balance the fact that Clerics don't need to use as many health potions as other classes. Before the self heal reduction, Clerics would pretty much always have more gold than all other classes."
Correct, gold will have very limited purpose. But they aren't really concerned that clerics will have more gold than other classes. They are concerned that clerics are using less potions. If they're using less potions, they're less inclined to pay real-life money to purchase the consumable full-health item in the Zen store. This is their real concern.
It isn't about class balance, it isn't about trying to create a new paradigm in class designs. Its about determining what will affect their profits. A cleric class that can keep their own health and their group's health above zero without resorting to using an item that cost real-life money isn't something they want in their game.
Call me jaded, but after BW3 and learning about the $10-$15 purchasable 200 charge full-heal item in Zen store, that's just my opinion about this situation.
ok so now a rogue that crafts potions that doesnt' use any money cause their pots are free will make the most money in the game... balance?
the whole idea of nerfing a class because they make more money is stupid because there are hundreds of ways to make money does it mean we remove all the ways to make it balanced?
What stopped a rogue or wizard from rolling a cleric alt to farm money to buy pots for their main character?
what's the point of this whole entire pot argument?
consider that only 4 items in the entire game besides the trash gear that was common took gold to buy (pots, companions, mounts, extra bag space) the rest took astral diamonds. is the healer going to make enough money in 1 hour to buy a bag slot that took 10k G to buy each? don't think so they saved only like 2G per day its not that much of a difference in money saved to healing needed.
It was a stupid idea and needs to be undone. the person that needs the heals the most is the healer and tank which will always be the 2 with the arggo.
the solution would be... make the shared healing that happens (when you heal someone you get 50% of that back healing you) and when you heal YOURSELF you get 100% of the affect. this way the tab power channeled heal won't be an OP heal on you and only 2 of your heals can be used to give you health at 100%
I too believe its bout the company making money... its a PWE company now which all games become PAY TO WIN!
Oh Atari how I miss you!
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flacidcaliberMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 1Arc User
edited March 2013
My friend and I were just in the Beta this past weekend and leveled a guardian and cleric up to 40. We had the same issue with my friend (Cleric) taking all the aggro. He is an experienced cleric through quite a few mmo's and he had never had this problem. If he used one heal the entire mob would aggro on him and the rest of the fight he would just run around the room dashing left and right trying to heal in between. It made for an unpleasent experience for the most part. I really hope they increase the healing and lower the threat on clerics. If not then I know ill be spending all my gold on potions.
Oh btw you did a good job of explaining the issues with the class this point. Thanks!
As I said in another post, healing is a form of mitigation. If clerics were too op with their self healing, then reduce their defense or amount received from potions to compensate. As it stands clerics have their core mechanics nerfed for self use, whereas all the other classes have no change in their mitigation mechanics solo or group. If pots and zen store items are the primary heals of the game, then why have healers? If the game uses a primary solo model for leveling, then why play a class that is replaced by cheap in game items (and cash shop items) and has their core mechanic reduced for self use? I see no tank, cc, or dps pots/items that are cheap and useable like healing pots. I see no reduction in tank mitigation when solo. I see no controller cc reduction when solo. I see no dps damage reduction when solo. Why healing reduction to self for clerics when solo?
As I said in another post, healing is a form of mitigation. If clerics were too op with their self healing, then reduce their defense or amount received from potions to compensate. As it stands clerics have their core mechanics nerfed for self use, whereas all the other classes have no change in their mitigation mechanics solo or group. If pots and zen store items are the primary heals of the game, then why have healers? If the game uses a primary solo model for leveling, then why play a class that is replaced by cheap in game items (and cash shop items) and has their core mechanic reduced for self use? I see no tank, cc, or dps pots/items that are cheap and useable like healing pots. I see no reduction in tank mitigation when solo. I see no controller cc reduction when solo. I see no dps damage reduction when solo. Why healing reduction to self for clerics when solo?
Cheers!
again easy explanation... money
everyone needs heals. make in game skills suck, pots are too expensive to keep buying, so they make it that way so you spend real life money to buy cash shop healing items that heal for 100% of your health...
PAY TO WIN.... that is the answer to all perfect world games.
healing will always get you aggro... and when your only mitigation is your self healing, you really need it to work.. when that ability is being nerfed by 50+%, and you don't get more defense to resists all that damage, something is very wrong..
and this is not taking into account the aggro bug...
you can't have a game where you say you won't rely on healers, but still make them rely on healers....
also, with the self heal the way it is, all the more reason to have 2 healers in each group, so they can heal each other... thereby gimping the group more, and locking other classes out of group spots...
not a bright move...
--- I loved clerics in this game --- <--- My youtube video. [R.I.P good cleric now they nerfed our self healing by 50%]
Look forward to my long campaigns and short stories in the foundry upon release.
Comments
people yell for clerics to heal when bosses do the massive aoe that fills the whole room because they want to save their pots and then if a cleric does throw out 1 small heal they spam their pots and use 30 pots the rest of the fight trying to stay alive while the other party members use about 5.
Clerics are broken, they won't fix them cause they don't care (welcome to PWE gameplay) they will just make the warlock and move on. you'll have to find the "best" character when all their nerfing is over and hope that the whole game community doesn't decide to play it too.
Skill based combat is all fine and good but if you have enough skill to play a broken cleric the way it is now you don't need the party you can solo that dungeon without them cause you have 90% of the enemies on you in the first place.
Channeling Divinity with Break the Spirit makes it stun. I have had a feeling since BW2 that most clerics don't use anything more than Daunting Light, Chains, Healing Word, Sun Burst, and Bastion of Health.
You realise that to get a stun we need to push two buttons...when chances are the prime moment has gone for laying down that needed stun.
Stuns are usually a quick use skill.
exactly if you have to like use it after doing a long set of skills what's the point when in the time you take to use the stun you could have already killed the monster with another skill? that's as stupid as a healing potion that only works out of combat near a campfire when your at 100% health.
What is the point of the cleric currently.
Can't kill half as fast/ Okay I'm cool with this. We have heals right? Gumming through things is fine if you have heals right?
Oh wait, they don't want us healing for much. I am gumming through the content rather then making a rogue with a cleric companion why?
Oh, I know what our point is, to reduce the amount others pot, while doubling how much we pot. I am sorry, it just seems to me that they really did not think these changes through.
devs have lost what little minds they had.
I'll wait until I see the reduction actually at 50%, and see how power/crit factor into things, before I panic. I do understand the devs basic standpoint, but I just feel they are going to end up eating crow on this one. It's really a sloppy way to deal with the problem, a blanket "less healing for you".
Increased armor (chain) alone isn't enough to mitigate damage (solo).
Rogues mitigation is damage output and stealth, and it works really well.
Control wizards mitigate damage via pushback and control. This works relatively well, but is weak early on.
Guardian Warriors migitate damage via armor (defense) and blocking ability.
Great weapon fighters get mitigation via more damage from taking damage, and avoidance. This starts off pretty badly and becomes much better later (mid-30s to 40s)
Devout cleric mitigates damage via little control, a little damage, and used to be healing. It's still there and helps up to the twenties.
Come level 35+, it actually stinks. I personally believe it will get worse after level 35+ to the point where no one wishes to quest as a cleric for the last 15-20 levels. But we shall see what gets fixed or not.
In regards to the 50% self-heal nerf (which really worked out to be like 65-85%), here is my opinion:
A cleric's heals should affect themselves to the same degree they affect others. This will mean a cleric can solo using fewer (if any) potions. Is this overpowering? No. Other classes have perks which clerics don't: some can do much more dps, some can lock down mobs, some can just take a beating and shrug it off. For their lack to compete in these departments, a cleric should be able to heal, both themselves and others, very very well. If this ability is permanently crippled, what exactly will entice people to choose to play a cleric? Mediocre dps in comparison to striker class? Mediocre control compared to controller classes?
I said this in another thread but I'll say it here too because I believe it's pertinent to cleric class balance:
Call me jaded, but after BW3 and learning about the $10-$15 purchasable 200 charge full-heal item in Zen store, that's just my opinion about this situation.
the whole idea of nerfing a class because they make more money is stupid because there are hundreds of ways to make money does it mean we remove all the ways to make it balanced?
What stopped a rogue or wizard from rolling a cleric alt to farm money to buy pots for their main character?
what's the point of this whole entire pot argument?
consider that only 4 items in the entire game besides the trash gear that was common took gold to buy (pots, companions, mounts, extra bag space) the rest took astral diamonds. is the healer going to make enough money in 1 hour to buy a bag slot that took 10k G to buy each? don't think so they saved only like 2G per day its not that much of a difference in money saved to healing needed.
It was a stupid idea and needs to be undone. the person that needs the heals the most is the healer and tank which will always be the 2 with the arggo.
the solution would be... make the shared healing that happens (when you heal someone you get 50% of that back healing you) and when you heal YOURSELF you get 100% of the affect. this way the tab power channeled heal won't be an OP heal on you and only 2 of your heals can be used to give you health at 100%
I too believe its bout the company making money... its a PWE company now which all games become PAY TO WIN!
Oh btw you did a good job of explaining the issues with the class this point. Thanks!
Cheers!
again easy explanation... money
everyone needs heals. make in game skills suck, pots are too expensive to keep buying, so they make it that way so you spend real life money to buy cash shop healing items that heal for 100% of your health...
PAY TO WIN.... that is the answer to all perfect world games.
and this is not taking into account the aggro bug...
you can't have a game where you say you won't rely on healers, but still make them rely on healers....
also, with the self heal the way it is, all the more reason to have 2 healers in each group, so they can heal each other... thereby gimping the group more, and locking other classes out of group spots...
not a bright move...
Look forward to my long campaigns and short stories in the foundry upon release.
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