test content
Logo
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc
How to properly argue a point with a game company.
devoneaux
Member Posts: 0 Arc User
Okay so i'm getting a little tired of all the melodramatic threads regarding the Drow, in the effort to maybe change the way some individuals on this forum operate, i'd like to offer an example of a more approachable argument, and why it should be done this way. First, the example:
"To Cryptic, I realize that Neverwinter is your product and that you can do whatever you want with it, that said I disagree with your recent decision regarding the Drow. The Drow race is a cornerstone of the 4e pnp game you are basing Neverwinter off, yet you are delaying them two months for everyone who doesn't pay 200 dollars for the purposes of exclusivity. The problem I have here is that the people who paid 200 bucks already have an exclusive racial background for the Drow, including outfits, skin colors, a unique spell effect, and what not. Does a group of people who already have all this exclusive content need their exclusivity somehow protected from the rest of us?
What of those who had their heart set on the game, but only under the pretense that the Drow race would be available to them (some of which also paying money in support of the game?) I guess this is supposedly due to a marketing mishap, but I don't think this is the right way to handle it. I think that all this will really do is instill a sense of ill will among your general playerbase. Now i'm all for treating the people who pay to support you well, but it generally shouldn't be at the expense of people who might one day become paying customers themselves (or as the case very well may be; people who are already paying customers), so I believe it would be in your best interests to find another way to placate the people who have shown their support for Neverwinter.
Thank you."
Notice the lack of the following:
-sensationalism
-arguments of emotion
-Ad hominem attacks
-disingenuous promises of a compromise that will please all parties
-the lack of a poll (okay this one is more personal preference)
Now if Cryptic has made a decision you disagree with, then by all means argue that you think it's a wrong decision, but do so in a civil manner, yeah? People respond better to a level headed argument than an argument laced with vitriol.
"To Cryptic, I realize that Neverwinter is your product and that you can do whatever you want with it, that said I disagree with your recent decision regarding the Drow. The Drow race is a cornerstone of the 4e pnp game you are basing Neverwinter off, yet you are delaying them two months for everyone who doesn't pay 200 dollars for the purposes of exclusivity. The problem I have here is that the people who paid 200 bucks already have an exclusive racial background for the Drow, including outfits, skin colors, a unique spell effect, and what not. Does a group of people who already have all this exclusive content need their exclusivity somehow protected from the rest of us?
What of those who had their heart set on the game, but only under the pretense that the Drow race would be available to them (some of which also paying money in support of the game?) I guess this is supposedly due to a marketing mishap, but I don't think this is the right way to handle it. I think that all this will really do is instill a sense of ill will among your general playerbase. Now i'm all for treating the people who pay to support you well, but it generally shouldn't be at the expense of people who might one day become paying customers themselves (or as the case very well may be; people who are already paying customers), so I believe it would be in your best interests to find another way to placate the people who have shown their support for Neverwinter.
Thank you."
Notice the lack of the following:
-sensationalism
-arguments of emotion
-Ad hominem attacks
-disingenuous promises of a compromise that will please all parties
-the lack of a poll (okay this one is more personal preference)
Now if Cryptic has made a decision you disagree with, then by all means argue that you think it's a wrong decision, but do so in a civil manner, yeah? People respond better to a level headed argument than an argument laced with vitriol.
Post edited by devoneaux on
0
Comments
I kid, I kid.
To me, I think it is fine to voice opinion, it's another thing to claim your opinion is both objective and absolute.
See the "this isn't D&D because I said so" crowd for the truly zealous and delusional.
It's okay to say, "I don't like this game because it doesn't religiously follow 4e rules".
It is not okay to say, "This definitively isn't D&D, I know because I am an expert and if you disagree you're an idiot." The fact is, no zealous fan decides what is D&D in a vacuum. Your opinion about quality is tolerated, your opinion however doesn't translate into objective fact.
With the Drow topic, it's okay to say, "I do not like this decision." It's even okay to say, "I won't play this game because of this decision".
It's incredibly lame to say, "This game is doomed. Anyone who plays this game, is an idiot. Cryptic is stupid."
The game isn't doomed merely because you say it is. If you and your guild of 20 players aren't going to play, it doesn't mean Cryptic won't survive and even thrive. It may and it may not, but it doesn't hinge on your opinion.
That's where I get frustrated with gaming culture. Their obsession becomes so deep, they delude themselves they actually define the brand. That their point of view is objective truth.
The objective truth is, we do not know if NWO will succeed yet. Those who choose to play it, even without Drow at launch, are not dumber than you are.
The objective truth is, the people who actually decide what D&D is, have decided this is D&D. It has everything that defines D&D to the layman, it just has a variant on the mechanics, to produce an MMO that Cryptic believe will appeal to everyone. You just don't happen to like the variant, which is fine, but doesn't entitle you to proclaim "this isn't D&D, because I said so." Because, quite frankly, you don't get to say so. You never did, you never will.
In other words, voicing personal taste is fine, just don't migrate that opinion into factual proclamations that aren't fact, they are really just an extension of your nerd rage.
Check out SHADOW on YouTube!
btw ryger5, nice post.. I don't think anyone could have said it better
Agree with most but then you had to add opinion.
Show me a post or anything from the Devs that says WoTC had anything do with game mechanics. The only stuff I could find said WoTC was very involved in the lore of the game and not anything else. If WoTC wasn't interested in having players decide what was D&D they wouldn't have opened up the development process of 5e as much as they had, so I would say players do get to say what is D&D. Bah not going to go into what was actually inthose posts of what is D&D because the "truth"
To the OP Hard to stay sane when you want something or feel strongly about something. I know I find it easier to debate something I have no interest in as it keeps my emotions out of it. So to go along with your thoughts. Write it down take a step back and then come back and reread it later. Give yourself some time to calm down. Now If I could just remember to do that myself.
"Dear consumer,
You're going to buy our product anyway, so why should we care? We've filled our quota, so after 2 months everyone will forget about it, and continue to give us money. We'd rather have a few angry customers, than spend ANY amount of extra time, money, or thought into anything.
-sincerely
Any major company"'
A sensible person usually doesnt sue, or go out of their way to give negative press. Its because of this why companies only bend to those that scream the loudest. If you're being civil, they'll simply consider your argument, and move on.
No one remembers what they got for Christmas last year, but they'll remember a punch in the face from any year.
The only people I've seen proclaiming the game is doomed are people who keep trying to put those words into the mouths of people who are bothered by the drow delay.
There are people who won't be playing the game because of this decision. But not of them that I've seen have declared the game is doomed because of it. And yet, they are continually "rebutted" and called overly dramatic for declaring doom.
Kind of interesting, really, that so many strawmen arguments are coming not from the side objecting to the delay, but the side ok with it.
Actually, per the NOCS podcast, it sounds like they have weekly meetings to discuss art assets, game mechanics, and pretty much everything else. I'm sure lore is part of it, but WOTC had input on critters and combat mechanics. And that was from the mouth of the Lead Producer, so...
I'm getting tired of all the crying on this forum period. My daily post count has dropped by nearly 90% in this past month, because every thread is filled with cry babies complaining and crying. And if I say one word to them about stoping crying and going to another thread, my post will get edited. I gave up, this forum is theirs. I just wade threw garbage everyday to find a couple of nuggets of gold.
Best coment in this forum, ever!
Thanks missed the part about game mechanics.
Sadly, I doubt I'll have my post seen by the dev team, much less a Mod or anyone near the team that could show them the idea. Trying to be positive won't get you many views, you have to be negative an enraged. I'd rather find a compromise, a middle road... but I doubt that'll happen. Seen the poll lately? Some are asking for an option that this decision made them spend even more money. I doubt PWE will be willing to back down or change at all, given the fact this decision/lying may make them even MORE moolah.
WotC created a monster with their open d20 license and Paizo with their Pathfinder. Now WotC has real competence in the D&D realm. Allowing players to be involved in the production of 5E is nothing but trying to increase sales on launch. Everything else, sugar coating it (I like sugar!). Let's not forget the endless line of grognards who define what D&D is despite the rest of the playerbase ("4E is not D&D", "3E is not D&D", "AD&D is not D&D" :rolleyes:), so expect a "5E is not D&D" too.
But WotC, much like Crypitc/PW, works for money so yeah, they may care about what players think what D&D is but they also care about future sales of 5E (which will be followed by 6E, 7E,... unless WotC somehow explode or something).:p
I do agree that players have a personal/subjective understading of what D&D is and as such, you cannot get a unilateral/monolithic definition of what D&D is. Especially if you fall in the trap of defining what D&D is based on a ruleset. Having different rulesets for the same game is actually good as people (supposing access to the proper materials) can play the way they want.
Working for a "major company" I can tell you that we ignore the whining screaming idiots and focus on the rational people. Whining screaming idiots are going to do whatever they are going to do and you can't change what you are doing because of them. If you do there will just be more whining screaming idiots that scream about your change. The idiots will most just spin off into the ether eventually the rational people who feel slighted are the people who will take action and they won't telegraph it on the forums.
Great post though.
Please Cryptic look into this man's rather profound and inspiring post. I agree with it 100%.
Character is what a man is in the dark
Not everyone is capable of writing a civil letter with little to no spelling errors or hyperbolic threats and statements?
Really? It has come to this?
Do you not learn how to write a nice letter in grade school?
Are we really going to become so politically correct, we're going to claim that people are so disadvantaged they can't help but be snarling trolls? I mean it's not what you said here, but it's pretty darn close.
And this????
Do you really feel the only way to get things done in life is to rant and rave like a lunatic and scream and mewl and stamp your feet?
Don't we call such creatures infants?
Oh my goodness, I knew gaming culture had an ugly, immature side, but I never knew it was this bad.
With careful thought and careful planning you can probably bend Cryptic's ear, which is precisely the OP's point and I applaud it.
Vociferous rants from overgrown children, impress nobody.
Grow up kids, if you want adult things done for you, you have to act like an adult.
Check out SHADOW on YouTube!
Finally . . .some civility and maturity in displaying a suggestion and feedback to a developer. VERY nice to see. Hope is restored.
I worked for a few different call centers (places that answer telephone calls for customer service purposes and assist you with your issues). All of the centers I worked for reacted to screaming and being irate in the following way:
1 - Be nice to the irate customer, but politely request they calm down and stop lashing out at you or you might have to disconnect the call . . .
2 - If they didn't chill, we hung up.
Your method, thus, is a great way to "get hung up on".
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
That's why I said either through practice or education. It has come to this. Sadly. It's not that they are disadvantaged or that can't help it, it's more that they were not properly educated in manners, civility or respect.
I hear what you're saying, I just don't buy it. I just think this is more of a case of some people refusing to grow up.
Check out SHADOW on YouTube!
People get emotional when deprived of something, it's an inherent reaction that some people handle better than others. That said, I would like to think we're all capable of learning to cope better under such circumstances. It's also worth mentioning that the example I gave was based in part off of anecdotal information. I happen to know a few people personally that would have only been interested in this game had they been allowed to play Drow. So you know, there's two people the game won't be seeing at launch due to this decision.
1) This is the internet. Unfortunately, as long as people cannot be slapped through their monitor they will continue to write posts that make them appear to be angry psychotic children on crack.
2) People also need to understand that only the game developers read the game's forums. You can debate in-game ideas with them, game mechanics, powers, etc. There's no guarantee that they'll agree with you, or make any changes even if they do, but it's at least possible.
However, the suits that make business decisions, the money people, do not read internet forums. Moreover, even if they did, they are absolutely not going to make a change that affects their business model or pricing structure based on anything that anyone posts on their forums.
3) You seriously can't wait 60 whole days to play a Drow? Really? And you don't think that someone who paid US$200 shouldn't get some kind of perk that someone who paid nothing doesn't get?