I am not going into some argument Neverwinter vs Elder Scrolls. These are completely different MMO:s. I am not Elder Scrolls Online expert, but I do know that Elder Scrolls games are sandbox games. I have never liked those games. I played Elders Scrolls 3 and Oblivion and regretted deeply that I bought Oblivion. I never even considered buying Skyrim after that.
Neverwinter you can see the Quest path clearly. There is no getting lost or be confused where to go!Ok there are hidden doors, but they are not game stopping. I also don't feel completely lost or annoyed like I felt while playing Elder Scrolls games!
At end of the day it is apples vs oranges. Some people like Elder Scrolls sanbox games, but I prefer Neverwinter!
When roughly translated: I have no proof and was merely exaggerating but admitting to this would injure my pride, so I won't!
Also, for all I know you don't have beta access either so who are you to say wether the game is truly better than they say by your own logic?
Aha I recognize already the poster type. The smart(that was a compliment) t*oll... or mildy put negative critizer. You try to use psychology to make people feel guilty. This is Neverwinter forum. Did you really expect that the majority in this forum don't like Neverwinter?
Well I can tell that I have not played Neverwinter BETA. Yes I know it was not for me personally that comment of yours, but I want to respond. Well I have played Guild Wars 2... and from what I have seen from many Neverwinter Beta videos yes I think Neverwinter >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Guild Wars 2.
WOW was great for me, but eventually after 3.5 years I got bored. I have enjoyed both old Baldurs Gate games and Neverwinter Nights games. I think Neverwinter rocks! There is no game that interest me as much right now. I have payed more then 500 euro for WOW, but we should be all be thankful this is a free game and still much better then the average MMO out there.
In this game we have the FOUNDRY. That is not all devs have talked about that in future players will also be able to create PvP Battlegrounds. Elder Scrolls Online, Guild Wars 2 etc. NONE of them allow players to create PvE adventures and PvP Battlegrounds.
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iamdoctordeathMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
This would be a valid point if even a small percentage of people complaining had played the game. It isn't. The vast majority the people complaining have watched videos and that is it. I can tell you with first hand knowledge that watching videos doesn't even come close to giving you the feel of the game. I am all for constructive criticism but very little of that is happening on these forums. It is just mostly people who have not actually played the game bitching about what they have not really experienced, whining that the game is p2w, and complaining about the price of the founders packs.
Now if that is what they want to do, great let them have fun, but don't compare that to what a beta is for.
Oh and there is a huge difference beside criticizing and constructive criticizing, what we see here is mostly just criticizing.
Ya, they haven't played- but the alpha/beta forums are full of people who have, and there is feedback there. You just can't see it- the normal forums ya, are full of people whining about things they know nothing about and are pretty much consistently wrong- but, that's pretty typical pre-launch behaviour.
Ya, they haven't played- but the alpha/beta forums are full of people who have, and there is feedback there. You just can't see it- the normal forums ya, are full of people whining about things they know nothing about and are pretty much consistently wrong- but, that's pretty typical pre-launch behaviour.
There IS good feedback on the alpha forums.
I can see it. HotN. I was talking about these forums not the beta ones.
I can see it. HotN. I was talking about these forums not the beta ones.
Feedback on beta forums is pointless unless Cryptic actually implements it. Having experienced Cryptic beta tests, I can tell you from personal experience that this is by no means guaranteed.
I am not going into some argument Neverwinter vs Elder Scrolls. These are completely different MMO:s. I am not Elder Scrolls Online expert, but I do know that Elder Scrolls games are sandbox games. I have never liked those games. I played Elders Scrolls 3 and Oblivion and regretted deeply that I bought Oblivion. I never even considered buying Skyrim after that.
Neverwinter you can see the Quest path clearly. There is no getting lost or be confused where to go!Ok there are hidden doors, but they are not game stopping. I also don't feel completely lost or annoyed like I felt while playing Elder Scrolls games!
At end of the day it is apples vs oranges. Some people like Elder Scrolls sanbox games, but I prefer Neverwinter!
I was not talking about what you like. You said that all mmo get hated before they get out. I given you an example of a game that the fans are salivating about it to contradict your previous statement.
Ok let's make a new thing. Let's list the things that we like in this game and the things that we don't like in this game.
like this
good things:
-graphics ok
-lots of facial and body options at character creation
-the city of neverwinter looks good
-the foundry
-interesting dungeons from what i saw on videos
bad things:
-not d&d
-beeing stuck with a certain build for a character....
-poor feats selection
-bad mechanics i don't like the shift defence i prefer a roll like in nwn 1 or baldur's gate. so bring back saves
-ugly wizard stance
-the fact that the skills don't do what they are supposed to do in d&d
-few races & classes
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elewyndylMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I given you an example of a game that the fans are salivating about it to contradict your previous statement.
Interesting. Well to test your theory I could create an account on Elder Scrolls Online forum. My first post would likely be something like why I think all Elder Scroll games suck;).
Well I did not mean to attack you personally. As for your other part of your post you explained what you like/dislike which is of course more constructive. No this is not DD pen and paper game. It is Action Combat. I also played Baldurs Gate games and NWN games. This game is different, but I still love it.
I was with you until this word came out. Why should we be thankful that a company looking to make money chose to use a competitive business strategy? You like the game? Fine, understandable, not even unreasonable. But to be thankful for it?
I get that this wasn't really your point, but your word choice here really kills your argument for me. The game has things that look good, and that's fine, but speaking from my outside perspective, I have things that I am concerned about as do many outsiders, and most of it isn't without merit.
Tell me, when does the game present you with a problem that can't be solved through fighting? Does it ever?
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ashrox10Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, SilverstarsPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2013
I just hope PWE advertise this game properly or it will remain under the radar.
I just hope PWE advertise this game properly or it will remain under the radar.
For a start the Beta is essentially pay-to-play and so advertising it now won't actually help NO unless Cryptic are trying to sell packages that allow people to access the Beta.
Beside until the direction that the game will take is entirely resolved, they won't exactly know what to advertise.
Superhero stories, done well, are about modern archetypes.
A Prootwaddle is one of the weirder player-character races in "The Fantasy Trip", Steve Jackson's first published role-playing game.
I was with you until this word came out. Why should we be thankful that a company looking to make money chose to use a competitive business strategy? You like the game? Fine, understandable, not even unreasonable. But to be thankful for it?
Playing devils advocate here: For someone who wants to play games and doesn't want to spend money I can see a reason to be thankful that this model is used over another model, even a b2p game they would have to spend some money on. Not my personal favorite thing as I think micro-buy games have a tendency to feel more like I am playing the home shopping channel game than a MMORPG game, but time will tell.
Playing devils advocate here: For someone who wants to play games and doesn't want to spend money I can see a reason to be thankful that this model is used over another model, even a b2p game they would have to spend some money on. Not my personal favorite thing as I think micro-buy games have a tendency to feel more like I am playing the home shopping channel game than a MMORPG game, but time will tell.
At the risk of sounding like a total stickler, I just think it's important that we keep things in a proper perspective: Cryptic and company are not our pals or buds, they are our business partners. We should show "thanks" in doing business with them and in no other capacity. That's just my take on things.
Interesting. Well to test your theory I could create an account on Elder Scrolls Online forum. My first post would likely be something like why I think all Elder Scroll games suck;).
Well I did not mean to attack you personally. As for your other part of your post you explained what you like/dislike which is of course more constructive. No this is not DD pen and paper game. It is Action Combat. I also played Baldurs Gate games and NWN games. This game is different, but I still love it.
That will not be testing my theory that will be making a fool of yourself. I know allot of dudes don't agree with my critics about the game but criticism is the only way to improve anything in life.
Beeing honest and upfront. Most of you really like the game but there are some that butter up Cryptic for some reason and butter up this game.
What all game needs is a slice of harsh criticism. If there weren't people like me mass efect 3 would still have the original lame ending
And ME3 was an epic game and still there was room to improve and it improved because the fans demanded it. If you suck up to neverwinter what do you get ? Oh i know pay2play beta + a ghost town forum for years + 0 fans relation for a very very long time
Anyone rember the lame bears emoticons ? How did that got fixed ? Yeah by speaking up
That will not be testing my theory that will be making a fool of yourself. I know allot of dudes don't agree with my critics about the game but criticism is the only way to improve anything in life.
Beeing honest and upfront. Most of you really like the game but there are some that butter up Cryptic for some reason and butter up this game.
What all game needs is a slice of harsh criticism. If there weren't people like me mass efect 3 would still have the original lame ending
And ME3 was an epic game and still there was room to improve and it improved because the fans demanded it. If you suck up to neverwinter what do you get ? Oh i know pay2play beta + a ghost town forum for years + 0 fans relation for a very very long time
Anyone rember the lame bears emoticons ? How did that got fixed ? Yeah by speaking up
And Shepard's Law has been invoked (Godwin's law but...you know) I'd argue that the "new and improved" ME3 still isn't any better. Hell, in the effort to fix things, they actually made MORE holes in the narrative. But...I dunno, A for effort? Thanks for trying? Here's to hoping the reboot won't be as terrible?
What were we talking about? Oh right! Criticism, very good thing. But it's important that such criticism be constructive.
First, there is alot of hate on these forums. Something that is truly bothersome. I thought that the D3 forums where a fluke. But here the hate comes before the game has been released.
Anyhow. I cannot state why YOU should give this game some love (notice the meaning of my rephrasing please, I am not a fan-boy)
But here are my reasons.
I am an old-timer. Been playing since the amiga 500-days, so that is my perspective, and should be considered when reading my reasons. Also, I have not played the game. But I do make assumptions based on what I have seen, and what, to me, is obvious design-choices for a beta, and will change with the proper release (as has been done in previous beta of games). I will give an explanation of all abbrivations, simply because I cannot be sure that all will know them. Some have not been spoken for 15 years
First, the combat. Many mmo-games, even mud (multi user dungeons) could not compeate with single/lan (local area network) on the grounds that combat was designed around activating an action disconnected from where you where on the battlefield. When WoW was released, this was adressed somewhat. But the amount of skills used in a fight, together with the specific order skills had to be used, was far too much for the human mind to use without disconnecting somewhat from what was happening on the screen. You could still move, and look in any direction. This is sometimes called "floaty" gameplay. NWO has the opposite of this.
Also, you can interrupt an attack by moving, which allows you to avoide an incoming attack. This allows some attacks to be devastating to your health (survival) if they land. This, in my opinion, returns the skill to the player, and not the planning of what skills, the grind for items, or the use of macros-keybinds. In short, it is an mmo that finally plays like the rpg's of old before WoW destroyed the scene (once again my opinion). In fact, we are finally seeing the MMO that I hoped for some 17 years ago, with games like Planet Side 2, and now NWO. In short, the combat feels more like you are partaking, and less like you are administrating.
Second, the classes. Every single one of the starting classes have distinct playstyles and position in a group. While you can survive without one class, it changes how everyone else playes. Here is a break-down as far as I have seen from the vids
(GF) Guardian fighter - Melee, CC (crowd control) tanker
(GWF) Great weapons fighter - Melee, DPS (damage per second) AoE (area of effect)
(TG) Trickster rogue - Melee, high - DPS and single target.
(DC) Devoted cleric - ranged, Heals
(CM) Control Mage - Ranged, CC
While all can do dmg, some excell at it, and there are atleast 3 builds depending on the setup of the party for what is effective
Some of the skills are really innovative in how the change the dynamic.
What I envision here is an example. While the run of the mill fight goes on. THe tank tanks, the rogue backstabbs, and the healer heals. the CM can, where needed, teleport in, drop a daily to give some respite. But wrong use screws with the rogue and tanks ability to control. It is better for the CM to use other none-knockback skills untill it is needed. But done correctly, i gives time for the DC to more easily target someone who needs heals, at the same time as potions will have time to have effect.
Third The foundry
Judging from the mods available to Skyrim and other games. There are alot of talented people out there that while not payed, are skilled enough to be called "gifted amatures". DnD players are based in PnP (pen and paper), which is on the rise. This can certainly give rise to alot of high-quality content. And even if only 100 people do content, that amount will surpass anything any company can feasibly hand out. If they on top of the "donate" button that is attached to each authors site, also give company-incentives for, lets say, dungeon of the week, Author of the month, or some competition like that. There is no end to the versatility of this system.
Fourth The artistic design. It is not over the top, like WoW, yet it is not stale like "realistic" games. This is very subjective. Not 100% in my opinion, but a good general approach.
Fifth The founding lore, the books, the PnP games, the PC games, the Console games, the fan-fiction, the pounds upon pounds for fantasy that is there for the inclusion by story-tellers.
So: the combat includes the player, is easy to understand, yet deceptivley demanding. There will be no end to the content, the artistic style is appeasing, and the classes are defined, versatile, yet distinct. I cannot see how you can AVOIDE giving this game atleast potential love.
Ocourse there are ways in which this game can fail, and some arguments are valid. But going all negative, arguing about aspects that are not part, should not be part, nor have no part, in a game like NWO is only muddling the waters for those that might actually have a great idea to add to this game. If I am a fan-boy for wanting to focus on producing great ideas in conjuction with the community, that could truly enhance my gaming experience, then so be it. If this game sucks, I won't have spent a single euro on it anyways.
The more you beat the iron in forge - the better and stronger it is when used as sword.
Hesitate while forging it, and I bet even Moradin cannot correct that mistake.
Loving does not means overlooking all its faults. All of the faults must be critically, harshly and mercilessly analyzed before game goes live. Only once game is finalized and released the focus should shift to accolades - not a moment before that.
Right now, the game is in testing - i.e. forge. Beat it as much as you can.
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iamdoctordeathMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
That will not be testing my theory that will be making a fool of yourself. I know allot of dudes don't agree with my critics about the game but criticism is the only way to improve anything in life.
Beeing honest and upfront. Most of you really like the game but there are some that butter up Cryptic for some reason and butter up this game.
What all game needs is a slice of harsh criticism. If there weren't people like me mass efect 3 would still have the original lame ending
And ME3 was an epic game and still there was room to improve and it improved because the fans demanded it. If you suck up to neverwinter what do you get ? Oh i know pay2play beta + a ghost town forum for years + 0 fans relation for a very very long time
Anyone rember the lame bears emoticons ? How did that got fixed ? Yeah by speaking up
I'm glad you brought up the bears as your example of criticism helping a game. That's a case of people making a huge stink of something utterly irrelevant as if it were a huge deal- which is exactly what hysterical forum goers seem to be intent on doing.
Constructive criticism is good, absolutely- there's alot of it on the alpha forums, and there's plenty enough here too- the problem is, so much of the criticism here is based on what I can only assume is a fictional dream someone had about what NWO is. Furthermore- most 'criticism' seems to always come attached to a demand of how this must change or the game will fail, or some sort of 'they are evil for doing this!' which often accompanies any discussion regarding cash store in particular, as if any game company making a profit proves they're in league with satan, while making an example of another GOOD company that cares more for their players than they do for the money- aka, a bunch of <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>.
Yes- buttering up a company with too much praise doesn't serve much point (except I suppose making the devs feel better for the job they're likely spending 12+ hours a day doing during this hectic, pre release time), and pointless criticism is likely the same- constructive critics are the best thing for a game pre-launch... but people screaming at the top of their lungs how this feature (that they are wrong about) is going to be the instant failure of the game and shows how blah blah blah rant about this and that is only going to hurt the game as person b, c, d and e look at that and go 'zomg, NWO servers are powered by the blood of kittens!? We need to tell everyone about this!'.
This is the internet- information travels faster than it ever has before- BUT, so does misinformation. People can voice their opinions in a reasonable, well thought out manner, and say that understanding they may have misunderstood something- that is useful. Saying 'I watched a video of gameplay and have decided this game is the worst thing ever made, etc....' is not, yet it seems to be ever growing in this day and age.
At this point- I'd rather see people who are so certain with what they are saying put up or shut up- because while buttering up a development team might not accomplish anything, screaming hysterically that the sky is falling WILL damage a game from the get go, regardless of the reality.
The more you beat the iron in forge - the better and stronger it is when used as sword.
Hesitate while forging it, and I bet even Moradin cannot correct that mistake.
Loving does not means overlooking all its faults. All of the faults must be critically, harshly and mercilessly analyzed before game goes live. Only once game is finalized and released the focus should shift to accolades - not a moment before that.
Right now, the game is in testing - i.e. forge. Beat it as much as you can.
Actually, with an MMO, when it goes live you *Still* need to beat on it. The difference between a stand alone game and an MMO is constantly updating content. Classes will be 'tweaked' over time, new systems will be introduced, etc.
Yes, by all means give Kudos and love where it is deserved. The game is fun, the setting/backgrounds, etc. are all very very nice.
But there are places where you have to set your rose colored glasses down and point out the flaws, etc. as well. (Very limited Avatar Customization, almost zero class customization, loot issues, too easy to level, no really challenging difficulty setting, traps are minor annoyance, no real story, etc.)
So yes, love it AND be critical at the same time. Help the game be better, so that more players play, and thus the game succeeds and is around to keep us entertained.
Now that does not mean to only spew bile and vitrol, but a harsh look at things is always needed, it does not threaten your game - it may perhaps end up making the game better (at least that is mostly why it is being done).
As a psychologist (in a few years anyways ), this anger has to do with some aspects of personality. But mostly it boils down to what we (psychologists) call Theory of Mind. Since most dont understand the game-creation process, nor have any experience in creating any entertainment product, they have only really one venue left. And that is a well-developed imagination. If I where a therapist to you all, I would ask you to do an exercise.
1-Imagine that you are creating a game.
2-Imagine a few aspects that you would want in that game.
3-Now imagine that even before anyone has seen that game, you are riddled with abusive posts stating this and that which you have considered, but opted against.
If you go through these steps, and still feel that hate and judgement, is warranted. It is not the problem with Theory of Mind, you are simply a bad human being.
.... Since most dont understand the game-creation process, nor have any experience in creating any entertainment product, ....
Why? How is any of this relevant? Users are consumers. They are players. TO play game is not their job but activity which they spend money in and indulge in.
If you drive a car why do they need to know that when the car turns X factor causes turbulence. It is simple that they do not like it - that is all. How to solve the problem is not their concern.
And feedback regarding what players want is valuable. Placing barriers on information regarding what your consumers want is sheer stupidity for any producer/seller. It is the job of the producer to look for appropriate feedback through tons of data - not the other way around. Money travels through the other one way.
Why? How is any of this relevant? Users are consumers. They are players. TO play game is not their job but activity which they spend money in and indulge in.
If you drive a car why do they need to know that when the car turns X factor causes turbulence. It is simple that they do not like it - that is all. How to solve the problem is not their concern.
And feedback regarding what players want is valuable. Placing barriers on information regarding what your consumers want is sheer stupidity for any producer/seller. It is the job of the producer to look for appropriate feedback through tons of data - not the other way around. Money travels through the other one way.
One key thing to realise is that, due to the distinctive nature of D&D4, a superhuman MMO Champions Online (CO) was chosen as a base to implement Neverwinter Online (NO).
As a result you can't easily make NO like NeverWinter Nights, which used an earlier version of D&D. If that was the plan Wizards of the Coast would have instead picked a base system that resembles D&D but they didn't.
The good news is that CO is pretty good MMO, and as a result NO should be reasonable too, but don't expect it to resemble either D&D or Neverwinter Nights.
If you want to understand what will be possible in NO, sample the base game CO which is free-to-play.
Superhero stories, done well, are about modern archetypes.
A Prootwaddle is one of the weirder player-character races in "The Fantasy Trip", Steve Jackson's first published role-playing game.
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elewyndylMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I was with you until this word came out. Why should we be thankful that a company looking to make money chose to use a competitive business strategy? You like the game? Fine, understandable, not even unreasonable. But to be thankful for it?
I get that this wasn't really your point, but your word choice here really kills your argument for me. The game has things that look good, and that's fine, but speaking from my outside perspective, I have things that I am concerned about as do many outsiders, and most of it isn't without merit.
Tell me, when does the game present you with a problem that can't be solved through fighting? Does it ever?
A couple of questions but I'll answer them as best as I can.
You don't understand my background. I have payed more then 500 euro for WOW gaming... and also payed the sub game Age of Conan for 6 months.
Usually free games have <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> graphics and tell me what FREE MMO offers so many races as Neverwinter? Classes only 5 true but devs have said that many classes will sooner or later after release be released.
It is a long and hard way to earn a character slot I think. Earn huge amount of Astral Diamonds and then convert it to ZEN and buy a character slots. However we have seen NOTHING of endgame. It might be that in ENDGAME you could even earn directly ZEN or bigger amounts of Astral Diamonds.
This youtube video analyses deeply Neverwinter economics. Please see it before you critize more the Neverwinter economics: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJg9SSIqPlo
Right we should be thankful because this game has GOOD graphics and is FREE GAME! On top of that great Action combat. At release you can create with FOUNDRY PvE adventures. However later in future long time after release devs have said you can also create PvP Battlegrounds. Tell me in what other MMO you can create both PvE Adventures and PvP Battlegrounds?
This game is amazing and free! The only critism is maybe that for a very casual player that plays little earning that third character slot might take an eternity. I don't care since I am hardcore player.
Finally to address: "Tell me, when does the game present you with a problem that can't be solved through fighting? Does it ever?"
The majority of player content is not that. This is Action Combat and main content is straightforward.
That said with FOUNDRY you can create conversations and depending on answer trigger monster spawn or not. Look for FOUNDRY content that says: story driven, Mystery, Riddles or whatever is your preference.
One key thing to realise is that, due to the distinctive nature of D&D4, a superhuman MMO Champions Online (CO) was chosen as a base to implement Neverwinter Online (NO).
As a result you can't easily make NO like NeverWinter Nights, which used an earlier version of D&D. If that was the plan Wizards of the Coast would have instead picked a base system that resembles D&D but they didn't.
The good news is that CO is pretty good MMO, and as a result NO should be reasonable too, but don't expect it to resemble either D&D or Neverwinter Nights.
If you want to understand what will be possible in NO, sample the base game CO which is free-to-play.
This would be fine if the dev team wasn't selling this game on how it "Carries the spirit of D&D" or whatever. If they were more willing to put their cards on the table and say "It's a streamlined and simplified Action RPG set in the forgotten realms" I would be more than willing to accept your assertion. As it stands however, the disengenuous way they are marketing this game reminds me of how the ME3 writing staff was talking up thier game months before the release (though not as horrible, obviously.)
This would be fine if the dev team wasn't selling this game on how it "Carries the spirit of D&D" or whatever. If they were more willing to put their cards on the table and say "It's a streamlined and simplified Action RPG set in the forgotten realms" I would be more than willing to accept your assertion. As it stands however, the disengenuous way they are marketing this game reminds me of how the ME3 writing staff was talking up thier game months before the release (though not as horrible, obviously.)
The phrase "Carries the spirit of D&D" probably applies to NO if you feel you can define D&D as D&D4.
Champions Online is an excellent base for D&D4 and I will be interested to discover how it limits/defines the Encounter and Daily powers, which are crucial when your characters have so few dance moves in your repertoire, albeit some moves can be repeated endlessly.
Superhero stories, done well, are about modern archetypes.
A Prootwaddle is one of the weirder player-character races in "The Fantasy Trip", Steve Jackson's first published role-playing game.
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shiaikaMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, SilverstarsPosts: 0Arc User
The more you beat the iron in forge - the better and stronger it is when used as sword.
Hesitate while forging it, and I bet even Moradin cannot correct that mistake.
Loving does not means overlooking all its faults. All of the faults must be critically, harshly and mercilessly analyzed before game goes live. Only once game is finalized and released the focus should shift to accolades - not a moment before that.
Right now, the game is in testing - i.e. forge. Beat it as much as you can.
Quite sure that beating the iron against a table, the ground or another person, is not the way to "beat the iron in the forge". Also quite sure that it's Cryptic who does the beating, that they are creating generic weaponry and, contrary to personal views, not custom made weaponry for each of the viewvers or potential buyers. Quite sure it's also distracting to be trying to forge a good weapon (as generic it can be) and have some people around distracting you from your job with constant and irrelevant chatter ("They don't it that way in Redrock City", "Why aren't you doing an elven blade? I don't want a human blade!", "That last strike sounded a bit weak to me. That blade is doomed!"...).
There is more to that but has nothing to do with the act itself of beating iron on the forge.
Quite sure that beating the iron against a table, the ground or another person, is not the way to "beat the iron in the forge". Also quite sure that it's Cryptic who does the beating,....
You missed the metaphor check. Forging here means the testers testing the product.
A good tester is always skeptical and hyper-sensitive to little things. I am not talking about development cycle of the software but the testing and QA cycle of development of the game.
Those who know nothing but praises for a developed product which has not completed its testing and QA phase are not good testers. Hence I said "uptill launch".
Usually free games have <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> graphics and tell me what FREE MMO offers so many races as Neverwinter? Classes only 5 true but devs have said that many classes will sooner or later after release be released.
Not sure if serious or sarcasm....but DDO,DC Universe,Allods online,LOTR yeah sure some are pay2win but free2play
And i'm sure there are plenty more.
Oh and since we're beeing literal about it, league of legends.
Anyway I'm glad my previous comments have stir up the comunity. Any comment regarding what you like and what you hate about the game is most wellcome
Not sure if serious or sarcasm....but DDO,DC Universe,Allods online,LOTR yeah sure some are pay2win but free2play
None of those games (save Allods online which I have no idea about) were f2p when they were released. They were developed and released on a different revenue model.
The phrase "Carries the spirit of D&D" probably applies to NO if you feel you can define D&D as D&D4.
Champions Online is an excellent base for D&D4 and I will be interested to discover how it limits/defines the Encounter and Daily powers, which are crucial when your characters have so few dance moves in your repertoire, albeit some moves can be repeated endlessly.
I just have a feeling that this isn't the game they're leading people to think it is, and that disappointment will run high upon release. Personally, I understand what it is and why it is that way, but you know, would be nice if the game wasn't all "Dialogue trees" and "killing dudes" There was more to D&D than that after all.
Comments
Well I can tell that I have not played Neverwinter BETA. Yes I know it was not for me personally that comment of yours, but I want to respond. Well I have played Guild Wars 2... and from what I have seen from many Neverwinter Beta videos yes I think Neverwinter >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Guild Wars 2.
WOW was great for me, but eventually after 3.5 years I got bored. I have enjoyed both old Baldurs Gate games and Neverwinter Nights games. I think Neverwinter rocks! There is no game that interest me as much right now. I have payed more then 500 euro for WOW, but we should be all be thankful this is a free game and still much better then the average MMO out there.
In this game we have the FOUNDRY. That is not all devs have talked about that in future players will also be able to create PvP Battlegrounds. Elder Scrolls Online, Guild Wars 2 etc. NONE of them allow players to create PvE adventures and PvP Battlegrounds.
Ya, they haven't played- but the alpha/beta forums are full of people who have, and there is feedback there. You just can't see it- the normal forums ya, are full of people whining about things they know nothing about and are pretty much consistently wrong- but, that's pretty typical pre-launch behaviour.
There IS good feedback on the alpha forums.
I can see it. HotN. I was talking about these forums not the beta ones.
Feedback on beta forums is pointless unless Cryptic actually implements it. Having experienced Cryptic beta tests, I can tell you from personal experience that this is by no means guaranteed.
I was not talking about what you like. You said that all mmo get hated before they get out. I given you an example of a game that the fans are salivating about it to contradict your previous statement.
Ok let's make a new thing. Let's list the things that we like in this game and the things that we don't like in this game.
like this
good things:
-graphics ok
-lots of facial and body options at character creation
-the city of neverwinter looks good
-the foundry
-interesting dungeons from what i saw on videos
bad things:
-not d&d
-beeing stuck with a certain build for a character....
-poor feats selection
-bad mechanics i don't like the shift defence i prefer a roll like in nwn 1 or baldur's gate. so bring back saves
-ugly wizard stance
-the fact that the skills don't do what they are supposed to do in d&d
-few races & classes
Well I did not mean to attack you personally. As for your other part of your post you explained what you like/dislike which is of course more constructive. No this is not DD pen and paper game. It is Action Combat. I also played Baldurs Gate games and NWN games. This game is different, but I still love it.
I was with you until this word came out. Why should we be thankful that a company looking to make money chose to use a competitive business strategy? You like the game? Fine, understandable, not even unreasonable. But to be thankful for it?
I get that this wasn't really your point, but your word choice here really kills your argument for me. The game has things that look good, and that's fine, but speaking from my outside perspective, I have things that I am concerned about as do many outsiders, and most of it isn't without merit.
Tell me, when does the game present you with a problem that can't be solved through fighting? Does it ever?
PvE Enthusiast.
For a start the Beta is essentially pay-to-play and so advertising it now won't actually help NO unless Cryptic are trying to sell packages that allow people to access the Beta.
Beside until the direction that the game will take is entirely resolved, they won't exactly know what to advertise.
A Prootwaddle is one of the weirder player-character races in "The Fantasy Trip", Steve Jackson's first published role-playing game.
Playing devils advocate here: For someone who wants to play games and doesn't want to spend money I can see a reason to be thankful that this model is used over another model, even a b2p game they would have to spend some money on. Not my personal favorite thing as I think micro-buy games have a tendency to feel more like I am playing the home shopping channel game than a MMORPG game, but time will tell.
At the risk of sounding like a total stickler, I just think it's important that we keep things in a proper perspective: Cryptic and company are not our pals or buds, they are our business partners. We should show "thanks" in doing business with them and in no other capacity. That's just my take on things.
That will not be testing my theory that will be making a fool of yourself. I know allot of dudes don't agree with my critics about the game but criticism is the only way to improve anything in life.
Beeing honest and upfront. Most of you really like the game but there are some that butter up Cryptic for some reason and butter up this game.
What all game needs is a slice of harsh criticism. If there weren't people like me mass efect 3 would still have the original lame ending
And ME3 was an epic game and still there was room to improve and it improved because the fans demanded it. If you suck up to neverwinter what do you get ? Oh i know pay2play beta + a ghost town forum for years + 0 fans relation for a very very long time
Anyone rember the lame bears emoticons ? How did that got fixed ? Yeah by speaking up
And Shepard's Law has been invoked (Godwin's law but...you know) I'd argue that the "new and improved" ME3 still isn't any better. Hell, in the effort to fix things, they actually made MORE holes in the narrative. But...I dunno, A for effort? Thanks for trying? Here's to hoping the reboot won't be as terrible?
What were we talking about? Oh right! Criticism, very good thing. But it's important that such criticism be constructive.
First, there is alot of hate on these forums. Something that is truly bothersome. I thought that the D3 forums where a fluke. But here the hate comes before the game has been released.
Anyhow. I cannot state why YOU should give this game some love (notice the meaning of my rephrasing please, I am not a fan-boy)
But here are my reasons.
I am an old-timer. Been playing since the amiga 500-days, so that is my perspective, and should be considered when reading my reasons. Also, I have not played the game. But I do make assumptions based on what I have seen, and what, to me, is obvious design-choices for a beta, and will change with the proper release (as has been done in previous beta of games). I will give an explanation of all abbrivations, simply because I cannot be sure that all will know them. Some have not been spoken for 15 years
First, the combat. Many mmo-games, even mud (multi user dungeons) could not compeate with single/lan (local area network) on the grounds that combat was designed around activating an action disconnected from where you where on the battlefield. When WoW was released, this was adressed somewhat. But the amount of skills used in a fight, together with the specific order skills had to be used, was far too much for the human mind to use without disconnecting somewhat from what was happening on the screen. You could still move, and look in any direction. This is sometimes called "floaty" gameplay. NWO has the opposite of this.
Also, you can interrupt an attack by moving, which allows you to avoide an incoming attack. This allows some attacks to be devastating to your health (survival) if they land. This, in my opinion, returns the skill to the player, and not the planning of what skills, the grind for items, or the use of macros-keybinds. In short, it is an mmo that finally plays like the rpg's of old before WoW destroyed the scene (once again my opinion). In fact, we are finally seeing the MMO that I hoped for some 17 years ago, with games like Planet Side 2, and now NWO. In short, the combat feels more like you are partaking, and less like you are administrating.
Second, the classes. Every single one of the starting classes have distinct playstyles and position in a group. While you can survive without one class, it changes how everyone else playes. Here is a break-down as far as I have seen from the vids
(GF) Guardian fighter - Melee, CC (crowd control) tanker
(GWF) Great weapons fighter - Melee, DPS (damage per second) AoE (area of effect)
(TG) Trickster rogue - Melee, high - DPS and single target.
(DC) Devoted cleric - ranged, Heals
(CM) Control Mage - Ranged, CC
While all can do dmg, some excell at it, and there are atleast 3 builds depending on the setup of the party for what is effective
Some of the skills are really innovative in how the change the dynamic.
What I envision here is an example. While the run of the mill fight goes on. THe tank tanks, the rogue backstabbs, and the healer heals. the CM can, where needed, teleport in, drop a daily to give some respite. But wrong use screws with the rogue and tanks ability to control. It is better for the CM to use other none-knockback skills untill it is needed. But done correctly, i gives time for the DC to more easily target someone who needs heals, at the same time as potions will have time to have effect.
Third The foundry
Judging from the mods available to Skyrim and other games. There are alot of talented people out there that while not payed, are skilled enough to be called "gifted amatures". DnD players are based in PnP (pen and paper), which is on the rise. This can certainly give rise to alot of high-quality content. And even if only 100 people do content, that amount will surpass anything any company can feasibly hand out. If they on top of the "donate" button that is attached to each authors site, also give company-incentives for, lets say, dungeon of the week, Author of the month, or some competition like that. There is no end to the versatility of this system.
Fourth The artistic design. It is not over the top, like WoW, yet it is not stale like "realistic" games. This is very subjective. Not 100% in my opinion, but a good general approach.
Fifth The founding lore, the books, the PnP games, the PC games, the Console games, the fan-fiction, the pounds upon pounds for fantasy that is there for the inclusion by story-tellers.
So: the combat includes the player, is easy to understand, yet deceptivley demanding. There will be no end to the content, the artistic style is appeasing, and the classes are defined, versatile, yet distinct. I cannot see how you can AVOIDE giving this game atleast potential love.
Ocourse there are ways in which this game can fail, and some arguments are valid. But going all negative, arguing about aspects that are not part, should not be part, nor have no part, in a game like NWO is only muddling the waters for those that might actually have a great idea to add to this game. If I am a fan-boy for wanting to focus on producing great ideas in conjuction with the community, that could truly enhance my gaming experience, then so be it. If this game sucks, I won't have spent a single euro on it anyways.
Sorry about the wall of text.
Hesitate while forging it, and I bet even Moradin cannot correct that mistake.
Loving does not means overlooking all its faults. All of the faults must be critically, harshly and mercilessly analyzed before game goes live. Only once game is finalized and released the focus should shift to accolades - not a moment before that.
Right now, the game is in testing - i.e. forge. Beat it as much as you can.
I'm glad you brought up the bears as your example of criticism helping a game. That's a case of people making a huge stink of something utterly irrelevant as if it were a huge deal- which is exactly what hysterical forum goers seem to be intent on doing.
Constructive criticism is good, absolutely- there's alot of it on the alpha forums, and there's plenty enough here too- the problem is, so much of the criticism here is based on what I can only assume is a fictional dream someone had about what NWO is. Furthermore- most 'criticism' seems to always come attached to a demand of how this must change or the game will fail, or some sort of 'they are evil for doing this!' which often accompanies any discussion regarding cash store in particular, as if any game company making a profit proves they're in league with satan, while making an example of another GOOD company that cares more for their players than they do for the money- aka, a bunch of <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>.
Yes- buttering up a company with too much praise doesn't serve much point (except I suppose making the devs feel better for the job they're likely spending 12+ hours a day doing during this hectic, pre release time), and pointless criticism is likely the same- constructive critics are the best thing for a game pre-launch... but people screaming at the top of their lungs how this feature (that they are wrong about) is going to be the instant failure of the game and shows how blah blah blah rant about this and that is only going to hurt the game as person b, c, d and e look at that and go 'zomg, NWO servers are powered by the blood of kittens!? We need to tell everyone about this!'.
This is the internet- information travels faster than it ever has before- BUT, so does misinformation. People can voice their opinions in a reasonable, well thought out manner, and say that understanding they may have misunderstood something- that is useful. Saying 'I watched a video of gameplay and have decided this game is the worst thing ever made, etc....' is not, yet it seems to be ever growing in this day and age.
At this point- I'd rather see people who are so certain with what they are saying put up or shut up- because while buttering up a development team might not accomplish anything, screaming hysterically that the sky is falling WILL damage a game from the get go, regardless of the reality.
Actually, with an MMO, when it goes live you *Still* need to beat on it. The difference between a stand alone game and an MMO is constantly updating content. Classes will be 'tweaked' over time, new systems will be introduced, etc.
Yes, by all means give Kudos and love where it is deserved. The game is fun, the setting/backgrounds, etc. are all very very nice.
But there are places where you have to set your rose colored glasses down and point out the flaws, etc. as well. (Very limited Avatar Customization, almost zero class customization, loot issues, too easy to level, no really challenging difficulty setting, traps are minor annoyance, no real story, etc.)
So yes, love it AND be critical at the same time. Help the game be better, so that more players play, and thus the game succeeds and is around to keep us entertained.
Now that does not mean to only spew bile and vitrol, but a harsh look at things is always needed, it does not threaten your game - it may perhaps end up making the game better (at least that is mostly why it is being done).
1-Imagine that you are creating a game.
2-Imagine a few aspects that you would want in that game.
3-Now imagine that even before anyone has seen that game, you are riddled with abusive posts stating this and that which you have considered, but opted against.
If you go through these steps, and still feel that hate and judgement, is warranted. It is not the problem with Theory of Mind, you are simply a bad human being.
Why? How is any of this relevant? Users are consumers. They are players. TO play game is not their job but activity which they spend money in and indulge in.
If you drive a car why do they need to know that when the car turns X factor causes turbulence. It is simple that they do not like it - that is all. How to solve the problem is not their concern.
And feedback regarding what players want is valuable. Placing barriers on information regarding what your consumers want is sheer stupidity for any producer/seller. It is the job of the producer to look for appropriate feedback through tons of data - not the other way around. Money travels through the other one way.
One key thing to realise is that, due to the distinctive nature of D&D4, a superhuman MMO Champions Online (CO) was chosen as a base to implement Neverwinter Online (NO).
As a result you can't easily make NO like NeverWinter Nights, which used an earlier version of D&D. If that was the plan Wizards of the Coast would have instead picked a base system that resembles D&D but they didn't.
The good news is that CO is pretty good MMO, and as a result NO should be reasonable too, but don't expect it to resemble either D&D or Neverwinter Nights.
If you want to understand what will be possible in NO, sample the base game CO which is free-to-play.
A Prootwaddle is one of the weirder player-character races in "The Fantasy Trip", Steve Jackson's first published role-playing game.
You don't understand my background. I have payed more then 500 euro for WOW gaming... and also payed the sub game Age of Conan for 6 months.
Usually free games have <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> graphics and tell me what FREE MMO offers so many races as Neverwinter? Classes only 5 true but devs have said that many classes will sooner or later after release be released.
Everything is FREE except BETA access.
This youtube video analyses deeply Neverwinter economics. Please see it before you critize more the Neverwinter economics:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJg9SSIqPlo
Right we should be thankful because this game has GOOD graphics and is FREE GAME! On top of that great Action combat. At release you can create with FOUNDRY PvE adventures. However later in future long time after release devs have said you can also create PvP Battlegrounds. Tell me in what other MMO you can create both PvE Adventures and PvP Battlegrounds?
This game is amazing and free! The only critism is maybe that for a very casual player that plays little earning that third character slot might take an eternity. I don't care since I am hardcore player.
Finally to address:
"Tell me, when does the game present you with a problem that can't be solved through fighting? Does it ever?"
The majority of player content is not that. This is Action Combat and main content is straightforward.
That said with FOUNDRY you can create conversations and depending on answer trigger monster spawn or not. Look for FOUNDRY content that says: story driven, Mystery, Riddles or whatever is your preference.
They are?!?! If I get them some more kittens will the servers be more powerful? I could wrap them in plastic bags and fed-ex them there now.
This would be fine if the dev team wasn't selling this game on how it "Carries the spirit of D&D" or whatever. If they were more willing to put their cards on the table and say "It's a streamlined and simplified Action RPG set in the forgotten realms" I would be more than willing to accept your assertion. As it stands however, the disengenuous way they are marketing this game reminds me of how the ME3 writing staff was talking up thier game months before the release (though not as horrible, obviously.)
The phrase "Carries the spirit of D&D" probably applies to NO if you feel you can define D&D as D&D4.
Champions Online is an excellent base for D&D4 and I will be interested to discover how it limits/defines the Encounter and Daily powers, which are crucial when your characters have so few dance moves in your repertoire, albeit some moves can be repeated endlessly.
A Prootwaddle is one of the weirder player-character races in "The Fantasy Trip", Steve Jackson's first published role-playing game.
There is more to that but has nothing to do with the act itself of beating iron on the forge.
You missed the metaphor check. Forging here means the testers testing the product.
A good tester is always skeptical and hyper-sensitive to little things. I am not talking about development cycle of the software but the testing and QA cycle of development of the game.
Those who know nothing but praises for a developed product which has not completed its testing and QA phase are not good testers. Hence I said "uptill launch".
Not sure if serious or sarcasm....but DDO,DC Universe,Allods online,LOTR yeah sure some are pay2win but free2play
And i'm sure there are plenty more.
Oh and since we're beeing literal about it, league of legends.
Anyway I'm glad my previous comments have stir up the comunity. Any comment regarding what you like and what you hate about the game is most wellcome
None of those games (save Allods online which I have no idea about) were f2p when they were released. They were developed and released on a different revenue model.
I just have a feeling that this isn't the game they're leading people to think it is, and that disappointment will run high upon release. Personally, I understand what it is and why it is that way, but you know, would be nice if the game wasn't all "Dialogue trees" and "killing dudes" There was more to D&D than that after all.