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Forums > Home› Class Forums› The Thieves' Den

Rogues r not thieves (thieves suck)

talonvectortalonvector Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 114 Bounty Hunter
edited March 2013 in The Thieves' Den
Might as well call the great weapon fighter thread Brute Thug, but any way done with that and on to 1 thing I have noticed with the ROGUE class, and was wondering if the issue would b fixed or if they even see it as an issue. The ROGUE =) runs with his hands like he has weapons in it even though he dosnt, or maybe I should say his hands appear to have weapons in them when he dosnt when running around. Any way Im sure u get the point, and all though this is not a big deal I still ask WHYYYYYYYYYYY. With love of coarse, have a good 1.
Post edited by talonvector on
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Comments

  • asumah1asumah1 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 44
    edited February 2013
    That post crit my English for 500% sneak attack damage
  • shadow71shadow71 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 50
    edited February 2013
    talonvector wrote: »
    Might as well call the great weapon fighter thread Brute Thug, but any way done with that and on to 1 thing I have noticed with the ROGUE class, and was wondering if the issue would b fixed or if they even see it as an issue. The ROGUE =) runs with his hands like he has weapons in it even though he dosnt, or maybe I should say his hands appear to have weapons in them when he dosnt when running around. Any way Im sure u get the point, and all though this is not a big deal I still ask WHYYYYYYYYYYY. With love of coarse, have a good 1.

    Actually your post is kind of weird dude. You have a subject yet you start talking about something totally different. And just to let you know yes a Rogue is a Thief.
  • talonvectortalonvector Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 114 Bounty Hunter
    edited February 2013
    Um...... Shadow7 go look up the meaning of rogue, and other then D&D lore, tell me where in any definition that u read describes a rogue as a thief. nice try on making your point but u r wrong.
  • rackhamgreg74rackhamgreg74 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 105 Bounty Hunter
    edited February 2013
    talonvector wrote: »
    Um...... Shadow7 go look up the meaning of rogue, and other then D&D lore, tell me where in any definition that u read describes a rogue as a thief. nice try on making your point but u r wrong.

    Umm, then according to both the Player's Handbook AND this MMO, why do rogues automatically get the skills stealth and thievery. So what other purpose would they need thievery for? Politics??
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  • talonvectortalonvector Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 114 Bounty Hunter
    edited February 2013
    So I just wrote a descent sized reply and right at the end realized I am just wasting my time.... The game is going to b made how ever they want it to b, we can say what we want or ask for what we want but its just a waste, been in forums to many times to feel any different. So Peace.
  • devoneauxdevoneaux Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    shadow71 wrote: »
    Actually your post is kind of weird dude. You have a subject yet you start talking about something totally different. And just to let you know yes a Rogue is a Thief.

    Wrong, the dictionary defines a rogue as someone who is dishonest or knavish. These of course are qualities often associated in thieves, but one does not have to be dishonest or knavish in order to be a thief. Further, not everyone whom displays these traits is a thief.
  • fotzikfotzik Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    Erm, what the dictionary describes a rogue as doesn't really matter. The game is based on DnD rules and lore, not our real life dictionaries. Now this game in particular is based of DnD fourth edition, this means that the Rogue is a Thief. It was actually renamed in the third edition of Dungeons and Dragons from Rogue to Thief to broaden the class. Just read the official website of DnD, the lead designer even brings it up in one of their weekly articles about how DnD has evolved.
  • korbanhodkorbanhod Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 51
    edited February 2013
    Taken from the core rule book of 4th edition:

    "You look surprised to see me. If you'd been paying attention, you might still be alive."

    Rogues are cunning and elusive adversaries. Rogues slip into and out of the shadows on a whim, pass anywhewre across the field of battle without fear of reprisal, and appear suddenly only to drive home a lethal blade.
    As a rogue, you might face others' perceptions regarding your motivations, but your nature is your own mold. You could be an agent fresh from the king's shattered intelligence network, an accused criminal on the lam seeking to clear your name, a wiry performer whose goals transcend the theatrical stage, a kid trying to turn around your hard luck story, or a daredevil thrill-seeker who can't get enough of the adrenaline rush of conflict. Or perhaps you are merely in it for the gold, after all.
    With a blade up your sleeve and concealing cloak across your shoulders, you stride forth, eyes alight with anticipation. What worldly wonders and rewards are yours for the taking?

    It's safe to say that the OP is right. Rogues are Rogues, not necessarily thieves.

    This is straight out from the 4th edition core rulebook.
  • devoneauxdevoneaux Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    fotzik wrote: »
    Erm, what the dictionary describes a rogue as doesn't really matter. The game is based on DnD rules and lore, not our real life dictionaries. Now this game in particular is based of DnD fourth edition, this means that the Rogue is a Thief. It was actually renamed in the third edition of Dungeons and Dragons from Rogue to Thief to broaden the class. Just read the official website of DnD, the lead designer even brings it up in one of their weekly articles about how DnD has evolved.

    Well in this game, they're called trickster rogues, not thieves. So there. :D
  • korbanhodkorbanhod Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 51
    edited February 2013
    devoneaux wrote: »
    Well in this game, they're called trickster rogues, not thieves. So there. :D

    No, in 4th edition they are called trickster rogue.
  • iamtruthseekeriamtruthseeker Member, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    fotzik wrote: »
    Erm, what the dictionary describes a rogue as doesn't really matter. The game is based on DnD rules and lore, not our real life dictionaries. Now this game in particular is based of DnD fourth edition, this means that the Rogue is a Thief. It was actually renamed in the third edition of Dungeons and Dragons from Rogue to Thief to broaden the class. Just read the official website of DnD, the lead designer even brings it up in one of their weekly articles about how DnD has evolved.


    I would have let the historical D&D interchanging of rogue and thief go but you made a major mistake with 4E here.


    Rogue(Scoundrel) are a core based 4e class introduced in the D&D PH. Rogue(Thief) is a D&D Essentials class with a different line of powers (even IF similar) from the Heroes of the Fallen Lands book. So no, your 4E "typical" rogues are NOT thieves and they are different builds even if sub-classes.


    And to the OP, after reading your post (which honestly was a little confusing to me,) it seems your conclusion is the rogue MMO class appeared to run funnily with their stance, is that correct?
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  • fotzikfotzik Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    iamtruthseeker wrote: »
    I would have let the historical D&D interchanging of rogue and thief go but you made a major mistake with 4E here.


    Rogue(Scoundrel) are a core based 4e class introduced in the D&D PH. Rogue(Thief) is a D&D Essentials class with a different line of powers (even IF similar) from the Heroes of the Fallen Lands book. So no, your 4E "typical" rogues are NOT thieves and they are different builds even if sub-classes.


    And to the OP, after reading your post (which honestly was a little confusing to me,) it seems your conclusion is the rogue MMO class appeared to run funnily with their stance, is that correct?

    Havn't really read nor played with the 4e ruleset, all I can say is what the lead designer of dungeons and dragons has written about rogues in it's current state after 3rd and 4th edition changes. There's multiple types of rogues though and I do know that, but that doesn't change the fact that they used to be named thieves. And this MMO is based of a modified 4e ruleset if I'm not mistaken, and it clearly says they have "thieving" abilities in the character creation, so it would be safe to assume that Rogues in this DnD game, is actually a type of thief.
  • devoneauxdevoneaux Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    fotzik wrote: »
    Havn't really read nor played with the 4e ruleset, all I can say is what the lead designer of dungeons and dragons has written about rogues in it's current state after 3rd and 4th edition changes. There's multiple types of rogues though and I do know that, but that doesn't change the fact that they used to be named thieves. And this MMO is based of a modified 4e ruleset if I'm not mistaken, and it clearly says they have "thieving" abilities in the character creation, so it would be safe to assume that Rogues in this DnD game, is actually a type of thief.

    Just because they have a thieving ability doesn't mean I have to use it, because maybe my character isn't a thief.

    Look, bud, they're called rogues for a reason. Let it go.
  • fotzikfotzik Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    devoneaux wrote: »
    Just because they have a thieving ability doesn't mean I have to use it, because maybe my character isn't a thief.

    Look, bud, they're called rogues for a reason. Let it go.

    Look, bud, the characteristics of a rogue in dnd is thievery, stealth, bluff, aerobatics and you're really good with taking advantage of combat advantage to dash out damage, it says so on wizards description of them. All builds have the ability thievery (from what I've seen when it comes to 4e). Just because you choose not to use it doesn't alleviate the fact that in dnd rogues are thieves.

    If this doesn't justify in Cryptic to name the rogue section of the forum to The Thieve's Den then I have nothing more to say.
  • korbanhodkorbanhod Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 51
    edited February 2013
    I would have to say that the definition is not even remotely define the rogue as "just" a thief. It has so many other opportunities.

    What is posted elsewhere, cannot change the rule of their own book unless they release a new one.

    Besides, you should really lay off the attitude. It is an official definition and it is from the core rulebook that this game is based on.
  • devoneauxdevoneaux Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    fotzik wrote: »
    Look, bud, the characteristics of a rogue in dnd is thievery, stealth, bluff, aerobatics and you're really good with taking advantage of combat advantage to dash out damage, it says so on wizards description of them. All builds have the ability thievery (from what I've seen when it comes to 4e). Just because you choose not to use it doesn't alleviate the fact that in dnd rogues are thieves.

    If this doesn't justify in Cryptic to name the rogue section of the forum to The Thieve's Den then I have nothing more to say.

    And yet they're still called rogues. Your argument=Invalid.
  • talonvectortalonvector Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 114 Bounty Hunter
    edited February 2013
    Yes 1 of my concerns was that the rogue did look to b running funnily with their stance. But the reason I named this post what I did is cause I didnt like the idea of entering the thieves den, to talk about the class I am excited to play. All though I have heard the saying "honor amongst thieves" and do understand the meaning. Honor, and thievery do not go hand n hand. So my comments based on this topic were not so much about lore, but more about morality. This is the best example I can think of at the moment is in Gw2 they call the rogue a thief because it has the ability to steal. But.... Taking a weapon from your enemy, and using it against them is not called stealing in my book. It is called... Smart.
  • fotzikfotzik Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    You can't really bring up other games or what rogue means in general, it has nothing to do with DnD and this game. This is DnD, nothing else, and in DnD Rogue=Thief. End of story.
  • korbanhodkorbanhod Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 51
    edited February 2013
    fotzik wrote: »
    You can't really bring up other games or what rogue means in general, it has nothing to do with DnD and this game. This is DnD, nothing else, and in DnD Rogue=Thief. End of story.

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  • terrorkazuterrorkazu Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 4 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    Totally wayne..thief or rogue..whaaaaaaaat eveeeer u called it (or maybe assassine? :D ) It's a melee DD with 2 weapons, that enough :P
  • xenithlgxenithlg Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    talonvector wrote: »
    Might as well call the great weapon fighter thread Brute Thug, but any way done with that and on to 1 thing I have noticed with the ROGUE class, and was wondering if the issue would b fixed or if they even see it as an issue. The ROGUE =) runs with his hands like he has weapons in it even though he dosnt, or maybe I should say his hands appear to have weapons in them when he dosnt when running around. Any way Im sure u get the point, and all though this is not a big deal I still ask WHYYYYYYYYYYY. With love of coarse, have a good 1.

    And YOU r not a gud speller.
  • slowshieldslowshield Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Silverstars Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    :-) I have liked all the videos so far and will definitely look forward to grouping up with some of you for adventures..! Still deciding between a guardian for tanking or a rogue!
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  • vampirialvampirial Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users Posts: 27 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    I was working under the assumption that because rogues are shadey (shades of moral greyness) and they are trained in stealth, obfuscation and subterfuge that thievery is a skill that would come naturally to someone of that skillset, perhaps your Rogue isnt a thief but they can put those skills to work in dungeons (which lets face it, is the only place thievery is really an issue and even then its for harvesting craft/treasure nodes) afterall, if your good at having a light touch and nimble fingers your ideally as suited to disabling traps and locks as you are to picking pockets, speaking from a DnD standpoint at least. (sorry if it made no sense, its late where i am :) )
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  • elthuzarelthuzar Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users Posts: 123 Bounty Hunter
    edited February 2013
    Thieves are rogues but not all rogues are thieves.
  • korbanhodkorbanhod Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 51
    edited February 2013
    elthuzar wrote: »
    Thieves are rogues but not all rogues are thieves.

    You sir! are correct! :D
  • theretronerotheretronero Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    talonvector wrote: »
    Um...... Shadow7 go look up the meaning of rogue, and other then D&D lore, tell me where in any definition that u read describes a rogue as a thief. nice try on making your point but u r wrong.

    A thief is considered a rogue, even back in the medieval days.
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  • talonvectortalonvector Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 114 Bounty Hunter
    edited February 2013
    Perspective, Perspective. Sigh...... U all that want to rp a loser no good piece of HAMSTER thief go for it. I for 1 will b playing my sam fisher, splinter cell esq. awesome, sneaky, espionage ish rogue.
  • voidwatcherxvoidwatcherx Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Silverstars Posts: 128 Bounty Hunter
    edited February 2013
    talonvector wrote: »
    Perspective, Perspective. Sigh...... U all that want to rp a loser no good piece of HAMSTER thief go for it. I for 1 will b playing my sam fisher, splinter cell esq. awesome, sneaky, espionage ish rogue.

    You go ahead and play as Sam Fisher and we'll just play Neverwinter. Seems fair to me!
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  • talonvectortalonvector Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 114 Bounty Hunter
    edited February 2013
    Im wondering if u have any idea what I meant, or if u r just trying to b funny...... any way...... ONWARD!
  • korbanhodkorbanhod Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 51
    edited February 2013
    theretronero wrote: »
    A thief is considered a rogue, even back in the medieval days.

    Then I declare Harry Potter a rogue wizard!

    Seriously, the lore connected to the game states clearly a rogue has many jobs, and being a thief "CAN" be one of them.
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