It also depends on implementation - a shorter path with bonus exploration XP or alternate boss could be rewarding players by equalling XP for slightly less time than a longer route. Increase the danger, lower the time required, or boost the XP or offer an alternate reward by providing a trapped path.
I played rogue this weekend (beta2) and also played a cleric with a rogue. I think fast paced dungeons are over rated. Interesting, fun dungeon delving is better achieved with rhythm rather than speed. Serious traps (with rogue foils) support that. Its up to the player (the rogue) to be attentive and add any flourishes necessary to keep his party safe and interested.
Overall in the past ten years we have seen a deterioration in the dungeon party where the only 2 classes truly necessary are a tank and a healer. Now that really is not fun, to be made a mana slave to a healer and a dependent of the tank. A balanced party requires reciprocity among all the members and I think NWN is well on its way to achieving that. Well designed and implemented hazards are a distinctive feature of NWN dungeons going back to DnD and should not be abandoned.
This isn't pen and paper. It will never be pen and paper. It should never be pen and freaking paper. Do you know why? Because we very much already have pen and paper. If that is the kind of game you want to play, please exercise your liberty and go do exactly that.
Big strong traps, requiring mandatory mechanic rogues in every party, would be a very jarring feature in an otherwise fluid, action-orriented MMO. What part of, "Okay everyone wait here while I scout ahead..." seems appropriate for the game you have all seen?
And this is the kind of stupidity that we don't need. The bottom line is that this is DUNGEONS AND DRAGONS. Not WoW, Not EQ, Rift or any number of a dozen other MMOs. D&D was designed to make EACH class useful for their specific talents, not just a zerg fest. What will you do when you start running into the Arcane traps that only a Wizard can disarm? If you want another MMO set up just like every other one out there, why not take your own advice and go play that. Leave this game for those of us who fondly remember D&D from PnP, since without that, this incarnation wouldn't even exist.
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hironsssMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 25Arc User
And this is the kind of stupidity that we don't need. The bottom line is that this is DUNGEONS AND DRAGONS. Not WoW, Not EQ, Rift or any number of a dozen other MMOs. D&D was designed to make EACH class useful for their specific talents, not just a zerg fest. What will you do when you start running into the Arcane traps that only a Wizard can disarm? If you want another MMO set up just like every other one out there, why not take your own advice and go play that. Leave this game for those of us who fondly remember D&D from PnP, since without that, this incarnation wouldn't even exist.
This 1000x. I was so excited when NW was announced. Then I played beta just to find out how generic/boring the dungeon was. There is absolutely nothing special about it. No (creative)traps, no secret doors/path, no puzzles no big hidden treasures. Might as well play diablo 3 for zerg to the boss and kill everything on sight. Take a look at how DDO did the dungeons and learn from it Cryptic.
With the already great combat/lore/foundry, add on top of it deeper character customization, more classes and DDO like dungeons and you will have a masterpiece.
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mrcloud87Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 7Arc User
edited March 2013
Some of the traps after lvl 30 were starting to hit pretty hard. With 5-6k hp, I hit a few for 2-3k. Made me pay more attention, for sure.
It would be nice to have a quick button, similar to asking for help when you die, to let the party know about a trap while crawling through the dungeon. That halo effect around me to quickly let the party know I saw a trap. Maybe limit the number of times it can be cast so there isn't spam.
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radford64Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 5Arc User
And this is the kind of stupidity that we don't need. The bottom line is that this is DUNGEONS AND DRAGONS. Not WoW, Not EQ, Rift or any number of a dozen other MMOs. D&D was designed to make EACH class useful for their specific talents, not just a zerg fest. What will you do when you start running into the Arcane traps that only a Wizard can disarm? If you want another MMO set up just like every other one out there, why not take your own advice and go play that. Leave this game for those of us who fondly remember D&D from PnP, since without that, this incarnation wouldn't even exist.
I agree totally! But for that matter, upping the damage that traps do wouldn't need to make rogues compulsory:
1) optional bits, that are full of traps and locked doors and such. If you don't have a rogue, you can still complete, but you'll have to forfeit the bonus stuff.
2) Dangerous traps, that can be avoided if you know where to walk. If it's your first time in a dungeon, you'll want either a rogue or a guide, or the party will die lots.
3) Traps that are not enough to kill but will slow you down as you spend lots of time healing up your party. Or will use up lots of potions, making it expensive.
4) Traps that don't just do damage but cause debuffs, such as slowing your speed, giving you a disease, reducing your damage, increasing your cooldown times, etc. They'll wear off, so you don't need a rogue, but they will be quite annoying.
5) Traps that can be turned off by a secondary mechanism, such as solving a puzzle or pulling a lever. One team member with a lot of hp can whizz through the traps, heal up, then do the thing that lets the others through. (Especially if they suffer other debuffs like poison too.)
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radford64Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 5Arc User
edited March 2013
Oh yeah, and can we change the colour of the sparkly effect for traps? I don't know if it's just me, but the "this tile will rip you into little pieces" effect looks exactly the same blue as the "pull this lever to open the portcullis" effect.
Well, later on, the damage of the traps ramps up significantly as I recall it. The point is - and a lot of rogue players here seem to miss that - that non-rogues can't see the traps sparkling like we do. So they take extra damage and they might get hit by them during a fight because they forgot about them in the first place.
So having a rogue to clear the traps before a battle starts is always a plus, but should never be mandatory. So its a nice feature right now, but you can run a dungeon without it as well. So thats alright I guess. Pretty much the same with missing out on bonus content when you don't bring the according kits.
Traps need to b used for something more then disarming, Like maybe re arming them to help cc a boss or something like that, and honestly in dungeons I think traps should 1 shot u, I mean it is highly unlikely that the whole group is going to b 1 shot by 1 trap lol, and since there is no gear repairs in the game u just revive your party member and be more careful. I mean seriously people its a dungeon its not supposed to give a warm cozy feeling. Now lets say if u r higher lev then that particular dungeon then no I guess it shouldnt 1 shot u but it should at least get your attention by almost doin it.
I just think it sux how as is every dungeon I ran no 1 even really bothered to disarm traps, and if u did u just got left by the group, and for what? I will tell u for what for nothin, no xp, and no crafting materials, so why even have them in then.
And along with this a trap should if made stronger only trigger 1 time I mean who is rearming these things, I mean I think a rogue should b able to rearm them but, if they only triggered 1 time it would keep full group wipes from happening if u didnt have a rogue. I am by no means trying to make the game a pain in the butt to play I would just like disarming traps to mean something either for the rogue or the the group.
At this point traps are useless. In a group you just rush thing. Even if you trigger it it doesnt hurt. So why add the traps? Make them hurt more or give advantages like secret path for disarming it.
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zothimusMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 10Arc User
I'd like to see some deadlier traps, perhaps even the odd lethal trap for someone unlucky enough to trigger them accidentally. Right now they seem more of a nuisance then dangerous in dungeons. Perhaps put some traps that in situations that you must disarm in order to advance further in a dungeon without dying.
I agree with this post, make 1 out of 5 or 1 out of 10 traps kill the person who triggers the trap. Make it risky like table top D&D! That would make taking the time disarming traps worth disarming the traps especially at higher level or at boss encounters. I also like the idea of action points for disarming traps even if no one dies, at least you get something useful or instant gratification for taking the time to disarm. Dungeons should be more intimidating when you venture into them.
I'M Fist of the Northstar
If you're that eager to die I'll oblige you
Tell Ken(shiro) I'll be at the grave of our father, Ryokin
Nice!=) I like that comment about the healer and tank.
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ohoniprimeMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 25Arc User
edited March 2013
Yes, the limited degree of character customization is disappointing. But it's unrealistic to expect everything from a new MMO. More classes will come in the future.
That's not really accurate. GW2, for example, launched with eight character classes, and within the Thief alone you have six different weapon combinations (not including underwater), each of which offers five different "encounter" abilities, then three more utility effects, and an elite utility similar to the dailies. There's a whole lot more variety of experience there, you can level a dagger/dagger and shortbow thief to 80 and have a completely different experience than a sword/dagger and pistol/pistol thief.
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ixsparMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 24Arc User
edited March 2013
I have to agree. If not for the other party members not being able to see some of the traps themselves, and stepping on them, I wouldn't disarm any. However, simply knowing they are there is beneficial. Perhaps later on there will be some other benefit tied to disarming some traps...such as disarm trap A and door to treasure B opens in room C. Without the trap disarmed, then no open door.
Me not sure if it's cleric or dungeon specific but me would occasionally see mimics acting out an animation from a distance.
Don't recall seeing the same on my GF or Rogue though (Rogue hasn't managed to hit 23 to go to that particular dungeon though).
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frankieraye: I'll see if we can replace the woman with a stick figure and the tiger fangs with marshmallows./Issues like these need to get escalated quickly to minimize the damage.
Kantorek: Yeah.. you should try it. It's awesome.
Sihndra: Nope- not currently possible under any circumstances. Sorry.
LokisDottir: I mean...not haunting the forums, nope nope.
Konariraiden: You don't know what you are up against. You will lose.
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cartivaMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I actually find traps more helpful then not considering you can run monsters through them.
I used that tactic a few times. Works great for the fodder baddies.
Keira Taletreader 60 GF 13.9 GS Erdan Loreweaver 60 CW 11.3 GS Mika Hawklight 60 DC 11.5 GS Rukia Stealthfoot 60 TR 11.5 GS Ka D'Argo 60 HR 13.7 GS Ivan Ironfist 60 GWF 11.6 GS
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cartivaMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited March 2013
I would like to see, as others have suggested, some treasures or extra dungeon that can only be found and accessed by rogues, deadly traps, and xp or treasure bonuses for disarming them.
Keira Taletreader 60 GF 13.9 GS Erdan Loreweaver 60 CW 11.3 GS Mika Hawklight 60 DC 11.5 GS Rukia Stealthfoot 60 TR 11.5 GS Ka D'Argo 60 HR 13.7 GS Ivan Ironfist 60 GWF 11.6 GS
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cartivaMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited March 2013
Like most things in life, how you experience events are up to you. Some people want to enjoy the subtleties of the game and others want to get to the end as fast as possible. I played with groups that the rogue went first, when he stopped, everyone stopped, disarmed the trap and we moved on. When it came to battles, the tank ran in first. Some groups the tank bulldozed through the whole thing, soaking up the trap damage, got a heal, and moved on. I think the later ruined the experience for me. I like to explore the entire dungeon. To each there own.
Keira Taletreader 60 GF 13.9 GS Erdan Loreweaver 60 CW 11.3 GS Mika Hawklight 60 DC 11.5 GS Rukia Stealthfoot 60 TR 11.5 GS Ka D'Argo 60 HR 13.7 GS Ivan Ironfist 60 GWF 11.6 GS
Traps were totally ignored by everyone including the rogue, there needs to be an incentive to avoiding setting off a traps, xp bonus if no traps were tripped during a dungeon quest etc. Traps should be more punishing than what they are at the moment
imo it was free dps at low lvls. as a guardian, i was able to position mobs on the traps. those floor blades and dart traps would kill mobs faster. round a bunch up and have them positioned to be hit by the traps. beyond the rooting ability from the floor spikes, i just jumped over em after i knew they were there lolz.
[I agree that traps are 100% ignorable. The damange is negligable. I would like to see them do massive damage, apply a non-dispellabel debuff, or even insta-kill anyone that triggers them. I would also like to see some kind of perk or bonus to the Trickster for disarming them. Maybe a special Trickster only currency that could be used to purchase something.
Comments
Overall in the past ten years we have seen a deterioration in the dungeon party where the only 2 classes truly necessary are a tank and a healer. Now that really is not fun, to be made a mana slave to a healer and a dependent of the tank. A balanced party requires reciprocity among all the members and I think NWN is well on its way to achieving that. Well designed and implemented hazards are a distinctive feature of NWN dungeons going back to DnD and should not be abandoned.
And this is the kind of stupidity that we don't need. The bottom line is that this is DUNGEONS AND DRAGONS. Not WoW, Not EQ, Rift or any number of a dozen other MMOs. D&D was designed to make EACH class useful for their specific talents, not just a zerg fest. What will you do when you start running into the Arcane traps that only a Wizard can disarm? If you want another MMO set up just like every other one out there, why not take your own advice and go play that. Leave this game for those of us who fondly remember D&D from PnP, since without that, this incarnation wouldn't even exist.
This 1000x. I was so excited when NW was announced. Then I played beta just to find out how generic/boring the dungeon was. There is absolutely nothing special about it. No (creative)traps, no secret doors/path, no puzzles no big hidden treasures. Might as well play diablo 3 for zerg to the boss and kill everything on sight. Take a look at how DDO did the dungeons and learn from it Cryptic.
With the already great combat/lore/foundry, add on top of it deeper character customization, more classes and DDO like dungeons and you will have a masterpiece.
It would be nice to have a quick button, similar to asking for help when you die, to let the party know about a trap while crawling through the dungeon. That halo effect around me to quickly let the party know I saw a trap. Maybe limit the number of times it can be cast so there isn't spam.
I agree totally! But for that matter, upping the damage that traps do wouldn't need to make rogues compulsory:
1) optional bits, that are full of traps and locked doors and such. If you don't have a rogue, you can still complete, but you'll have to forfeit the bonus stuff.
2) Dangerous traps, that can be avoided if you know where to walk. If it's your first time in a dungeon, you'll want either a rogue or a guide, or the party will die lots.
3) Traps that are not enough to kill but will slow you down as you spend lots of time healing up your party. Or will use up lots of potions, making it expensive.
4) Traps that don't just do damage but cause debuffs, such as slowing your speed, giving you a disease, reducing your damage, increasing your cooldown times, etc. They'll wear off, so you don't need a rogue, but they will be quite annoying.
5) Traps that can be turned off by a secondary mechanism, such as solving a puzzle or pulling a lever. One team member with a lot of hp can whizz through the traps, heal up, then do the thing that lets the others through. (Especially if they suffer other debuffs like poison too.)
So having a rogue to clear the traps before a battle starts is always a plus, but should never be mandatory. So its a nice feature right now, but you can run a dungeon without it as well. So thats alright I guess. Pretty much the same with missing out on bonus content when you don't bring the according kits.
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I just think it sux how as is every dungeon I ran no 1 even really bothered to disarm traps, and if u did u just got left by the group, and for what? I will tell u for what for nothin, no xp, and no crafting materials, so why even have them in then.
And along with this a trap should if made stronger only trigger 1 time I mean who is rearming these things, I mean I think a rogue should b able to rearm them but, if they only triggered 1 time it would keep full group wipes from happening if u didnt have a rogue. I am by no means trying to make the game a pain in the butt to play I would just like disarming traps to mean something either for the rogue or the the group.
I agree with this post, make 1 out of 5 or 1 out of 10 traps kill the person who triggers the trap. Make it risky like table top D&D! That would make taking the time disarming traps worth disarming the traps especially at higher level or at boss encounters. I also like the idea of action points for disarming traps even if no one dies, at least you get something useful or instant gratification for taking the time to disarm. Dungeons should be more intimidating when you venture into them.
If you're that eager to die I'll oblige you
Tell Ken(shiro) I'll be at the grave of our father, Ryokin
Just as you may need a healer and a tank
That's not really accurate. GW2, for example, launched with eight character classes, and within the Thief alone you have six different weapon combinations (not including underwater), each of which offers five different "encounter" abilities, then three more utility effects, and an elite utility similar to the dailies. There's a whole lot more variety of experience there, you can level a dagger/dagger and shortbow thief to 80 and have a completely different experience than a sword/dagger and pistol/pistol thief.
Also, do we ever see trapped chests?
There is one but I wouldn't try to disarm it
(it bites)
Me not sure if it's cleric or dungeon specific but me would occasionally see mimics acting out an animation from a distance.
Don't recall seeing the same on my GF or Rogue though (Rogue hasn't managed to hit 23 to go to that particular dungeon though).
Hawk:Do this. closing thread
frankieraye: I'll see if we can replace the woman with a stick figure and the tiger fangs with marshmallows./Issues like these need to get escalated quickly to minimize the damage.
Kantorek: Yeah.. you should try it. It's awesome.
Sihndra: Nope- not currently possible under any circumstances. Sorry.
LokisDottir: I mean...not haunting the forums, nope nope.
Konariraiden: You don't know what you are up against. You will lose.
I used that tactic a few times. Works great for the fodder baddies.
Erdan Loreweaver 60 CW 11.3 GS
Mika Hawklight 60 DC 11.5 GS
Rukia Stealthfoot 60 TR 11.5 GS
Ka D'Argo 60 HR 13.7 GS
Ivan Ironfist 60 GWF 11.6 GS
Erdan Loreweaver 60 CW 11.3 GS
Mika Hawklight 60 DC 11.5 GS
Rukia Stealthfoot 60 TR 11.5 GS
Ka D'Argo 60 HR 13.7 GS
Ivan Ironfist 60 GWF 11.6 GS
Erdan Loreweaver 60 CW 11.3 GS
Mika Hawklight 60 DC 11.5 GS
Rukia Stealthfoot 60 TR 11.5 GS
Ka D'Argo 60 HR 13.7 GS
Ivan Ironfist 60 GWF 11.6 GS