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Can we have a Goliath race, please?

slit518slit518 Member Posts: 2 Arc User
edited August 2012 in General Discussion (PC)
I would like it if this game had the inclusion of the Goliath race. Can we please get a Goliath race? I am not sure how 4th edition works but I hope they still have the powerbuild ability, and if so I hope it works on Monk's natural weapons as well.b:thanks
Post edited by slit518 on

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  • tavargtavarg Member Posts: 7 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    Admittedly this is my first DD game to really follow. I never got into the pencil and paper games as a kid. Probably because I did not have any friends who were into it and truthfully I loved being outside acting out my adventures more than inside acting them out on paper. I guess you could say I am more visual and hands on that's not a good or bad thing, it's just my thing.

    I didn?t know weather Goliaths were part of DD lore or not. (Apparently they are)

    My question is this, it always seems to me that Dwarves become misplaced when it comes to being a tank whenever another more heavily laden more constitution more strength oriented race becomes part of the fray and dwarfs I feel are left by the wayside.

    What is you opinion? Reference other games you have enjoyed playing and weather or not you feel the introduction of for example a; Minotaur or other melee based race diminishes the appeal of the Dwarven race
  • iamtruthseekeriamtruthseeker Member, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    slit518 wrote: »
    I would like it if this game had the inclusion of the Goliath race. Can we please get a Goliath race? I am not sure how 4th edition works but I hope they still have the powerbuild ability, and if so I hope it works on Monk's natural weapons as well.b:thanks

    We're going to have to wait for the game to be released before they start adding a whole other race that looks that different than the others. But I too support this race.

    tavarg wrote: »
    Admittedly this is my first DD game to really follow. I never got into the pencil and paper games as a kid. Probably because I did not have any friends who were into it and truthfully I loved being outside acting out my adventures more than inside acting them out on paper. I guess you could say I am more visual and hands on that's not a good or bad thing, it's just my thing.

    I didn?t know weather Goliaths were part of DD lore or not. (Apparently they are)

    My question is this, it always seems to me that Dwarves become misplaced when it comes to being a tank whenever another more heavily laden more constitution more strength oriented race becomes part of the fray and dwarfs I feel are left by the wayside.

    What is you opinion? Reference other games you have enjoyed playing and weather or not you feel the introduction of for example a; Minotaur or other melee based race diminishes the appeal of the Dwarven race


    Goliaths are very similar to half-giants of earlier lore (and even are called such in the Dark Sun campaign instead of Goliaths.) Dwarves will always be a part of D&D, but you seem to be confusing the role of a class with the role of a race.

    In 4E, classes now are assigned roles. Defender is the "aggro management" assignment (fighter is the best-known one) class that makes enemies focus on that character instead of going after (say) the (sometimes glass cannon) DPS roles of Striker. My New Users FAQ (second section) should clear this up if any of you have questions on this.

    Of course, the endurance and immovableness of the dwarf are still represented in the game. The dwarf's racial powers state that it is moved (pushed pulled, slid, etc) one square less than the (when successful) attacking power against them states and powers that knock them down (prone) grant the dwarf a save to resist that. It's called (appropriately) "Stand Your Ground:"
    Stand Your Ground: When an effect forces you to move?through a pull, a push, or a slide?you can move 1 square less than the effect specifies. This means an effect that normally pulls, pushes, or slides a target 1 square does not force you to move unless you want to. In addition, when an attack would knock you prone, you can make a saving throw to avoid falling prone.

    As for what the Goliath does racially speaking, it can jump with two athletics checks using the best one ans gets a once an encounter resist x to damage until the end of its next turn. How that would be ported to this MMO, I'm not speculating on this post as of yet (I'm thinking of how it could work in this MMO as well as waiting to see more game-play such as do we have jumping variables in this game or should that racial ability be altered for something else?)
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • ambisinisterrambisinisterr Member, Neverwinter Moderator Posts: 10,462 Community Moderator
    edited August 2012
    After the game is released and all the bugs are flushed out I hope we can see a wide array of races come into the game.
    To me the more the merrier but of course this would all take time and money so let's let the game be released before we jump to requesting additional features such as races, feats and the like.

    As for dwarves being "misplaced" there is a logical reason to this, dwarves as a race (generally) get +2 to their constitution builds. They are called in the literary sense a "hardy race" which tend to be stubborn, good drinking and hard to hurt (other than emotionally)
    Also as far as race goes dwarves tend to remain the kings of tankiness and there's very few races they could throw in which would threaten that.

    In D&D, as truth said, classes determine the role of a player, not their race.

    There are dwarves who aren't strong tanky classes but it is the general norm of the race because strong tanky classes are aided by the natural dwarven traits. This type of tendency can be found through most of the races such as elven archers, halfling thieves, and gnome wizards to name a few. These are tendencies since the race itself works well for those types of classes.

    You're free to play how you want. Until NW comes out I highly suggest you play a game such as NWN 1/2 or DOO in order to get an idea of how the actual D&D rules work. The games shouldn't cost much and will help you get your foot in the door.
    Sadly the only bad part about D&D is the best part...it has a lot of rules.
  • tavargtavarg Member Posts: 7 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    Thanks for the insight, Iamtruthseeker, and the link to the section on controllers striker etc
    It did clear up some things.
    However?..

    To be fair I wasn?t aware exactly how cryptic was going to set up class skills or skill types but also to be fair they are not unlike other games either. For example mages and archers tend to wear lighter armor and therefore need to be able to inflict considerable dmg to their foes before they have direct hand to hand combat. Rogues similarly must be able to inflict large amounts of dmg at a faster rate because of their week armor, we can boil this down and further down adding they need light armor to move stealthly, light armor and smaller weapon type to grant additional speed and further but why continut? Its a chicken or egg conundrum do rogues attacks cause more dmg because they are less apt to defend themselves or do they chose to wear less armor so they can sneak in close and do more dmg. I say both.

    Iamtruthseeker you stated that:

    "Dwarves will always be a part of D&D, but you (Tavarg) seem to be confusing the role of a class with the role of a race."

    Ambisinister points out:

    "There are dwarves who aren't strong tanky classes but it is the general norm of the race because strong tanky classes are aided by the natural dwarven traits. This type of tendency can be found through most of the races such as Elven archers, halfling thieves, and gnome wizards to name a few. These are tendencies since the race itself works well for those types of classes."

    I concur,

    Certain races tend to lend themselves more readily to certain classes. That is because in lore races are given special race qualities that set them apart. (it?s the same in life, when someone thinks about a brilliant math oriented people they think Germans, tech oriented Japanese artsy French or Italian etc.) Why make a mage dwarf when an Elvin mage gets int plus and dex plus (in most games) this only handicaps you as a player. Play to your strength not your weaknesses. Likewise with Goliaths, though I have never played a "Goliath," lore would suggest having a formidable size advantage i.e. strength and constitution i.e. hard headedness bc their kin the giants.

    So yes class my define your role but pound for pound all things the same an elf mage is better than a human one and I think a Goliath agro king would be better than a dwarf one.

    Just my perception as seen over the course of my MMO playing
  • ambisinisterrambisinisterr Member, Neverwinter Moderator Posts: 10,462 Community Moderator
    edited August 2012
    The wonderful thing about D&D is that it has had 40 years to balance itself. I wasn't really stating that dwarves are tanky so should only be played as a tanky class. Merely pointing out why they typically are (in lore and in games)


    As far as the D&D games go in many cases it does not make sense to play a class which doesn't reward you with traits that helps your class but it can be beneficial to do so anyway due to unique racial feats or abilities.
    The only class I would say is truly punished (in 3e) for not having the highest primary ability they can is the wizard. Additional spell slots (and outright inability to cast 9th level spells under 19/20 int?) certainly was less than beneficial.
    Any other class could be penalized by their racial traits and still work out well such as elven melee fighters. Their con may be low but they still do very well as a fighter/ranger/rogue.

    I grew up playing AD&D where these oddities weren't actually even allowed to exist. Dwarven wizards? Hell you were lucky to have a dwarf in the same room as a wizard.
    In that sense the rules have relaxed a lot so I guess that allows me to appreciate the ability to choose a bit more.

    Gilrmn should know the actual answer to this but from looking up 4e racial traits it actually appears that they have taken away the negative modifiers. In 3e an elf got a bonus to DEX but a penalty to CON, dwarves got a bonus to CON but a penalty to CHAR.
    Those penalties were the biggest limiting factor in characters creating non-racial benefitting classes...so if this change is true we should be expecting a lot more oddball combinations.
    Without the penalties everything would be beneficial regardless of where the traits go rather than balance out and leave you at a disadvantage like we found in 3e.


    If you truly have an interest in how the systems work go try DDO and it will at least give you a feel for how the classes and races differentiate themselves.


    P.S. The armor each class wears has NOTHING to do with damage.
    Wizards use clothing because it inhibits their ability to cast. You could put full platemail on a wizard...but you will fail to cast every single spell.
    Rogues wear light armor because heavier armor makes more noise and thus inhibits their sneaky skills.
    Monks wear clothing because they rely on their mobility.

    The armor each class chooses to use has some sort of lore to go with it and really doesn't cause them to be any more or less vulnerable to attack.
    Although a monk wears no armor by the time they are level 20 they will be tankier than any fighter. Might as well have renamed level 20 monks in NWN to "Gods."
    Basically wizards have to use defensive spells in lieu of phyical armor, rogues use their ability to dodge instead of physical armor and monks...well they use the ability to realize there is no spoon to stop bullets in mid air.

    D&D is not the stereotypical game of balancing dps to defense. I could spend an entire novel explaining why each and every class is balanced on it's own merits but honestly it's better for you to just go out and try a bit of D&D.
    It's not like any other game out there.
  • iamtruthseekeriamtruthseeker Member, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    Yes, there are no more negative racial attributes since $e, and monks no longer have guaranteed godlike AC classes, following the role as striker.

    For better or for worse, 4E severely emphasizes balanced classes when they work together.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • gillrmngillrmn Member Posts: 7,800 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    yes, no more negetive/penelties. Also save or die rarely exists. So a campaign is more predictable. (Damn those players killing all npc in kingdom).

    Dwarves are still the hardy race. They have bonus to constitution just like goliath and they can be good at wisdom too (optional, if you go for cleric or fighter). Another point to note is that they are as strong as human while having medium to small size-so they can dodge a giant but goliath can't. Their immunities to poisons etc. are not shared by goliath. So racially, they are still more suited for tanking.

    However, in 4e, race benefits are overrules by class roles and active powers you have chosen.

    EDIT: Regarding monk, I feel it is for better. Instead of a good-for-nothing or good-at everything monk, we now have good at something monk.
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