Rogue Tank Playstyle

trikiran

After watching the new video for the rogue class I am hoping the dev's allow for a new form of "rogue tank" There are many new games mmo's and genre's of this fast paced twitch tanking style. I won't name names, but there is several mmo's and top console games starting to play with this skill set.

I would love to see some skill based "hard to die" playstyle. in this rogue class, It would cement my long term play and support of this title.

khoraxgator

Rogues are generally not Tanks. In 4e They do not start off with access to the heaviest of armors..

However, in 4e heavy armors prevent a dexterity bonus to Armor class, so wearing a light armor works better for them in the long run. It's in this way that a Rogue can sometimes have an AC that is better than the Fighter starting out.

Rogues do not have as much HP as the Fighter, however, they're much more skilled at damage outpuit, getting bonus damage whenever they get Combat Advantage against an opponent (if they are unaware of the attack, or if they are being flanked, or otherwise affected by abilities that grant Combat Advantage)

devoteoftempus

Chances are they won't tank , they will provide some top melee DPS but squishy. However the game is not designed behind your typical holy trinity. Encounters relies on others to do their job, for instance the dungeon demo. If you stay in the shadow whatever stuff bad stuff is gonna happen. Each class has it's own evasion, warrior has block, rogue the dodging, wizard the porting I think it was. I hope they take GW2 approach where teamwork is key not spamming heals on the tank.

gillrmn

I think rogue can 'tank' using tricks like dropping that dummy, but they won't be able to tank with AC etc. It is more like distracting enemy away from other party members.

However this game, it seems, has more of a Defender style than a tank for fighter. If rogue distracts the monster while defender is on it, the monster will instead get stunned (probably) so there won't be any need to tank when using a proper party.

iamtruthseeker

One of the things for character class setup in 4e is the "suggested configuration" or build template. While feats can specialize on one specific area, build templates cover the entire class.


While in the book version it's simply a "suggested setup" on where you put your stats, non-attack skills (perception, thievery, diplomacy/intimidate, etc.) feats, etc., the game has been made clear that (to non-power gamers at least) to developers the person was finding the setup too difficult to customize in this level of detail.

So the type of class configured would be configured by the build itself, with (upcoming) multiple build options.


So we all know the trickster build of the rogue class. In the case of the stronger "tank like build," we have the Brawny Rogue, which I will detail below:

BRAWNY ROGUE
You like powers that deal plenty of damage, aided by your Strength, and also stun, immobilize, knock down, or push your foes. Your attacks use Dexterity, so keep that your highest ability score. Strength should be a close second?it increases your damage directly, and it can determine other effects of your attacks. Charisma is a good third ability score, particularly if you want to dabble in powers from the other rogue build. Select the brutal scoundrel rogue tactic, and look for powers that pack a lot of damage into every punch.
Suggested Feat: Weapon Focus (Human feat: Toughness)
Suggested Skills: Athletics, Dungeoneering, Intimidate, Stealth, Streetwise, Thievery
Suggested At-Will Powers: piercing strike, riposte strike
Suggested Encounter Power: torturous strike
Suggested Daily Power: easy target

So while I can't say how this could be ported into the MMO specifically, I can say how this could translate. This build makes more use of a higher overall physical Strength damage, higher hp total, and a more aggro/fear (intimidate skill) setup. Instead of focusing on looking for vulnerabilities when the target grants combat advantage for its primary attacks, the attacks suggested focus using brute power and your strength attribute and having an overall better to hit attack bonus.

So while a rogue as "defender" is possible, it is not done so using typical MMO things such as heavy armor or damage absorbing but more like the aggro/taunt/fear methods and can take the damage when hit compared to its more DPS hit and run counterpart.

geo129

I know most MMO's think of every class by the "WoW trinity" of tank/healer/dps, and if classes don't fit into that mold then people consider it a broken class. However, DnD has been dealing with adventuring parties and addressed the idea of class roles for a lot longer than any MMO.

Neverwinter classes fit in 4 defined roles, by 4th edition DnD: Controller, Defender, Leader, and Striker. I think it would be best to fit classes into those roles, not the WoW trinity "clone-game" model. And I'm guessing you're asking about a rogue defender.

Well, a rogue's primary function in a party isn't to be a front-line fighter. It's to detect and disarm traps, gather information either by sneaking around an enemy encampment or making local knowledge checks, and in combat to outflank enemies and sneak attack... basically he's a skill character. I believe what you're looking for is the Warden class, which most likely won't be in game at launch, but hopefully will be one day.

iamtruthseeker

geo129 wrote: »

I know most MMO's think of every class by the "WoW trinity" of tank/healer/dps, and if classes don't fit into that mold then people consider it a broken class. However, DnD has been dealing with adventuring parties and addressed the idea of class roles for a lot longer than any MMO.

Neverwinter classes fit in 4 defined roles, by 4th edition DnD: Controller, Defender, Leader, and Striker. I think it would be best to fit classes into those roles, not the WoW trinity "clone-game" model. And I'm guessing you're asking about a rogue defender.

Well, a rogue's primary function in a party isn't to be a front-line fighter. It's to detect and disarm traps, gather information either by sneaking around an enemy encampment or making local knowledge checks, and in combat to outflank enemies and sneak attack... basically he's a skill character. I believe what you're looking for is the Warden class, which most likely won't be in game at launch, but hopefully will be one day.

Seconded to hopefully it will be one day. Goliath wardens rock...err, no pun intended!

kullska

I was able to successfully build a Brauny Rogue Defender using 4e local rules by taking a Fighter feat allowing me to mark targets. Now before you say it, I know multi-classing isn't on the table yet ("yet" being a hopeful keyword). However, since it isn't a very far stretch from Brauny Rogue Striker to Brauny Rogue Defender, I can see this being a viable option just by careful choices in encounter and daily powers.

Btw, I'm a huge fan of non-standard tank/defenders being able to step in and fill that role. And while we are on the subject of wishful classes, show me a Warlord please!

vangald

I can't see a reason to have a rogue tank. That is kind of the realm of fighter. That said I have talked about my want of a dirty fighter character once upon a time.

arubak

After playing many different MMO's I can honestly say that the idea of a rogue tank is not that far fetched nor that hard to actually do. Case in point Rift, by Trion, they have a tank soul for rogues and if the player knows what they are doing it is one of the best tanks in the game. But therein lies the rub, the player MUST know what they are doing. Rogue tank/defender would be feasible in a D&D environment as well but the player has to know what they are doing, and the Producers have to have a way to implement it. I have played a tank in WoW, Conan, and Rift. I have met people who have played a tank who had no right to even be near the bloody keyboard in that role, in WoW I was a warrior tank, same in Conan, in Rift I played the rogue tank and it took a lot of skill, patience, and the ability to take criticism properly to learn how to do it properly. Personally rogues need to stay as either a control or damage role in D&D, stuns, slow downs, and various trapping abilities make them almost as good as a wizard for control, as for damage look at the character Artemis Entreri long sword and dagger and second to none but the master of the dance himself Drizzt. The damage rogue using the weapons they have, the environment, and exploitation of weaknesses to quickly dispatch the enemy they are facing, the damage rogue has a few control abilities but those are secondary to how they combine the moves and techniques they have at their disposal.

gillrmn

This is a cloned topic(as admitted by opener in his post there) from here with much of disussion having already taken place. So I would suggest you to not ressurect it so as to have same discussion all over again.

grimwulf

trikiran wrote: »

After watching the new video for the rogue class I am hoping the dev's allow for a new form of "rogue tank" There are many new games mmo's and genre's of this fast paced twitch tanking style. I won't name names, but there is several mmo's and top console games starting to play with this skill set.

I would love to see some skill based "hard to die" playstyle. in this rogue class, It would cement my long term play and support of this title.

Where is this "New Rogue Video" you speak of?