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The cost of "end game" and Random Queue keys
First, I'm happy to have the new content, so thank you.
The RTQ keys for the epic versions of end game trials should be switched over to skeletons or the cost for the keys reduced. It's really difficult to get the keys even if you're in the zones, but for new players who haven't even gotten there yet, they can't even buy the key for RTQs that they're able to get into. And honestly, even if they could get into these zones to get the currency to get the key... the grind for that much currency to make a SINGLE key is insane. It's kinda crappy enough that you have to grind that much to get one for a master dungeon/trial, especially considering the cost of previous campaigns. They're far too expensive overall, but if nothing else, the RTQ versions should be switched. If I'm being honest, the new Juma ... basically useless at this rate since the currency is so difficult to get.
Maybe up the currency drop rate from heroics/dungeons, or from driders (and add the currency to purchase the key). Possibly give a chance for keys to drop from activities in the zones. There's a lot of possibilities here. I'm not sure why it's suddenly become so difficult and labor intensive to be able to get a key, but, if the purpose was to get us to play more because we have to grind more, if I'm being honest, all it's doing for me is making me grind less and maybe even making me less interested in trying to run end game because I'm not going to run it if I don't have keys for it, and I'm not going to grind for many, many hours a day in each of the individual campaigns to get enough currency to make a key daily for each of them.
Thank you.
The RTQ keys for the epic versions of end game trials should be switched over to skeletons or the cost for the keys reduced. It's really difficult to get the keys even if you're in the zones, but for new players who haven't even gotten there yet, they can't even buy the key for RTQs that they're able to get into. And honestly, even if they could get into these zones to get the currency to get the key... the grind for that much currency to make a SINGLE key is insane. It's kinda crappy enough that you have to grind that much to get one for a master dungeon/trial, especially considering the cost of previous campaigns. They're far too expensive overall, but if nothing else, the RTQ versions should be switched. If I'm being honest, the new Juma ... basically useless at this rate since the currency is so difficult to get.
Maybe up the currency drop rate from heroics/dungeons, or from driders (and add the currency to purchase the key). Possibly give a chance for keys to drop from activities in the zones. There's a lot of possibilities here. I'm not sure why it's suddenly become so difficult and labor intensive to be able to get a key, but, if the purpose was to get us to play more because we have to grind more, if I'm being honest, all it's doing for me is making me grind less and maybe even making me less interested in trying to run end game because I'm not going to run it if I don't have keys for it, and I'm not going to grind for many, many hours a day in each of the individual campaigns to get enough currency to make a key daily for each of them.
Thank you.
Post edited by sylk#8605 on
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Assuming that is what you mean to say, you still can do that if you have the campaign currency. What OP complained about is those who did not get into campaign but are allowed to get into Epic Trial. Also, the cost of the key is too high.
I assume his "RTQ" was a typo because Random Trial Queue does not include end game dungeon.
I think it's true for all but Tiamat and Demogorgon (keys from the wondrous bazaar). Any others?
But the overall cost of the keys, and the subsequent relentless drive to get enough currency for one campaign, let alone keys for three campaigns, makes me completely unwilling to even try to get them. I assume the BHEs and HEs are the same for the campaigns in between Sharandar and Menzo, to the tune of BHEs in Menzo =20 and HEs=10
The weekly heroics quest, generally requires you to do five. So, if you are only doing the "weeklies" and it requires one BHE and four HEs, that's 60 currency. So... three weeks for a key if you only do weeklies, really? If you grind for them, it's 7 BHEs per day, per campaign, assuming three campaigns. But if this costs even more of the same currency... now we have to make 200 a day, or... 250 a day? That's even more grinding.
Well, yes, I suppose I could *buy* keys from the zen store if I wanted to, however, I spend plenty of money on this game, and I don't want to spend money to get those keys. DDD is coming up this week.. you should get some shard of greater empowerment drops from that with any luck, but.. you could buy those from the zen store, I think.
For doing the master version, you get more currency than it takes to make a key, if we count both chests. However, using the keys for the normal version is just not worth it at all, assuming you are able to do the master version too.
I would like to see all normal version trials take skeleton/greater demonic keys, perhaps a new key, specifically for normal trials.
This change would make the key tasks useless for people who are not able to finish the master versions though.
As someone who is able to do the master versions, it does feel bad having to leave the 2nd chest in normal versions, but it is the better thing to do with the current system, long term. The master versions just have better rewards, and you can argue it's a waste of a key in this situation.
- in SKT for legacy campaigns the options of Bryn Shander for HEs and Coldrun for quests are just very fast
- and for CoK the quests and heroics don't give much currency + if you want to get some collectibles from that campaign, buying keys really sets you back
For the other campaigns:
- Demo and Tia do not have any issues since you just need to spend some AD
- Cradle also does not have problems from my point of few since a weekly quest in Omu gives the required currency for one key + those quests are good options for doing legacy campaign quests in Chult
So my suggestion for CoK and Gzemnid would be to set the currency received by a weekly quest from the respective campaigns to at least the costs of a key. That should probably also be a solution for the spider key for ToS. The normal ToS should really just use a skeleton key, because you can enter this dungeon much earlier before even being able to get the key.
For Svardborg: a solution could be an old-school approach by re-using the runic key from the campaign. That key would also make sense, since it is from that campaign and takes resource from said campaign. Those resources also can be acquired with a reasonable amount of effort.
If there are concerns about the loss of money from a development point of view since maybe less people buy dragon keys: You can also add gift of the djinn items for newer campaigns like dragon bone vale earlier and try to generate the revenue that way. I don't know how many people are buying these keys for that reason but i doubt that there are that many.
The cost of campaign keys has an “ecosystem” attached to it. Reducing the cost of keys potentially >>> reduces the amount of time players spend in the zone >>> reduces the amount of available players to complete heroic encounters, quests, etc. >>> players will probably then be complaining that they can’t complete content because there’s no one around to help…
Personally don’t have an issue with campaign key costs (not that any else can’t). The currency for keys isn’t capped weekly and the non-weekly quests are repeatable indefinitely. Unfortunately the currency is also used for other tasks so if keys are sought, doing additional quests to help fund them is pretty much necessary.
Newer players have it quite “easy” now compared to years back. Previously one wasn’t “end game” until after leveling up, getting the boons from campaigns which took about a month of daily/weekly quests each to complete (if you did any/all simultaneously it would take less time overall) and obtaining high level enchantments, equipment (weapons, armor, artifacts, insignias, etc.). These days new players can reach end game content (doesn’t mean they will be effective, simply means they can queue for the content) within a few hours pretty much as soon as they reach level 20 being that 35k is quite easy to achieve with low level or no enchantments, a cheap artifact neck/belt, shirt/pants, rings, mounts, companions, absolutely zero boons and little grinding if any…
The game was streamlined to quickly get players to a point where they will be strongly faced with either spending money and or grinding it out.
If you really feel like campaign keys are a considerable grind, let’s jump in the wayback machine so you can compare the days of future past where end game was months/years away rather than a few hours (/joke).
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY
"No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Ongoing Issue: Legitmate Players Banned for Botting (Console) and the Future for "Dedicated" Players
Suggestions: (Implemented) \/\/ Rearrange Character on character Select Screen
Special key for special rewards in the master versions is fine.
-normal and master version
-2 keys
-skeleton key
-any "universal" key
like stated before, dont make dead ends with keys, we arleady are limited on obtaining them time and cost wise
In the past if you had the ilvl for end game content (which took a lot more effort), along the way you arguably/hopefully developed the skill to go along with it to be effective in end game content. Today players can get the ilvl very easily with no idea how class/content mechanics work which essentially burdens the group into carrying them yet they get rewarded as well, and sometimes handsomely.
Each campaign has a “required” ilvl though sometimes the current Mod lifts the ilvl requirement. If you can't effectively stay alive in a campaign zone (especially when considerably below the “required” ilvl), it will essentially be the same in its queued content which will definitely impact the group's chances of completion. Might have read that wrong though not sure how there can be newer players that don't know what to do and at the same time there not be newer players but new characters started by players "who have already been around and achieved that on their current main".
If inspecting, personally am looking at characters with no enchantments/leveling enchantments, missing/green/blue artifacts, common companions/mounts, etc. as new players because in content their impact on the group is essentially the same (not being effective). Being effective in end game content is months away, not achieving the ilvl to queue for content. Players for the most part DO NOT wait until they are effective in content before they queue for it... Just think what would happen if higher tier players solely RQ'ed with other high tier players...
Mod 24 (Northdark Reaches) is 10 weeks as well. Keeping up with the current Mod as well as working on previous Mods requires effort, fortunately there are things like campaign buyouts, x2 campaign currency events, etc. to bypass the time it takes to complete them and there are periodic sales on ZEN market items and discount vouchers from invocation bags (20% off any item) to reduce the cost to obtain them, how a player gets their ZEN is their choice (waiting and or buying). A positive thing about Neverwinter is with the right timing a player can considerably reduce the time/money costs to make considerable progress.
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY
"No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Ongoing Issue: Legitmate Players Banned for Botting (Console) and the Future for "Dedicated" Players
Suggestions: (Implemented) \/\/ Rearrange Character on character Select Screen
It either takes no time at all to get a toon to end game or it requires a massive grind. It can't really be both. Some of these campaigns have to be done to get the right gear for end game and this is just reinforcing the point that it's not possible get a toon there from a player who is creating a toon for the first time, as opposed to a person who is creating their 20th toon and has at least some of the gear stored from another toon who has run the content. And then the point that not everyone has a Neverwinter savings account to spend as much money as they want in the Zen store. And if you're waiting on the exchange, it's 8 months, assuming that the player can get the AD to exchange for enough Zen to buy it.
There is an argument for the IL being a guide to what content a person can actually do, except... it's completely off. You can't fault a player for thinking that they're capable of doing that when the guideline for the content is provided by the game. On one hand, you're suggesting that people should use the "quick" solutions to upgrade their toons... but that doesn't really give them the experience of learning their toon.
But all in all, this is about randoms, not about end game and how quick you can get there. Just make it a skeleton key, universally, across the board, for the second chests.
The chests are an incentive to run queued content, some chests require keys to open and some keys require currency to make them. Different content/queue type chests may have some unique items in their loot table though other than those unique items, the loot tables are essentially the same (higher tier queues have more valuable items in their loot table and vice versa). Completing all the adventures will grant over 800k rAD.
Level 20 = end game being that the character can queue for end game content with the minimum ilvl. How long it takes to get to level 20 depends on the player.
Being effective at end game content takes considerably longer and depends on how much a person plays and or if and how much money they spend.
^ That's how it is both. ^ Good point.
It is initially on the devs for streamlining the game the way they did without content that players have to go through that will actually help players learn different classes (the training room was a start though it doesn't do into detail). Some enemies in particular zones have attacks that are similar to what the bosses can do though it's not always obvious.
When a character first begins a campaign and the character they are on is below the "required" ilvl there "should" be a varying prompt notifying them of difficulty based on their current ilvl, this will help prevent the "Well I was able to get into the zone, why can't I survive, why is it so hard" type things.
Arguably it starts to be on the players when they can't effectively participate in content yet also don't want to put in the effort to become more effective/claim they don't have the time to do so yet still feel they should be able to have easy access to high tier queued content rewards. It actually is about end game because without 30k+ ilvl, a character cannot queue for the content that grants end game currency for boons, equipment, campaign tasks, etc.
Arguably they are not going to consider making the second chest a skeleton key because they sell Legendary Dragon Keys in the ZEN market. Even if they were to consider it, knowing how the devs have done things in the past, they would want to also lower the loot table quality/reduce drop rates if you use a skeleton key.
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY
"No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Ongoing Issue: Legitmate Players Banned for Botting (Console) and the Future for "Dedicated" Players
Suggestions: (Implemented) \/\/ Rearrange Character on character Select Screen
800rAD... yeah, that will get us far. Toss that up on the exchange and see what it gets you in eight months. Twelve enhancements, five coals a piece, 60 coal motes=$600 on the Zen store. That's without the 20%. $450 with. I am pretty sure that 800k rAD does not make the equivalent of $450 worth of Zen.
Ultimately, the long and the short of it, the hard truth is that the more they aim this for "whales" or the "elite" the more they're going to alienate the average player. It's the average player that keeps this game alive, not the financial or end game elite. There's plenty they could do to target the average (or all) players... and make money. Create actual fashion to sell, create player housing and sell things to go in it, or sell the housing on the zen market...there are plenty of areas to bring an income in. Smacking down the average player who doesn't have the money to spend hundreds, or... more realistically, thousands of dollars to upgrade their characters in a game where bugs that have been around for years are prevalent and generally the only bugs or changes (like making everything account/character bound) that get fixed are things that benefit a player, but the things that aggravate the player, like bugged dungeons are left.. it's a continuous cycle that alienates the player base.
There's a more neutral line between making things a grind that maintains player participation, making things too easy, and making things far too much of a grind. They're not meeting it. If they want to keep the keys excessively hard to get for the "elite", then do it, but random queues aren't usually what the elite are going for and the keys are too hard to get for the players who meet the "IL" requirements for the queues. Most of them can't even get into the zones to farm the keys.
Refuting your argument that it's on the players when they can't effectively participate in content... no. It's on the developers. It's on the developers to make this game fun. It's not on the players. To say that it is their job to make sure they can do content that's fun.. and to meet the grind is unrealistic because when they get bored, frustrated or just plan fed up, they're not going to keep grinding. They're going to go play the many, many other games out there. There needs to be a valid, clearly outlined and most importantly, achievable path. This game does not encourage people to join up. Quests done in a party are bugged and you have to go solo to get them to work or get credit, or you don't get credit for the quests when you're in a party.. Strongholds and guilds need updated, and a lot of the stuff there is completely out of date and obsolete. The only zone I've seen that actually, actively encourages group participation is Menzo. It is, actually, an extraordinarily well-done area, in my opinion. But, the average player can only get there while the IL req is dropped. That doesn't help future new players.
I run a guild. We are a lot of higher IL players that help younger/newer players, in an alliance that does the same. Our focus is not "end game" trials. Our focus is on the newer members. We do this on a daily basis. There is a serious and significant gap in getting over that hump between reaching 20 and upgrading your IL to get to the other content. It's not just based on player dedication to the grind. The set up for progression needs work. But, all of that, is besides the point, ultimately.
Back to the long and the short of it: The randoms are meant for the average player who is stuck grinding, and the keys need to be reasonably accessible. Arguing that the player could go grind away every single day for hours to get keys for this when they've got so much else to grind for endlessly, just isn't reasonable. It just isn't. Some people want to do that. Most don't. Some of a grind is acceptable An endless grind just drives more people away. The game needs more people to survive. The few who are willing to do that sort of grinding .. well, I wouldn't go so far as to say they're few and far between, but they are not the average player.
And now, Trinity, it has been lovely debating with you, but I need to go grind what's left of Jubilee to get stuff for my guild and helping my guild members. Peace!
The average player is not a whale nor plays for a “considerable” amount of time per week so how much they spend and how much they play sets the “basis” for their progression and anything outside of that basis will cost them more time/money. The game targets those that want to progress fast. Neverwinter is a long term investment, especially of time.
A player thinking they are going to progress fast without inputting a considerable amount of time/money are quite mistaken, it’s unrealistic. Neverwinter has multiple layers of grind and “meeting the grind” IS the prerequisite for progression in Neverwinter whether you meet it with time/effort and or money. The longer it takes to complete older content the less time there will be available for the latest. Sometimes particular things have to be set aside temporarily so that they are not in the way of future progress.
Personally if older content is to be done, all rotations of the daily quests are collected prior and are completed solely during a x2 currency event with the corresponding Sybella bonus activated (if available) which overall grants more than 3x the campaign currency with minimal effort giving way to do other things between the x2 events.
The “elite” players (high ilvl with stats to match) ARE do RQ’s for rAD and without the elite players, RQ’s would essentially fall apart because the chances of a full at ilvl group effectively completing the is arguably quite low. In other words, without the higher ilvl players the cost of campaign keys really wouldn’t matter to lower ilvl players because they wouldn’t be consistently completing the content to use them in the first place.
The game indirectly encourages grouping up especially with the “best” equipment only being obtainable through group content. The devs “shouldn’t” have to use coding for players to help/want to help each other. The latest content is a prime example of how teamwork can decrease the workload for all that participate, including how long it takes to get enough campaign currency for keys.
Currently players can queue for content long before they are effective in it and are often enough carried through by higher ilvl players and are often allowed into new Mod zones even when they do not meet the ilvl requirement and can get help to complete objectives. Those are advantages players can utilize and campaign key costs are a kind of tradeoff compared to the alternative of ilvl requirements for zones not being lifted and raising the ilvl requirements for RQ’s, lower ilvl players will be left out for sure then. If players want campaign keys for RQ content especially that they are not yet effective in yet can queue for/don’t meet the required ilvl for the zone then the current effort to obtain those keys goes along with that.
The 800k rAD was referenced for helping get a character to 35k+ ilvl.
The game could use more things for players to do (that are less intensive), that you are agreed with, then again, wouldn’t that add even more things for the average player to be tasked with? See the cycle? The game could use a “better” progression system and Mod 26 has some interesting things to help both newer and more experienced players.
The "Slightly Longer" Version
A player thinking they are going to complete 30+ day campaigns (especially simultaneously) AND make considerable progress while playing a few hours a week AND in a short amount of time AND without spending money, are quite mistaken, it’s unrealistic given the format of the game (and with the recent roadmap the amount of content is supposed to increase semi-regularly). Neverwinter has layers of grind on top of layers of grind which pretty much makes up the majority of the game and the more time is takes to complete the previous, the less time until the new arrives. “Meeting the grind” IS the prerequisite for progression in Neverwinter whether you meet it with time/effort and or money… Campaigns are essentially one of the largest grind layers being that they are time gated so the sooner you begin them, the sooner you can begin completing them. Completing the previous campaigns is going to take time and if the majority of a player’s time is spent in the new content (for whatever reason(s)), it will only extend the amount of time it will take to complete previous content. Sometimes particular things have to be set aside so others can be completed. Players can’t have it both ways, unless of course they put in the time/money to do so.
Personally used to run older zone content for others on a daily basis on multiple characters since it was personally being ran anyway, the only criteria was to collect all the daily quests (or stick around for the ones you needed) and “keep up” with the group. Now if older content is to be done, all daily quests are collected prior (since they usually rotate quest sets about every 3 days before repeating) and they are completed solely during a x2 currency event with the corresponding Sybella bonus activated (and then the quests are collected again and completed on the last or next to the last day of the event) which overall grants more than 3x the campaign currency with minimal effort and frees up a considerable amount of time between the x2 events to do other things.
The “elite” players (high ilvl with stats to match) ARE going for RQ’s because there are sizeable amounts of rAD with the daily bonuses. Without the elite players, RQ’s would essentially fall apart because the chances of a full at ilvl group (all which probably won’t have the stats to match) effectively completing the content (which is horribly scaled) is arguably quite low… In other words, without the higher ilvl players, the cost of campaign keys essentially wouldn’t matter to lower ilvl players because they wouldn’t be consistently completing the content to use them up in the first place…
The game indirectly encourages grouping up, from Guilds/Alliances, heroic encounters (especially in the later campaigns), to the “best” equipment only being obtainable through completing group content… Hell, repeatedly getting smashed in the most current mod zone hopefully would encourage grouping up to help prevent it.
Currently players can queue for content long before they are effective in it and which they are often enough carried through by higher ilvl players and are sometimes allowed into Mod zones with the ilvl requirement being lifted, even though the content will more than likely be more difficult for them though they can get help which helps balance things. Personally feel that those are advantages a number of players utilize and campaign key costs are essentially the tradeoff compared to the alternative of not lifting ilvl requirements for zones and raising the ilvl requirements for RQ’s, then lower ilvl players will be left out for sure… Again, current campaign key costs are a tradeoff for being able to enter queue content one is not yet effective in and players “reasonably” don’t have it both ways currently. If players want campaign keys for RQ content especially that they are not yet effective in yet can queue for/don’t meet the required ilvl for the zone then the current effort to obtain those keys goes along with that...
The 800k rAD was referenced for helping get a character to 35k+ ilvl where they can freely RQ for essentially ALL non-master content even if they are not effective in it. It can be done with a fraction of the 800k rAD. Players can also refine up to 100k AD daily and each day that cap isn't reached is 100k AD left on the table
The game could use more things for players to do (that are less intensive), that you are agreed with, then again, wouldn’t that add even more things for the average player to be tasked with? See the cycle? The game could use a “better” progression system and Mod 26 has some interesting things to help both newer and more experienced players.
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY
"No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Ongoing Issue: Legitmate Players Banned for Botting (Console) and the Future for "Dedicated" Players
Suggestions: (Implemented) \/\/ Rearrange Character on character Select Screen
I also feel like if I queue for a random trial, the number of chests I can potentially open, whether free or with a skeleton key, should be the same regardless of trial. Also, repeat that last sentence for random dungeons.