Hadestemplar-I dont think the point is removing content because some people are incapable of playing it. The point I felt, at least mine is that it wastes your time waiting for it, waiting for people to start and no one wants to play it so they leave and your time is totally wasted. I think Plastic Bat got lucky. It showed up at least 4 times for me in the last week and a half and no one even started. But its been so long for the life of me I cant figure out what "balls" anyone is talking about. Not the explosives you pick up because those only kill the bugs or whatevers crawling. ManyCoin Heist is fading and I agree with Adventure One-just dump it. Like I said its okay if people will play it.
It's not about removing it totally, it's about where it is in the random queue. For those people who go and learn mechanics on YT and take measures to know what they're doing and are very dedicated and take the game seriously, it's not an issue. But the random queues are forced on people and full of players who are NOT like this. This is the issue, not that it's in the game, but where it is in the game. It just a matter of practicality.
Apparently pointing-out the bleeding obvious is a 'personal attack'.
Hadestemplar-I dont think the point is removing content because some people are incapable of playing it. The point I felt, at least mine is that it wastes your time waiting for it, waiting for people to start and no one wants to play it so they leave and your time is totally wasted. I think Plastic Bat got lucky. It showed up at least 4 times for me in the last week and a half and no one even started. But its been so long for the life of me I cant figure out what "balls" anyone is talking about. Not the explosives you pick up because those only kill the bugs or whatevers crawling. ManyCoin Heist is fading and I agree with Adventure One-just dump it. Like I said its okay if people will play it.
So if Manycoins is waste of time, then all skirmishes need to be removed, cuz all them are waste of time.. But wait, what's about non epic dungeons?? Clock tower? Pirate King retreat? they also are more less waste of time, lets cut them all out of game too.
I also seen how players quit LoMM, cuz as per say word: it's waste of time.
So in short all non end contents are waste of time.. So what, should we cut out 80% of game content??
For such players only good content is Opening chests. In CS'Go, some even made mobile app for such type players. A small game, which removed all other contents which can be considered as waste of time. It's called lootbox simulator. And whole game is just that, loot opening.
Now reason why this skirmish and other contents are in random q is rather simple. In mod 12, chult campaig release, devs added Random q system, which purpose where to reuse old content. In short, you are paid to play old content. Cuz otherwise no one would bother with them. I mean, how many times you q for Clock tower dungeon?? Or Lostmouth? Master of hunt( skirmish).?
Now asking to remove x content cuz players think it's waste of time. Well that's mean 90% of game is waste of time. Cuz if this skirmish got removed, then without doubts there will be other in the list, whome players would wish to be removed.
Btw> like 12min ago I just cleared this skirmish with pugs..
Once I get in it, that's what you can see..
once AFK< other left instance and doing other activities. And not quiting group in order not get penalty.
Post edited by hadestemplar#9918 on
======================================================================== “The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim. Gustave Le Bon. ==================================================
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plasticbatMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 12,405Arc User
Hadestemplar-I dont think the point is removing content because some people are incapable of playing it. The point I felt, at least mine is that it wastes your time waiting for it, waiting for people to start and no one wants to play it so they leave and your time is totally wasted. I think Plastic Bat got lucky. It showed up at least 4 times for me in the last week and a half and no one even started. But its been so long for the life of me I cant figure out what "balls" anyone is talking about. Not the explosives you pick up because those only kill the bugs or whatevers crawling. ManyCoin Heist is fading and I agree with Adventure One-just dump it. Like I said its okay if people will play it.
Do you understand why the RQ was introduced? For full disclosure, if you have not noticed already, I have been against having RQ implemented. If there is no RQ, we won't have this 'waste of time' problem.
Now, back to why RQ was introduced. RQ was introduced to 'force' player to HELP player to do hard or unpopular contents. The rAD you got from doing RQ is the 'fee' they pay you to HELP others. Yes, forcing player to do stuff is an unpopular decision. Many just want to get 'pay' and don't want to do the work.
So, removing the hard or unpopular content means the original RQ's purpose is lost. Hence, well, RQ should be removed and player go back to 'earn' rAD like what used to be before RQ. i.e. people chose whatever that they consider "not waste of time", "fun", or ... whatever subjective reason.
For the ball, in phase 2, the enemy keeps coming from 3 portals. To stop enemy, you need to kill the portals. To kill the portal, a fire ball will chain to a player randomly. That player needs to run to the portal (without being killed in the process) and the ball will be pull to the portal to destroy it. Phase 2 finished when 3 portals are destroyed.
Many player do not pay attention. They don't even notice they were chained and let the ball hit them. They don't watch how other players handle the ball.
Post edited by plasticbat on
*** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
Hence, well, RQ should be removed and player go back to 'earn' rAD like what used to be before RQ. i.e. people chose whatever that they consider "not waste of time", "fun", or ... whatever subjective reason.
If I remember correctly, before the RQ, like mod11-12, you were able to tick all the dungeons boxes to get a somewhat "randomization" if you wanted to. In effect, as eToS (epic category) and cloak tower (normal category) were the most farmed (best rAD/time ratio, each one for different reasons), trying to get a randomized dungeon without a premade would get you, with less than 2 minutes of waiting, in one of those 75% of the time (with the occasionnal CN because of people trying to get the orcus wand), while if you were choosing specifically Karrundax or Grey Wolf Den for exemple, you could prepare yourself (especially as a dps) for 30 minutes of waiting (if not more) before it would trigger.
Personnally i'm even more radical than you @plasticbat => I think the matchmaking itself is an aberration in a MMORPG, and everything should be carefully chosen and run as a "premade" party : no matchmaking, no random queue. meet people => talk to them=> play with them. No other order.
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plasticbatMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 12,405Arc User
Hence, well, RQ should be removed and player go back to 'earn' rAD like what used to be before RQ. i.e. people chose whatever that they consider "not waste of time", "fun", or ... whatever subjective reason.
If I remember correctly, before the RQ, like mod11-12, you were able to tick all the dungeons boxes to get a somewhat "randomization" if you wanted to.
You can still do that (just don't do RQ). You get whatever pops first.
In effect, as eToS (epic category) and cloak tower (normal category) were the most farmed (best rAD/time ratio, each one for different reasons), trying to get a randomized dungeon without a premade would get you, with less than 2 minutes of waiting, in one of those 75% of the time (with the occasionnal CN because of people trying to get the orcus wand), while if you were choosing specifically Karrundax or Grey Wolf Den for exemple, you could prepare yourself (especially as a dps) for 30 minutes of waiting (if not more) before it would trigger.
Personnally i'm even more radical than you @plasticbat => I think the matchmaking itself is an aberration in a MMORPG, and everything should be carefully chosen and run as a "premade" party : no matchmaking, no random queue. meet people => talk to them=> play with them. No other order.
That is nothing radical about. Before RQ, you could do premade to earn the same amount of rAD if you want to. Actually, that was the only way I chose back then. i.e. I waited for the people I wanted (if I needed to wait) instead of waiting for random people. I did not do public queue back then.
Picking random match making people was an option. You did not have to choose that option and there was no penalty (as you could earn the same amount of rAD). I even had the option to go in alone to earn the same amount of rAD (if I could finish it alone).
For Karrundax or Grey Wolf Den, there was no waiting because I would just go in alone or with whatever number of people that were ready to come with. Were these for a party of 3 back then?
On the other hand, obviously, this did not help new player because nobody would care to do the "waste of time" dungeons. That was the reason Cryptic created RQ "hoping" that could give incentive for people to help. However, instead of adding real incentive, they just "moved" the rAD from what used to be to RQ. That basically was forcing most players to do RQ.
Post edited by plasticbat on
*** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
I'm going to go out on a limb here and state that those that have "no issues whatsoever" with Manycoins Bank Heist in the Random Queue with PUG's are carrying the PUG group through it. I can't carry anyone through any content and rely on the group as a whole to contribute equally.
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greywyndMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 7,152Arc User
I've never seen myself as a carrier. I do what I can to contribute and do my part.
I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
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plasticbatMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 12,405Arc User
I've never seen myself as a carrier. I do what I can to contribute and do my part.
Same here. The characters I mentioned in this thread who completed Manycoins recently were a cleric who can't heal and a Paladin who can't tank. Ok, mainly it is me who can't heal or tank.
*** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
Sorry I don't see the logic in "if many coins heist is a waste of time then they are all a waste of time". It is the only random skirmish that doesn't usually start or finish. I don't know how many times I waited to play something, got manycoins and it was a no go. I don't see the thread that started this conversation but she simply said please remove this one, and I so agree.
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plasticbatMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 12,405Arc User
Sorry I don't see the logic in "if many coins heist is a waste of time then they are all a waste of time". It is the only random skirmish that doesn't usually start or finish. I don't know how many times I waited to play something, got manycoins and it was a no go. I don't see the thread that started this conversation but she simply said please remove this one, and I so agree.
Do you understand why there is random queue (current method) instead of you selecting the dungeon of your choice (original method) to get the same amount of AD?
The whole point of RQ was to "force" people to help others to do unpopular dungeons. Removing "unpopular" dungeons from RQ means the whole concept of RQ fails. Hence, it should return to the original method.
By the way, Manycoins is not the only unpopular dungeons in Random Skirmish. I have other skirmish in which people quitted more than Manycoins (for me anyway).
*** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
Never had any issues with Merchant Prince, never seen a quit before. ToDG is nothing, if you mean ToNG it's a dungeon, not a skirmish if you mean CoDG it's a trial not a skirmish.
Apparently pointing-out the bleeding obvious is a 'personal attack'.
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plasticbatMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 12,405Arc User
Never had any issues with Merchant Prince, never seen a quit before. ToDG is nothing, if you mean ToNG it's a dungeon, not a skirmish if you mean CoDG it's a trial not a skirmish.
I mean ToDG. Both are nothing. Both are easy but people quit many times. For Merchant Prince, people quit before entered. Some quit when they were killed in the first phase. I believe there was a thread about that too. For ToDG, people quit because it took too long for them. Most quit before enter. Some entered and let it be killed and just stayed in the camp fire outside. They wanted to be kicked but they considered themselves doing us a favour for 'entering' so that we could start without waiting for the kick timer outside. Some just wanted to be kicked instead of leaving themselves in both Prince and ToDG.
All these experience are recent. I have refused to do RQ until recently when the newer version of battle pass 'requires' doing it in order to finish within its time limit. These remind me why I refused to do RQ. My last 4 Manycoins were 'smooth' in comparison though. The last Manycoins (yesterday) was almost 'prefect'. I know I was somehow lucky with Manycoins.
Post edited by plasticbat on
*** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
Never had any issues with Merchant Prince, never seen a quit before. ToDG is nothing, if you mean ToNG it's a dungeon, not a skirmish if you mean CoDG it's a trial not a skirmish.
ToDG = Throne of Dwarven Gods skirmish which is pretty easy to troll and also it has set timers on it, so its a minimum of 10 minutes to complete. And if you get someone trolling the HUlks its even more annoying.
The very problem of RQ is the mindset (driven by the design) that most of the players are tagging in with => the very individualistic "I want rAD, I want quick and easy rAD", and this is also augmented by the battlepass meter to unlock rewards.
With that mindset (which I can somewhat understand), for the RSQ anything longer than MoH/DL/eSoT, anything longer than 3-5 minutes (because of timegated phases, poor performing/knowledge party or inherent length) can be seen as a problem as it impairs your daily AD wage.
Personnally, i don't care waiting, failing, having an unecessary long run, etc, etc. I don't value my time on Neverwinter as time = AD.
And poor old Prophecy of Madness... where people don't quit but just can't be bothered to play it
That's because they never properly fixed it after the first time they broke it.
I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
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plasticbatMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 12,405Arc User
And poor old Prophecy of Madness... where people don't quit but just can't be bothered to play it
That's because they never properly fixed it after the first time they broke it.
There was no reason to play the first 2 phases (until the bug is fixed). It makes no difference to the outcome. It does not improve the reward. It does not end the phase faster. Reading a book or playing it is the same except playing it may mean you need to spend some health potions.
When I have this one, I will see what the majority wants to do. If they sit, I sit. If they play, I just walk around and hit something.
*** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
Never had any issues with Merchant Prince, never seen a quit before. ToDG is nothing, if you mean ToNG it's a dungeon, not a skirmish if you mean CoDG it's a trial not a skirmish.
ToDG = Throne of Dwarven Gods skirmish which is pretty easy to troll and also it has set timers on it, so its a minimum of 10 minutes to complete. And if you get someone trolling the HUlks its even more annoying.
Ah OK I've never seen it called that before. Thx.
Apparently pointing-out the bleeding obvious is a 'personal attack'.
And poor old Prophecy of Madness... where people don't quit but just can't be bothered to play it
That's because they never properly fixed it after the first time they broke it.
There was no reason to play the first 2 phases (until the bug is fixed). It makes no difference to the outcome. It does not improve the reward. It does not end the phase faster. Reading a book or playing it is the same except playing it may mean you need to spend some health potions.
When I have this one, I will see what the majority wants to do. If they sit, I sit. If they play, I just walk around and hit something.
Well I wonder about the reward. At the end of the skirmish you can get a ring, and I wonder if a gold finish will give you a chance of a better ring. (I'm thinking about a legendary ring for collections). These rings aren't in the chest any more, so I think the end of skirmish rewards is the only way to get one.
BTW, I did get a legendary ring from Svardborg yesterday from the trial reward (not from either chest), so it can happen, but I don't know if it is dependent on the result (gold, silver etc).
So I suggest that it may improve the reward... but only for the players who want that reward.
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plasticbatMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 12,405Arc User
And poor old Prophecy of Madness... where people don't quit but just can't be bothered to play it
That's because they never properly fixed it after the first time they broke it.
There was no reason to play the first 2 phases (until the bug is fixed). It makes no difference to the outcome. It does not improve the reward. It does not end the phase faster. Reading a book or playing it is the same except playing it may mean you need to spend some health potions.
When I have this one, I will see what the majority wants to do. If they sit, I sit. If they play, I just walk around and hit something.
Well I wonder about the reward. At the end of the skirmish you can get a ring, and I wonder if a gold finish will give you a chance of a better ring. (I'm thinking about a legendary ring for collections). These rings aren't in the chest any more, so I think the end of skirmish rewards is the only way to get one.
BTW, I did get a legendary ring from Svardborg yesterday from the trial reward (not from either chest), so it can happen, but I don't know if it is dependent on the result (gold, silver etc).
So I suggest that it may improve the reward... but only for the players who want that reward.
I believe the bug of Prophecy of Madness is it does not give gold victory.
*** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
Fortunately it no longer matters what you get as a result for those skirmishes or at least I used to get some decent stuff from bronze and silver when I used to open the chests back when the key was basically free via the campaign currency. Have not really bothered with those chests with the demogorgon trial update as I now prefer to use the keys there now that it costs AD to get.
Gold finish is guaranteed ring. Silver is chance at ring. Less than that is either no chance or maybe a tiny chance. Ring quality is random regardless.
"We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
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therealprotexMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 526Arc User
Sorry I don't see the logic in "if many coins heist is a waste of time then they are all a waste of time". It is the only random skirmish that doesn't usually start or finish. I don't know how many times I waited to play something, got manycoins and it was a no go. I don't see the thread that started this conversation but she simply said please remove this one, and I so agree.
Not quite the truth. Did you get PoM recently? It is the epitome of time wasting as the party waits the first two phases (each five minutes iirc) sitting right at the door for the third phase and the balor to appear. Ten minutes just doing nothing. Awful. RQs need to be removed.
Gold finish is guaranteed ring. Silver is chance at ring. Less than that is either no chance or maybe a tiny chance. Ring quality is random regardless.
OK, so that means if you want the rings then it's worth doing something and a silver finish is better than bronze.
I guess those waiting players don't want the rings then.
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plasticbatMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 12,405Arc User
Gold finish is guaranteed ring. Silver is chance at ring. Less than that is either no chance or maybe a tiny chance. Ring quality is random regardless.
OK, so that means if you want the rings then it's worth doing something and a silver finish is better than bronze.
I guess those waiting players don't want the rings then.
I would say almost nobody wants those ring regardless if one is waiting or not. They do not go to PoM by their own choice. They just go there (picked by the game) to get rAD.
*** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
It is thedesign flaw of the Random Queues in a nutshell. Using people seeking RAD to populate the groups of those who want to engage the content. There is no incentive for the first group to go the extra mile and get Gold in a skirmish, or work harder in a Dungeon. It's worse in dungeons where the completion time may be significantly longer that the leaver penalty. If you queue into Castle Ravenloft with a group you don't think will finish, you are better off leaving at the start - your penalty will be up before you would be out of the dungeon, even if you completed. The RQ may may make the queue time less for the manual queuer as intended, but it definitely does not give them a good experience.
"We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
Comments
So if Manycoins is waste of time, then all skirmishes need to be removed, cuz all them are waste of time..
But wait, what's about non epic dungeons?? Clock tower? Pirate King retreat? they also are more less waste of time, lets cut them all out of game too.
I also seen how players quit LoMM, cuz as per say word: it's waste of time.
So in short all non end contents are waste of time.. So what, should we cut out 80% of game content??
For such players only good content is Opening chests.
In CS'Go, some even made mobile app for such type players. A small game, which removed all other contents which can be considered as waste of time. It's called lootbox simulator. And whole game is just that, loot opening.
Now reason why this skirmish and other contents are in random q is rather simple.
In mod 12, chult campaig release, devs added Random q system, which purpose where to reuse old content. In short, you are paid to play old content.
Cuz otherwise no one would bother with them. I mean, how many times you q for Clock tower dungeon?? Or Lostmouth?
Master of hunt( skirmish).?
Now asking to remove x content cuz players think it's waste of time. Well that's mean 90% of game is waste of time. Cuz if this skirmish got removed, then without doubts there will be other in the list, whome players would wish to be removed.
Btw> like 12min ago I just cleared this skirmish with pugs..
Once I get in it, that's what you can see..
once AFK< other left instance and doing other activities. And not quiting group in order not get penalty.
“The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
Gustave Le Bon.
==================================================
Now, back to why RQ was introduced. RQ was introduced to 'force' player to HELP player to do hard or unpopular contents. The rAD you got from doing RQ is the 'fee' they pay you to HELP others. Yes, forcing player to do stuff is an unpopular decision. Many just want to get 'pay' and don't want to do the work.
So, removing the hard or unpopular content means the original RQ's purpose is lost. Hence, well, RQ should be removed and player go back to 'earn' rAD like what used to be before RQ. i.e. people chose whatever that they consider "not waste of time", "fun", or ... whatever subjective reason.
For the ball, in phase 2, the enemy keeps coming from 3 portals. To stop enemy, you need to kill the portals. To kill the portal, a fire ball will chain to a player randomly. That player needs to run to the portal (without being killed in the process) and the ball will be pull to the portal to destroy it. Phase 2 finished when 3 portals are destroyed.
Many player do not pay attention. They don't even notice they were chained and let the ball hit them. They don't watch how other players handle the ball.
In effect, as eToS (epic category) and cloak tower (normal category) were the most farmed (best rAD/time ratio, each one for different reasons), trying to get a randomized dungeon without a premade would get you, with less than 2 minutes of waiting, in one of those 75% of the time (with the occasionnal CN because of people trying to get the orcus wand), while if you were choosing specifically Karrundax or Grey Wolf Den for exemple, you could prepare yourself (especially as a dps) for 30 minutes of waiting (if not more) before it would trigger.
Personnally i'm even more radical than you @plasticbat => I think the matchmaking itself is an aberration in a MMORPG, and everything should be carefully chosen and run as a "premade" party : no matchmaking, no random queue.
meet people => talk to them=> play with them. No other order.
Picking random match making people was an option. You did not have to choose that option and there was no penalty (as you could earn the same amount of rAD). I even had the option to go in alone to earn the same amount of rAD (if I could finish it alone).
For Karrundax or Grey Wolf Den, there was no waiting because I would just go in alone or with whatever number of people that were ready to come with. Were these for a party of 3 back then?
On the other hand, obviously, this did not help new player because nobody would care to do the "waste of time" dungeons. That was the reason Cryptic created RQ "hoping" that could give incentive for people to help. However, instead of adding real incentive, they just "moved" the rAD from what used to be to RQ. That basically was forcing most players to do RQ.
The whole point of RQ was to "force" people to help others to do unpopular dungeons. Removing "unpopular" dungeons from RQ means the whole concept of RQ fails. Hence, it should return to the original method.
By the way, Manycoins is not the only unpopular dungeons in Random Skirmish. I have other skirmish in which people quitted more than Manycoins (for me anyway).
For Merchant Prince, people quit before entered. Some quit when they were killed in the first phase. I believe there was a thread about that too.
For ToDG, people quit because it took too long for them. Most quit before enter. Some entered and let it be killed and just stayed in the camp fire outside. They wanted to be kicked but they considered themselves doing us a favour for 'entering' so that we could start without waiting for the kick timer outside.
Some just wanted to be kicked instead of leaving themselves in both Prince and ToDG.
All these experience are recent. I have refused to do RQ until recently when the newer version of battle pass 'requires' doing it in order to finish within its time limit. These remind me why I refused to do RQ. My last 4 Manycoins were 'smooth' in comparison though. The last Manycoins (yesterday) was almost 'prefect'. I know I was somehow lucky with Manycoins.
With that mindset (which I can somewhat understand), for the RSQ anything longer than MoH/DL/eSoT, anything longer than 3-5 minutes (because of timegated phases, poor performing/knowledge party or inherent length) can be seen as a problem as it impairs your daily AD wage.
Personnally, i don't care waiting, failing, having an unecessary long run, etc, etc. I don't value my time on Neverwinter as time = AD.
When I have this one, I will see what the majority wants to do. If they sit, I sit. If they play, I just walk around and hit something.
BTW, I did get a legendary ring from Svardborg yesterday from the trial reward (not from either chest), so it can happen, but I don't know if it is dependent on the result (gold, silver etc).
So I suggest that it may improve the reward... but only for the players who want that reward.
I guess those waiting players don't want the rings then.
They do not go to PoM by their own choice. They just go there (picked by the game) to get rAD.