Player Item Level Thresholds are TOO low for Adult and Ancient Dragons

grogthemagnif

Young Dragon 18,000 IL 20 million hp 1 Player (20MM/player)

Adult Dragon 20,000 IL 80 million hp (3 players 27MM/player)

Ancient Dragon 22,000 IL 180 million hp (5 players 36MM/player)

Does anyone see a problem here?? Anyone???

Proposed change Adult Dragon 38,000 IL (about twice the IL for 4 times the hp) also, higher damage by players and speeded up play.

Proposed change Ancient Dragon 58,000 IL (about 50% more IL than Adult for twice the hp) also, higher damage by players and speeded up play.

Now the last nail in the coffin Tiamat (5 heads) probably 800 million hp (160 million/head) [also 10 players needed for Epic Trial] set at 70,000 IL

(Roughly 3.5 times the hp for about 4.5 times the IL) (10 players 80MM/player)

Tell me how you are going to get to 70k IL from 24k- 52k IL.

arazith07

You are forgetting that players are scaled up, meaning a 22k iL player will be doing about 2.5 times their normal damage. So that player would only need to do 14.4M dummy damage to do 36M Ancient dragon damage. There is also no DPS check at all, players just need to be able to learn how to play the game to minimize damage taken and they will succeed. If you don't want to group with lower item levels, you can always form groups with that requirement. Otherwise all you are doing is gating content that can already be completed by those item levels.

grogthemagnif

arazith07 said:

You are forgetting that players are scaled up, meaning a 22k iL player will be doing about 2.5 times their normal damage. So that player would only need to do 14.4M dummy damage to do 36M Ancient dragon damage. There is also no DPS check at all, players just need to be able to learn how to play the game to minimize damage taken and they will succeed. If you don't want to group with lower item levels, you can always form groups with that requirement. Otherwise all you are doing is gating content that can already be completed by those item levels.

Your math is off, rerun the numbers. Good players can do 50M damage on an Ancient.

plasticbat

-- never mind ---

arazith07

grogthemagnif said:

arazith07 said:

You are forgetting that players are scaled up, meaning a 22k iL player will be doing about 2.5 times their normal damage. So that player would only need to do 14.4M dummy damage to do 36M Ancient dragon damage. There is also no DPS check at all, players just need to be able to learn how to play the game to minimize damage taken and they will succeed. If you don't want to group with lower item levels, you can always form groups with that requirement. Otherwise all you are doing is gating content that can already be completed by those item levels.

Your math is off, rerun the numbers. Good players can do 50M damage on an Ancient.

All I did was take a number you supplied, 36M/player on Ancient. Again, there is no DPS check for dragons, all players need to do is learn how to avoid damage, hold aggro (tank), and heal (healer).

rikitaki

Sincerely, I am lost at what the OP is even trying to achieve. (if we step away from the fact that it does not count in the fact those dragons are all scaled content)

Equal completion time for everything? Equal difficulty? I do get the notion it calls for making something equal, but have no idea what and why it should be considered a good idea.

hadestemplar

rikitaki said:

Sincerely, I am lost at what the OP is even trying to achieve. (if we step away from the fact that it does not count in the fact those dragons are all scaled content)

Equal completion time for everything? Equal difficulty? I do get the notion it calls for making something equal, but have no idea what and why it should be considered a good idea.

It's have nothing to do with equality. The whole thing behind is about exclusivity and easy gameplay.

What the thread creator suggest is to make easier for well geared players kill ancient dragon, and make sure they would not have some palyers who don't have lesser gear.
Though thread creator forgot one thing, that Item level do not represent players knowelage about hunts mechanics and also do not indicate if player with high IL actually know how play this game in first place..

Exclusivity, this part is most common reason when comes complains pugs and IL's.

What thread creator want is make hunts easier for him, and in same time deny access to gear for other players, the gear which can be obtained only by hunting ancient dragon.

In short this whole suggestion about increasing IL requirements for dragon hunts is due selfishness. Nothing more.

orangenee

There's good item level and there's bad item level.

Most newer players will be rocking Wilds gear (bad for stuff like this), and maybe a little bolster.

Yet another, with better procs on their gear will have good IL, maybe even the same or less item level as the above player.

I'm about 50k with juma/avernus tier gear, yet there's other players alts that can beat my booty with the same item level. There is no skill in this game, so that's not why. It's he has higher end gear than me.

Want some evidence? There's a video Aragon made where he took on a young then an adult, he was 22k IL with most of his gear slots empty. He was chunking the young dragon's health and done in 4 minutes. Still takes me 7 at 50k, mind you I'm a warlock so I have to move quite a lot.

Item level is nothing, gear and stats are everything. Not standing in red helps too.

grogthemagnif

I guess nobody wants to answer - How do you rank up to 70k IL to do Tiamat?

plasticbat

grogthemagnif said:

I guess nobody wants to answer - How do you rank up to 70k IL to do Tiamat?

If you mean how to make a item level 70K character by spending a lot to buy almost everything (and properly useless in Ancient Hunt and Tiamat):

EDIT: there was a critical mistake in reinforcement.

A nude level 20 character: 10000
100% companion bolster: 3000
100% mount bolster: 6000
companion power (750x6) = 4500
15 Mythic insignia (500 x 15) = 7500
Max SH boon (1000 x 3) = 3000
rank 5 enchantment (1500 x 9) = 13500
combat enchantment: 5000
artifact (1200 x 4) = 4800
reinforcement (800 x 8) = 6400
Major reinforcement +1 (44 x 8) = 352
head,armor, arm, boot, shirt, pant (1600 x 6) = 9600
waist, neck (1500 x 2) = 3000
cheap weapon from AH (1700 x 2) = 3400
Rings (1400 x 2) = 2800
companion enchantment: 1500
companion equipment (1100 x 3) = 3300
collar (600 x 5) = 3000


Total: 90300
Total: 84252

grogthemagnif

plasticbat said:

grogthemagnif said:

I guess nobody wants to answer - How do you rank up to 70k IL to do Tiamat?

If you mean how to make a item level 70K character by spending a lot to buy almost everything (and properly useless in Ancient Hunt and Tiamat):

A nude level 20 character: 10000
100% companion bolster: 3000
100% mount bolster: 6000
companion power (750x6) = 4500
15 Mythic insignia (500 x 15) = 7500
Max SH boon (1000 x 3) = 3000
rank 5 enchantment (1500 x 9) = 13500
combat enchantment: 5000
artifact (1200 x 4) = 4800
reinforcement (800 x 8) = 6400
head,armor, arm, boot, shirt, pant (1600 x 6) = 9600
waist, neck (1500 x 2) = 3000
cheap weapon from AH (1700 x 2) = 3400
Rings (1400 x 2) = 2800
companion enchantment: 1500
companion equipment (1100 x 3) = 3300
collar (600 x 5) = 3000


Total: 90300

Good Answer.

themoore

hadestemplar#9918 said:

rikitaki said:

Sincerely, I am lost at what the OP is even trying to achieve. (if we step away from the fact that it does not count in the fact those dragons are all scaled content)

Equal completion time for everything? Equal difficulty? I do get the notion it calls for making something equal, but have no idea what and why it should be considered a good idea.

It's have nothing to do with equality. The whole thing behind is about exclusivity and easy gameplay.

What the thread creator suggest is to make easier for well geared players kill ancient dragon, and make sure they would not have some palyers who don't have lesser gear.
Though thread creator forgot one thing, that Item level do not represent players knowelage about hunts mechanics and also do not indicate if player with high IL actually know how play this game in first place..

Exclusivity, this part is most common reason when comes complains pugs and IL's.

What thread creator want is make hunts easier for him, and in same time deny access to gear for other players, the gear which can be obtained only by hunting ancient dragon.

In short this whole suggestion about increasing IL requirements for dragon hunts is due selfishness. Nothing more.

It is more new players now are simply skipping all the content. He was not being selfish, it is actually a problem, it is kinda weird how a new content that should be closer for end game , instead is open at low level with no experience , not even knowng the game they can start the hunts.

Finishing at lvl 20 and buying a little gear they reach easaly 26k item lvl, yes they are scaled but they have no companion bolster so even worse on stats, have no mount bolster so that does not help much, no insignias, no enchantments, no weapons not even a little decent. They did not progress in the campaigns or anything... they just jump straight to the hunts. this means changing the sense of the game, no story nothing to follow and then being poor in dragon hunts, dying all the time saying i have the item lvl so i am good when they are not for many many reasons.

Unfortunally what some do not realize that this is a grinding game you grind and follow steps...... well not anymore, now we just skip to the dragon hunts.

So as i was saying I don't think he said that because he is selfish but because everyone should get there at the correct time, learning the many rules of the game, doing the work, ... people still don't know many old mechanics like the one of the top important things: standing in the red IS BAD

hadestemplar

themoore said:

It is more new players now are simply skipping all the content. He was not being selfish, it is actually a problem, it is kinda weird how a new content that should be closer for end game , instead is open at low level with no experience , not even knowng the game they can start the hunts.

Finishing at lvl 20 and buying a little gear they reach easaly 26k item lvl, yes they are scaled but they have no companion bolster so even worse on stats, have no mount bolster so that does not help much, no insignias, no enchantments, no weapons not even a little decent. They did not progress in the campaigns or anything... they just jump straight to the hunts. this means changing the sense of the game, no story nothing to follow and then being poor in dragon hunts, dying all the time saying i have the item lvl so i am good when they are not for many many reasons.

Unfortunally what some do not realize that this is a grinding game you grind and follow steps...... well not anymore, now we just skip to the dragon hunts.

So as i was saying I don't think he said that because he is selfish but because everyone should get there at the correct time, learning the many rules of the game, doing the work, ... people still don't know many old mechanics like the one of the top important things: standing in the red IS BAD

The all Theme Park RPG games have same problem. The playerbase always focus on latest two expansions realated content. The reast of game content is kind of optional, you visit them for trasmutes, maybe due nostalgia, maybe for acheavements. Nothing more.

Cuz latest content provide better gear, better or same incomes. That's why when new expansion get released, 80% of playerbase focus on latest content. Lets not forge that players after keep doing same old stuffs, they got bored and want to do something new.


Now should new players grind older content? There is no point to do so.
I mean, how relevant relevant are SKT campaing realated items? Dread ring? Undermountain? Vallenha?

Would you grind Avernus hunts, to try get T3 lure, so you could latter hope to find someone help you kill that T3 creature, and then pray for RNG godess that it will give you Ribcage armour, which is still outdated?
Or you simply get in party, who kills ancient dragon 100 times, and get armour which is upgraded versions of Ribcage? No RNG, you just claim from store.

Also even if you don't take Ancient dragon gear, the ones from Adult dragon hunts are far superior to what you can get in other areas. Once you get them, it will be easier to clear older content.

Other thing is that, once majority of playerbase get their desired gear parts from Dragon_slayer campaign store. Whance chances are that they will keep doing them?

Answer is that, majority of players will focus on other content, maybe even step away from game till new expnasion got release.
That's what happened with Chult/omu hunts, same where with Barovia, same where with Avernus.

Avernus T3 hunts where more active cuz there where Chance to get Ribcage not 100% assurance. But now, updated version is in Dragon_slayer capaing store. The need to do t3 hunt in Avernus become nearly pointless. So imagine new player, get t3 lure, and no one want to help you. Some even went as far as inspect you and say, nah not gona waste time cuz you don't have BoA or your IL too low.

Same can be said about when one guy in PE try make party for IC, to farm regent for Lion Gloves. In zone chat everyone rush to make fun of him, that he is clueless and should not waste time for outdated gear and etc.

Now try get in VoS, to get better rings, again, you don't have x gear, and someone kindly ask you to leave party.


This create cycle, you don't have certain gear part or certain IL, there for no one want your presence in party. Since you can't get in party, you will not get better gear, and it's repeat again, you don't have latest gear, you are not welcome.

Some even went like, you have outdated gear, not gona waste time with you> vote kick. Or simply players walk away from group.


About week ago I q to ancient dragon hunt in pub q. I got removed from group cuz I don't have ring Band of Air.
So if we don't like players with low IL, why don't we also start blocking all those who don't have BoA? Or don't have mythic gear? ( sorry for sarcasm)


And now most important part.. This is not Random dungeon/trial q, you can do these dragon hunts in private q.
Each time I went to PE, I can see chat full of players making groups. Not mentioned guilds/allainces, custom chats also making such dragon hunts in private q.

So whats the problem here?

Don't want do dragon hunts with low IL players or ones who don't have Band of air? Simply do dragon hunts with private q with friends/guild/alliance members.