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Paladin needs a buff



  • rjc9000rjc9000 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,405 Arc User

    Fighter has lost Bladed rampart and it was given to pally.

    I don't see Bladed Rampart on the Paladin's daily list.

    Pally has the best daily out of all tanks.

    I'd say Paladin tank is actually the most gimped in terms of dailies, with the exception of damage dailies.

    Every tank class gets a generic "recover (x)% of your HP and increase your maximum HP by (x)%" panic button daily: Battle High for Barbarians, Second Wind for Fighters, and Heroism for Paladin, but the Paladin's is the worst.

    Battle High confers the biggest HP and recovery increase of all the tanks, at 35%.

    Second Wind not only raises your max HP by 20%, recovers 20% of your (pre-buffed) max HP, but also recovers ~20% of the damage you deal. Combine this with some reflect damage (Manticore Mane Ring/Helmet, Everfrost Shirt/Pants, etc) and you can get some pretty nice self sustain for the daily's brief duration.

    Heroism's is stuck at 20% HP recovered/raised, but has the "unique benefit" of a 10% damage buff ... which barely helps you hold aggro.

    Before Mod 20's stat changes, every tank also had a bigger panic button that made you nearly unkillable but imposes a 3 min cooldown on the daily, useful for situations like enraged Haruman/Olanthius or the infamous quickling swarm bug during the early days of VoS HC boss 3.

    Fighters got/still have Perfect Block.

    The Barbarians' Undying Instincts is even better, to the point where you are literally too angry to die from attack damage, allowing you to do stupider things like survive 15+ stacks of Halaster Anihilation or taking Zariel's Judgement to the face.

    Paladin's Shield of the Gods once had this option, but lost this option for the generic 30% Awareness + Defense stat daily.

    Speaking of which, the Paladin's generic 30% Awareness daily is the worst of the three tanks.

    The Barbarian's Primal Instincts does not grant Defense, but instead gains the bigger benefit of capping your Critical Avoid. Since Barbarians can reasonably spam a daily once every 15 seconds and get Awareness as a Forte, you can skip actively building for Awareness or Critical Avoid and throw your stats into Deflect/Deflect Sev, or just build offensively. Not having Defense on Primal Instincts isn't a problem when tank Fortes passively give you ~70% for putting on gear, so you can just invest a little bit in gear and get nearly capped Defense, all the time.

    Both the Fighter and Paladin need you to take a feat to get your 30% Awareness daily, but the Paladin's version denies you a useful team protection tool in Divine Protector (arguably two tools, if you count the change of the old Shield of the Gods to this new version), while the Fighter's just improves an existing tool.

    Divine Protector as a power is far more annoying to activate compared to Primal Instincts or Bladed Rampart, as attempting to cancel the long animation can lead to you losing your Action Points but not gaining the effects of the daily.

    In the terms of protection daily attacks, Paladin is worse than Fighter tank but better than Barbarian tank ... though I'm not sure you can count Barbarians when they have practically 0 team protection skills.

    The Fighter's Phalanx blocks more damage (20%) compared to Shield of Faith's 5%.
    And unfeated Divine Protector, while a useful tool, is still a worse version of the Fighter's Knight's Valor: doesn't absorb aggro and is tied to a daily (depriving you of a panic button) rather than an encounter power.

    The only daily attacks where the Paladin holds the advantage is in damaging daily attacks.

    Fighter gets what is simply a joke for options when it comes to AoE aggro, linebreaker that is 160 magnitude

    Fighter tank being bad at AoE aggro isn't a real weakness when mobs die nearly instantly and most of the game's difficulty comes from boss fights.

    Also, as Fighter Manguard, you have the best selection of tools to help you with your AoE aggro.

    You also have other options for AoE aggro besides Linebreaker, such as Retaliate (10 second cooldown, AoE, high base damage, aggro multiplier...), Cleaving Bull, and Enforced Threat.

    If your DPS are dying due to taking mob hits, you can tell your DPS to not charge ahead of you and *let you establish aggro*. If they don't get the message, aggressively jump on their corpse and insinuate that wannabe tanks that run ahead are likely to die.
    You can also purposely Knight's Valor ranged attackers like SWs or any ranged DPS with the Music Box, so when they begin attacking, their aggro instantly transfers to you.

    if your healer is drawing passive mob aggro from heal over time effects, use Knight's Valor on them to take their aggro.

    Fighter's Dig-in, our tab, can rarely be used in things like RC due to the stupidity of the new "kiting" type of tanking we're forced into.

    You can move around while squatting, just jump and press the squat button between every movement you want to make.

  • sagakaiyume#0847 sagakaiyume Member Posts: 402 Arc User
    Paladin's daily isn't 30% defense, its 30% damage reduction, which is what bladed rampart was. Bladed rampart was changed to 30% def/awareness. It has a ~33% uptime on my pally with only 14% ap gain, taking under 20 seconds to build daily.

    Second wind is 20% hp, which is pathetic in comparison. The hp regen from it is useless unless you build yourself for a lot higher damage or use as suggested manticore mane, doesn't change the fact that its still worse than 30% damage reduction. Bladed rampart gives 30% def and awareness, which you cap pretty easily, even without VoS gear.

    Did not know about the jump + tab thing, as I'm sure like most stuff, its not intended so you wouldn't usually come across it naturally.

    Templar's wrath is best AoE aggro there is, its a huge aoe around you that needs nothing else to help it, so calling Vanguard's best just isn't true. Enforced requires prep, Knight's valor not allowing who to pick for aggro, cleaving bull having an awkward and slow animation on cleave.

    Suggestions while nice, are work-arounds for issues on vanguard.
  • sagakaiyume#0847 sagakaiyume Member Posts: 402 Arc User
    edited October 2021
    Also, pally has an on-demand damage reduction to party that, at the cost of divinity, totaling 15% damage reduction. Pally's party daily for protection also allows them to still guard, phalanx does not allow Vanguard to guard/tab. The pally can be running in a circle and throw their daily out for the party. For this, there is a give and take. Suggestions for barb to give 25-35% hp buff daily to party was thrown out there many times, but completely ignored.
  • link#8009 link Member Posts: 8 Arc User
    paladin's damage reduction requires 2 things stamina and divinity, divinity is also most paladins way of establishing aggro i main pallly tank on pc an a vanguard on console i don't have trouble holding aggro on ether whether it's aoe or st on my pally for aoe i don't even use templars wrath the big difference is when i get reapers fbi my pally need to use tab+shift to trigger divine palisade which gives the 10% dmg reduction during when hati does that avalanche thing you don't have stamina to shield your party fighter phalanx daily is 20% and can be used any time imo the biggest advantage my fighter has is the 10% crit avoid and 15% awareness and knock back immunity i get from R1 and you can use this even if you have no stamina as for bladed rampart i don't use it my awareness is capped at 90% with dig in pally has 10% crit avoidance but only if divinity is full. if they need to make changes they need to start with sentinel
  • luffyhaki123luffyhaki123 Member Posts: 68 Arc User
    edited January 2022
    please fix and buff up the pally healer , im 56k pally healer and I still have a very very hard time healing, I have over 90% power , almost 90% out going healing , 88% crit chance , 80% cri serv , our shield's need to be buff way more or our healing needs to be buffed way more, no one plays a pally healer for a reason

    our healing skills need a major buff, so does the shields , they don't last long enough since our healing is trash. pally healer needs a major buff. this class is pretty much bad and a dead class when it comes to healing.
  • xaltius#7326 xaltius Member Posts: 26 Arc User
    Fighter: 1 retaliate=aggro for the next 20 years, everyone is green

    Paladin: 4 templar's + daily + sacred weapon = all hdps are still yellow

    Fighter: Tab: 15% awareness 10% critical avoidance 60% dmg reduction (can use it without stamina)

    Paladin: Tab: can not be used without divinity, no extra stats, reduced crit avoidance the lower your divinity, 60% dmg reduction, up to 70% if using palisade. Also drains divinity.

    Fighter: combat balance=free dmg reduction when not blocking.

    Paladin: what is dmg reduction?

    Fighter: Determination or Sharpened senses. You either become immortal for 10 seconds or almost immortal for 10 seconds.

    Paladin: Divine judgement for aggro on bosses with manticore's mane, Divine protector for the 5th ball from halaster. And yes they are both very strong dailies. That dmg reduction is huge.

    Fighter; Forte: defense, critical avoidance, accuracy. So survivability and less threat loss on deflected hits

    Paladin: Forte: defense, critical chance, deflect severity. So nothing for aggro (crit tanks dont work anymore), chance for dmg reduction (needs at least 80% + deflect chance in combat to be effective)

    Here is the thing. With all the free stats the fighter gets, they have a much easier time to get all other stats up to almost cap. Deflect severity can easily get to 45% and Ring of darkness adds a tremendous boost indirectly.

    Now you can all argue all you want, but it does not change the fact that pallies need a buff, or rework. It doesnt have to be something huge, but slight modifications to divinity costs and forte would be very useful, to bring them up to par. Make them feel more like tanks, instead of target dummies for bosses.

    Anyway, tanks generally do not receive any love in this game. That is reserved for the dps. Cross fingers and hope we get better gear and stuff in 2024.

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