Issues with Tanks in PVP

nagasablade

One of the biggest problems with PVP is the fact that PVP is one sided. DPS are tankier than tanks and they put out a lot of damage and tanks can not defend themselves nor kill anybody because they are too weak. For anybody who played DnD know that tanks especially Paladins should be a lot stronger than what they are in this game. And you want to know no tanks play PVP. Tanks are so weak, they can barely finish their solo daily quest.

treentbail21

While I agree with you if they become to powerful they will also be over powered because at any time they can just spec offensively and use defensive cooldowns to be tanky. Imagine a fully offensive barb with unstoppable on the tank path. Getting 40% block everytime they popped unstoppable with great damage.

nagasablade

There are several class that are super tanky and do a lot of damage. For example, HRs and Guardian Fighter. Guardian Fighters can get their daily back by holding up their shield. That's how they get so many kills in PvP. I believe if HRs and Guardian Fighter can be tanky, other class such as the Paladin should be tanky as well.

treentbail21

The reason fighters and hrs do so much damage is because of the broken interaction between accuracy and deflect severity.

Since they have accuracy as their forte and pop watermelon sorbet... It makes them DO MORE DAMAGE when you deflect their attack which us really stupid.

But yes Gfs get way too much so gain from taking hits on their shield its far too good.

trgluestickz

nagasablade#3988 said:

There are several class that are super tanky and do a lot of damage. For example, HRs and Guardian Fighter. Guardian Fighters can get their daily back by holding up their shield. That's how they get so many kills in PvP. I believe if HRs and Guardian Fighter can be tanky, other class such as the Paladin should be tanky as well.

Paladin is one of the tankyest classes in PVP when its built right and specced as a healer. Granted this class is easily the worst class in PVP, its the least useful and needs to be played nearly perfectly to have much impact.

Ranger isn't "tanky" exactly, its got better survivability than rogue does but its still squishy. Rangers don't get focused as much by most players because rangers can do really high damage near constantly and have a lot of annoying interrupts, they effectively have 2 back to back rotations with a roughly 5 second gap afterwards, and their at wills hurt. They essentially intimidate players into not targeting them and make them panic.

Tanks are something that is historically bad for PVP's health to make strong, I'm not sure what the solution to this issue would be though.

Everytime the devs swing the balance pendulum in favor of tanks or lower average player dps significantly, we end up with tons of players for all classes who run low skill bruiser builds and classes who get best of everything and become op, a good example right now of this is fighter.

Tanky eras and low average player skill often result in there being too many of these builds in the que at a time and cause more boring stalemate matches where the bruisers don't have enough dps to kill eachother or to do focus clearing properly. This also puts a lot of unnecessary strain on the minority of players who build more into dps, they end up having to try to do all the killing on their own, its not supposed to be a one person job.

We also see similar issues with too many healers being present in the que.

Shadowclad nerf reduced the severity of those above issues I mentioned, but we still seeing this issue some.

fuxion

nagasablade#3988 said:

There are several class that are super tanky and do a lot of damage. For example, HRs and Guardian Fighter. Guardian Fighters can get their daily back by holding up their shield. That's how they get so many kills in PvP. I believe if HRs and Guardian Fighter can be tanky, other class such as the Paladin should be tanky as well.

This is incorrect -Fighter shield is basically useless in pvp atm - Everyone is complaining about it , one strike from an encounter and all of the Fighter stamina (Shield is depleted) and thus leaving them vulnerable and that is why you dont see many Fighters on the leaderboard right now

fuxion

treentbail21#9864 said:

The reason fighters and hrs do so much damage is because of the broken interaction between accuracy and deflect severity.

Since they have accuracy as their forte and pop watermelon sorbet... It makes them DO MORE DAMAGE when you deflect their attack which us really stupid.

But yes Gfs get way too much so gain from taking hits on their shield its far too good.

You have obviously not PVPéd lately ..Fighter has basically no shield in PVP .. a veteran player who came back to the game recently was outraged by this fact

you can have a look at video here:

(www.twitch.tv/videos/1003795274)

or go to Twitch TV and search for MiniMi007 streamvideo on 28 April 2021

modlesie

fuxion#7775 said:

nagasablade#3988 said:

There are several class that are super tanky and do a lot of damage. For example, HRs and Guardian Fighter. Guardian Fighters can get their daily back by holding up their shield. That's how they get so many kills in PvP. I believe if HRs and Guardian Fighter can be tanky, other class such as the Paladin should be tanky as well.

This is incorrect -Fighter shield is basically useless in pvp atm - Everyone is complaining about it , one strike from an encounter and all of the Fighter stamina (Shield is depleted) and thus leaving them vulnerable and that is why you dont see many Fighters on the leaderboard right now

Fighter has The best chain prone combo and burst damage which melt every calss in one rotation- GF is ridiculously Overpowered, You want more? He is complaining about shield but hitting like 200/300k from encounters/daily- that means half of HP of most endgame players have.

fuxion

modlesie said:

fuxion#7775 said:

nagasablade#3988 said:

There are several class that are super tanky and do a lot of damage. For example, HRs and Guardian Fighter. Guardian Fighters can get their daily back by holding up their shield. That's how they get so many kills in PvP. I believe if HRs and Guardian Fighter can be tanky, other class such as the Paladin should be tanky as well.

This is incorrect -Fighter shield is basically useless in pvp atm - Everyone is complaining about it , one strike from an encounter and all of the Fighter stamina (Shield is depleted) and thus leaving them vulnerable and that is why you dont see many Fighters on the leaderboard right now

Fighter has The best chain prone combo and burst damage which melt every calss in one rotation- GF is ridiculously Overpowered, You want more? He is complaining about shield but hitting like 200/300k from encounters/daily- that means half of HP of most endgame players have.

My comment was not about damage -My comment was about the fighter shield

at least you can see the fighter when he hits you lol , Rogues have 1million HP combo which with hatefull knifes daily etc - the thing is you cant defend it or even see them coming as the do this from stealth ....

many things like this tht cannot be justified or explained away

modlesie

fuxion#7775 said:

modlesie said:

fuxion#7775 said:

nagasablade#3988 said:

There are several class that are super tanky and do a lot of damage. For example, HRs and Guardian Fighter. Guardian Fighters can get their daily back by holding up their shield. That's how they get so many kills in PvP. I believe if HRs and Guardian Fighter can be tanky, other class such as the Paladin should be tanky as well.

This is incorrect -Fighter shield is basically useless in pvp atm - Everyone is complaining about it , one strike from an encounter and all of the Fighter stamina (Shield is depleted) and thus leaving them vulnerable and that is why you dont see many Fighters on the leaderboard right now

Fighter has The best chain prone combo and burst damage which melt every calss in one rotation- GF is ridiculously Overpowered, You want more? He is complaining about shield but hitting like 200/300k from encounters/daily- that means half of HP of most endgame players have.

My comment was not about damage -My comment was about the fighter shield

at least you can see the fighter when he hits you lol , Rogues have 1million HP combo which with hatefull knifes daily etc - the thing is you cant defend it or even see them coming as the do this from stealth ....

many things like this tht cannot be justified or explained away

Yea ofcourse TR should be nerfed with his daily, sam as Warlock.

I am ok with Giving GF more shield- but take from him at least 30% of his damage because this is just crazy.

fuxion

Look at the PVP leaderboard and first 5 pages ....not many Fighters there cause they might be strong 1v1 if played correctly buit normally 1 mistake and Fighter is dead

Fighter does not need a nerf.

trgluestickz

fuxion#7775 said:

Look at the PVP leaderboard and first 5 pages ....not many Fighters there cause they might be strong 1v1 if played correctly buit normally 1 mistake and Fighter is dead

Fighter does not need a nerf.

Its definitely not a high skill class to play fighter. Just takes a nicer build and higher minimum skill than some of other classes to get it to an effective point. Once it is past that point, its stronger than anything else, even players who play much better than the fighter. It retains its strength even in higher player skill conditions too.

The fighters who made it to page 1 with abnormally good K/Ds and win rates on PC and Xbox are far from being best of the best players and far from being mistakeless.

trgluestickz

fuxion#7775 said:

treentbail21#9864 said:

The reason fighters and hrs do so much damage is because of the broken interaction between accuracy and deflect severity.

Since they have accuracy as their forte and pop watermelon sorbet... It makes them DO MORE DAMAGE when you deflect their attack which us really stupid.

But yes Gfs get way too much so gain from taking hits on their shield its far too good.

You have obviously not PVPéd lately ..Fighter has basically no shield in PVP .. a veteran player who came back to the game recently was outraged by this fact

you can have a look at video here:

(www.twitch.tv/videos/1003795274)

or go to Twitch TV and search for MiniMi007 streamvideo on 28 April 2021

The truth here is that Robb and Minimi haven't adapted to how to play fighter in mod 20. They are used to a different playstyle but that doesn't make fighter not OP, though it isn't fighter shield that is causing fighter to be OP. If their playstyle can be brought back without making the class stronger, then I am in favor of it, if not, it should be opposed.

trgluestickz

modlesie said:

fuxion#7775 said:

modlesie said:

fuxion#7775 said:

nagasablade#3988 said:

There are several class that are super tanky and do a lot of damage. For example, HRs and Guardian Fighter. Guardian Fighters can get their daily back by holding up their shield. That's how they get so many kills in PvP. I believe if HRs and Guardian Fighter can be tanky, other class such as the Paladin should be tanky as well.

This is incorrect -Fighter shield is basically useless in pvp atm - Everyone is complaining about it , one strike from an encounter and all of the Fighter stamina (Shield is depleted) and thus leaving them vulnerable and that is why you dont see many Fighters on the leaderboard right now

Fighter has The best chain prone combo and burst damage which melt every calss in one rotation- GF is ridiculously Overpowered, You want more? He is complaining about shield but hitting like 200/300k from encounters/daily- that means half of HP of most endgame players have.

My comment was not about damage -My comment was about the fighter shield

at least you can see the fighter when he hits you lol , Rogues have 1million HP combo which with hatefull knifes daily etc - the thing is you cant defend it or even see them coming as the do this from stealth ....

many things like this tht cannot be justified or explained away

Yea ofcourse TR should be nerfed with his daily, sam as Warlock.

I am ok with Giving GF more shield- but take from him at least 30% of his damage because this is just crazy.

If you want rogue switched to something more similar to how high sustain/consistent dps classes do damage, then that would probably be more engaging to play and easier to compete with. It also would allow devs to reduce rogue daily power damage a lot, though will mention, rogue daily damage is already significantly lower than it is for warlock's brood of hadar.

A hypothetical example of how to do this would be removing stealth loss upon taking damage, shortening WK's stealth gage a little bit, and increasing rogue at will dps. In exchange for a little bit lower encounter damage and significantly less daily damage for example.

Other option is devs increase player damage by a lot again so burst damage with a long wait becomes competitive at a similar skill req to the good sustain classes. Another super high player dps meta would get more hate than giving rogue the ability to keep hitting with something strong inbetween rotations, because many people don't like being one shot or one-rotated.

Player dps in general is a bit on the low side right now, several classes are reliant on 3k mounts to make up the difference. Self healing being strong and super strong healers are one of the obstacles to getting rid of one shot mechanics, or in current case, one rotate mechanics.

modlesie

trgluestickz said:

fuxion#7775 said:

treentbail21#9864 said:

The reason fighters and hrs do so much damage is because of the broken interaction between accuracy and deflect severity.

Since they have accuracy as their forte and pop watermelon sorbet... It makes them DO MORE DAMAGE when you deflect their attack which us really stupid.

But yes Gfs get way too much so gain from taking hits on their shield its far too good.

You have obviously not PVPéd lately ..Fighter has basically no shield in PVP .. a veteran player who came back to the game recently was outraged by this fact

you can have a look at video here:

(www.twitch.tv/videos/1003795274)

or go to Twitch TV and search for MiniMi007 streamvideo on 28 April 2021

The truth here is that Robb and Minimi haven't adapted to how to play fighter in mod 20. They are used to a different playstyle but that doesn't make fighter not OP, though it isn't fighter shield that is causing fighter to be OP. If their playstyle can be brought back without making the class stronger, then I am in favor of it, if not, it should be opposed.

+1 to this- they came back to game and trying to go Turtle mode as it was in previous modules and it is just not possible for now. I know if they change their builds and set their eq/builds- they will be top1 page characters.

treentbail21

> @modlesie said:
> +1 to this- they came back to game and trying to go Turtle mode as it was in previous modules and it is just not possible for now. I know if they change their builds and set their eq/builds- they will be top1 page characters.

Yup the only reason they aren't tanky is because they dont have enough defensive stats and still think they can hide behind an infinite shield and two shot people.

If they only respected their character.. I had to do that on my barbarian lol. Now I'm an 800k hp and 50k defense barbarian. Its alot better to play.

fuxion

At the end of the day any class can kill any class right now if they have correct build gear and rotation and each class serves a purpose ... classes are more balanced than ever ... i play most of them in pvp , and again there is no indication other than the accuracy bug and overpowered mount powers that need serious attention

In terms of classes only:
i would give Paladins & Clerics a viable dps path

If you want to start nerfing classes there are many things that would have to accompany those nerfs..

The last season leaderboard shows that a ranged class is doing best overall right now .. so if u really need to nerf a class its control wizard but i will not promote that or support a nerf as such

a ranged class should never be top dps overall because its ranged - no need to explain more

to play a melee class well takes alot more skill than ranged

Thats why there are very little barbarian and Fighter and Rogues on Page 1 of the PVP leaderboard

Even though the leaderboard is broken to some extent, the ones tht are on page 1- 4 is in general regular pvpérs and good players who are ranked in top 10% most seasons