My Most Recent List of Biggest PVP Issues and Suggestions:

trgluestickz

I mentioned on discord I had sent in an updated list of biggest issues facing PVP and suggestions, to Nitocris, Crytpic Ridi, Chris, and Kreatyve. Someone wanted to see it in public form so here it is. I did extend this a little bit too:

Healers, self healing, and matchmaking involving healers:

This is issue #1 for most PVPers at the moment. Its a combination of healing being too strong in PVP and matchmaking commonly putting all of the healers onto the same team instead of splitting the available healers as evenly as it can. The end result is a lot of bland and unbalanced matches where its really hard to kill anything.

Matchmaking needs to be tweaked to reliably split the available healers in the que across both teams. Swapping roles inside PVP also needs to be disabled as part of this. Swapping loadouts that are the same role is fine.

Healing also probably needs a direct nerf, such as increasing healing depression.

Notably cleric in particular is stronger than the other 2 healers. I'd recommend improving the other 2 healer classes so they end up closer to where cleric will end up under these proposals.

Player self healing sources are also too strong right now. Lingering medicine boon, class self heals on things that aren't healers, drowned weapons, and the basic self healing mount combat power rejuvenating favor for example are OP.

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Kick Abuse:

Kicking has been out of control for a while now. Almost all PVP players kick their weakest or worst preforming pugs to increase their chances of winning the match. Which unfairly skews a lot of matches the other team would have won fair and square and makes conditions more toxic to newcommers.

Some players kick for other reasons like attempting to manually balance the match, but this doesn't actually work.

The thing is, it turns out you don't need to kick to score high, but most players still believe they have to or continue to do so out of frustration.
At worst, never kicking players gets you around the same rank as a player who does kick. Under most circumstances, its actually straight up beneficial to your rank to never kick anyone.

If anyone here would like to read a detailed explanation as to why kicking to improve rank doesn't actually work, here it is:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/e/2PACX-1vSlksjJMbY4yE55AGrjjCI5i6PLwOg-GolQjA_QfuX6CnItmollqq6ePIbr4-WblfVo-64O5QRqCGeD/pub

I proved this when I stopped kicking entirely a few seasons ago, even in the case of AFKs. I usually score around the same or better than I would for kicking. Razorleaf, who has consistently been anti-kick with rare exception of AFKs also benefits a lot from this, its part of why his rank is so stable every season.

The case for removing the ability to kick players from PVP is very strong, even from a completely selfish perspective.

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The lack of opportunities to play as a premade team:

This is a major cause of frustration among skilled players, players who miss playing with their friends, and players who want to improve.

The private que was supposed to be the outlet for this, but it wasn't enough because it takes too much time to set up a full 5vs5 preorganized match and many people can't show up consistently at the scheduled time. This is why every attempt to revive private premades fails now within a few months.

Players need to start using the regular dom que again. Nobody wants to que for it out of fear of running into farmers who take turns throwing games for eachother or never getting a pop. The best chance we have at rebuilding a healthy PVP community is to remove solo que, this will force the farm squads out and allow players to get matches as a group without the organization issues presented by private que.

What we currently have the population to support reliably are premade duo or trio teams with 2 or 3 random players as filler. Replacing the solo que with a duo que would also be a viable replacement for solo que for this reason.

Solo que didn't age well, the crowd it was catered to is the crowd that suffers the most from it remaining in the game. Neither demographic is happy with the current state of PVP and it is indeed really toxic right now.

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Mythic mount combat powers still a balance issue:

3k magnitude mounts and the self healing basic mount combat power (rejuvenating favor) are the biggest offenders here. While it is true 3k powers no longer oneshot strong players very often, they still play too big of a role in player damage output and deaths in a match.

Some classes are dependent on 3k mount powers right now because their regular powers aren't putting out enough damage to compete, a good example of this are the classes with a high wait time to use their rotations and a lack of consistent damage, such as rogue and barbarian.

Ranger to an extent also is dependent on having a 3k mount despite it being one of the strongest classes right now. The classes that don't need it include wizard and warlock.

Giant Toad Tongue Lash cannot be dodged, that is also a problem. The exception to this is warlock and barbarian, their stamina mechanics are the only ones that can dodge toad.

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Reward Farmers and Hopelessly Undergeared Characters In The Que:

This is also a major issue at the moment. There is a small population of blue and green geared players who are unable to be useful, they keep queing and making every team they get on lose.

A basic item level requirement could be established to remove the blue and green geared players. These players tend to be in small number at any given time and aren't needed to keep the que popping. An item level entry requirement could be established at around the point players start to become physically useful. I'd say that is somewhere around when they get mostly purple gear and around 400k HP or better.

The recent 40k IL scaleup introduced for PVP did help a little bit overall, but the blue and green gear guys are still useless. I'd suggest keeping the scale system in place but also add a basic IL to enter requirement. So we stop getting low effort chars coming in with blue undermountain gear to get the easy to earn rewards or simply because they don't know better.

fuxion

Theres some happy players in game with news that pvp system is getting some attention - Fantastic Really

Herewith my 2 cents as food for though ..

looking forward !

Priority:
1) PVP should be skill based and not overpowered by mount combat powers one shotting players ( suggest another 30%  nerf to current base damage)
2) matchmaking should be reworked - 2 clerics in one team and the opposite team has none should not be allowed for example 
3) If cleric queues as dps , then no change to healer spec should be allowed once mapped
4) try split ranged and melee classes
5) have at least two solo queues , where one is for more advanced players and one where new players can queue and have fun - lock itm level when queued (suggested)
6) Duo and Trio Queue options will be fantastic 

Classes:
1) paladin and Cleric should have DPS spec option tht is competitive
2) HR deflect/accuracy bug should be fixed - most broken class atm (not asking for nerf please just fix of the issue where HR does 200-250% extra damage if enemy deflects 
3) Warlock daily (Brood) needs rework ..it iis way too overpowered atm doing up to 1 million HP damage 
4) Rogues are somewhat underpowered ..suggest around 10%+ at-will base damage increase from testing
5) barbarian needs a dodge mechanic and prob 5-8% base damage increase
6) Fighter shield depletes from one encounter (example shadow strike) leaving no defense mechanism


Weapons
1) Mirage weapon set damage is top dog ito burst damage - its ok but the minions should not spawn in pvp map if tht is possible to implement cause we have semi permanent crowds now on nodes and impossible to target enemy player

Other suggestions:
maybe a few new interesting more organic battlegrounds (maps)an arena or map where other players can view the match/map in game - idea came about from window in LOMM but 360 degree view point will really be something cool !

gweddry

fuxion#7775 said:

Theres some happy players in game with news that pvp system is getting some attention - Fantastic Really

Herewith my 2 cents as food for though ..

looking forward !

Priority:
1) PVP should be skill based and not overpowered by mount combat powers one shotting players ( suggest another 30%  nerf to current base damage)
2) matchmaking should be reworked - 2 clerics in one team and the opposite team has none should not be allowed for example 
3) If cleric queues as dps , then no change to healer spec should be allowed once mapped
4) try split ranged and melee classes
5) have at least two solo queues , where one is for more advanced players and one where new players can queue and have fun - lock itm level when queued (suggested)
6) Duo and Trio Queue options will be fantastic 

Classes:
1) paladin and Cleric should have DPS spec option tht is competitive
2) HR deflect/accuracy bug should be fixed - most broken class atm (not asking for nerf please just fix of the issue where HR does 200-250% extra damage if enemy deflects 
3) Warlock daily (Brood) needs rework ..it iis way too overpowered atm doing up to 1 million HP damage 
4) Rogues are somewhat underpowered ..suggest around 10%+ at-will base damage increase from testing
5) barbarian needs a dodge mechanic and prob 5-8% base damage increase
6) Fighter shield depletes from one encounter (example shadow strike) leaving no defense mechanism


Weapons
1) Mirage weapon set damage is top dog ito burst damage - its ok but the minions should not spawn in pvp map if tht is possible to implement cause we have semi permanent crowds now on nodes and impossible to target enemy player

Other suggestions:
maybe a few new interesting more organic battlegrounds (maps)an arena or map where other players can view the match/map in game - idea came about from window in LOMM but 360 degree view point will really be something cool !

Mostly agree with the Priority part, except I would advise against any queue splitting. Instead pick one queue type, I would take solo/duo, and replace the current solo queue with that. Ranged/melee split is in my opinion and unnecessary constraint on matchmaking.

Disagree with the entire Classes part except for Brood of Hadar needing a nerf. Also note that negative stat "bug" is neither exclusive to accuracy and deflect nor exclusive to HR (or accuracy forte classes), and it never provides anywhere close to 200%, let alone 250% damage buff on deflect (i.e. even with hypothetical 100% deflect chance, which nobody has).

Agree with the mirage nerf and generally nerfing or removing mob spawning gear from pvp.

trgluestickz

I mostly agree with Razorleaf's assessment of Arix's comment. I like more areas of Arix's class adjustments section but that's really only difference for me.

The 10% at will dps increase for rogue would be nice but its probably not enough, we'd need enough dps from at wills to proc ribcage to really make an impact this way. I have heard other fighters like robb complain about how fighter shield works, I don't want anything that will make fighter more powerful than it is right now, but this seems like a forced playstyle complaint too, like some fighters don't want to play this way, that may be fixable without making things worse.

I also raised an eyebrow at the ranger bug mention for accuracy/deflect, pretty sure this isn't exclusive to ranger. They have high accuracy from forte and I have heard something about dodged ranger attacks making you take more damage but this sounds like Arix mushed 2 unrelated bugs into being same thing.

tonyvincent

Here are my personal top 3, immediate solutions, that will improve PvP in its entirety. It's from the top of my head.

Suggestion 1

Rewards upon loss: Glory and some low grade Refinement Items.

Rewards upon victory: PvP bag in inventory giving 15-25k AD, some mediocre Refinement Items and a rare chance at a Preservation Ward.

Rewards upon 3 victories in a row: PvP bag in inventory giving 40-50k AD, epic grade Refinement Item(s), and a chance of a random green artifact, artifact neck, artifact belt, and a Preservation Ward.
(Reason for amount of AD: 1 hour of PvP is 3-5 matches)

Suggestion 2

At full mount bolster and fully upgraded mount:
Temporarily remove all mount powers, or reduce their magnitudes.
Reduce single target damage mount powers to max 800 magnitudes.
Reduce AoE damage mount powers to max 500 magnitudes.
Reduce the common healing mount power to 80 magnitudes per tick of a total of 10 ticks.
(Similar to original poster)

(long term, classes with healing abilities will have to be toned down. Examples are GFs' Heal Daily, SWs' Vampiric Embrace, Healers' incoming healing, to mention some. Without the current damage mounts, which ruin PvP, these classes will never die)

Suggestion 3

Implement duo queue whereas both solo queue and duo queue sends people to the same match. The queue system would have to make sure to split duo parties to each group, and to prioritize splitting groups of highest item level.
(Similar to original poster)

We have to remember to prioritize what we'd like to see first, as many other things needing balancing are insignificant to others. I otherwise agree with what Marigolds/trgluestickz said. I am joining the discussion to bring weight to what has been suggested.

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treentbail21

Nerf the 3k mount damage power to 750 magnitude and half the healing mount.. If you do that and fix the broken accuracy to deflect severity interaction you'll have a really balanced game.

fuxion

Nerfing the mount powers is probably the most important for PVP
To make sure players are still killed buff all class damage to an acceptable %

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fuxion

Critical Path:

Class changes:

- Class changes Paladin(complete class rework - weakest class and almost unplayable and unwanted in pvp)
- Class changes Cleric (DPS path required)
- Class changes Rogue rework (seriously underpowered atm compared to Wiz, Ranger , SW and Fighter) testing confirms an avg 20/1 ratio vs these classes .. suggestion nerf hateful knifes daily BUT buff at-wills and encounters to acceptable levels.

General PVP System : Urgent changes required wrt

- Matchmaking (example - cannot have 2 heal cleric and sw heals in one team and only dps in other team)
- Overpowered mounts (nerf 40%)
- Good and effective class play should be rewarded
- PVP should have drivers that motivate more play & participation ( the only 6 matches required for ranking etc should be replaced with more play more reward for performing players)
- create a duel queue , 3v3 and 5 v5 guild queue with personal and stronghold related rewards pvp options
- Rewards and BIS gear should all be rng through participation in pvp NOT pve (even if same gear)
- Fix the deflect/accuracy bug

fabricjumper

I went pvp 52k il last month. Every team who had me on their side lost. MAYBE IT'S JUST ME or maybe Cryptic loves trickster rogues so much.

treentbail21

> @fabricjumper said:
> I went pvp 52k il last month. Every team who had me on their side lost. MAYBE IT'S JUST ME or maybe Cryptic loves trickster rogues so much.

Item level isn't everything % is really important too. That and there's no other way to hit accuracy cap at that high level as a barbarian so I don't even try lol.

trgluestickz

fuxion#7775 said:

Class changes:

- Class changes Paladin(complete class rework - weakest class and almost unplayable and unwanted in pvp)
- Class changes Cleric (DPS path required)
- Class changes Rogue rework (seriously underpowered atm compared to Wiz, Ranger , SW and Fighter) testing confirms an avg 20/1 ratio vs these classes .. suggestion nerf hateful knifes daily BUT buff at-wills and encounters to acceptable levels.

Paladin tends to be really cheesy anytime its actually strong in PVP I've noticed, its historically either too weak or overpowered pure cheese, right now it is on the weak end of that range. So rework from that point of view makes sense. Though I don't know enough about this class's inner workings to say for sure this is what they need or not.

PVP DPS cleric was strong in early mod 19, it started to go into decline towards the end of that mod and now in mod 20 I don't see any dps clerics in PVP. I don't know what caused that so not sure what to suggest.

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I will mention those rogue 1vs1 results vs things like warlock and fighter were with me running swift golden lion or t-rex combat powers instead of tunnel vision and my rogue only had 35% defense at that time. The players I was up against were also building well themselves and had lot of survival stuff on. 22 fighter kills for every 1 rogue kill is about what you can expect under those circumstances for 1vs1s.

If I was using the same stuff you are allowed to use in solo que and had better defense like I do now, the ratio should be much better for me but still skewed in favor of those classes. If even just 1 or 2 survival things had been missing from my opponents, that would also affect my ratio vs them.

My 1vs1s vs fighter would have had a roughly 2/1 ratio (fighter 2 kills for every 1 kill my rogue makes) if I was using a 3k mount and had better defense. Would likely be similar vs the warlock I fought too.

My guess is my 1vs1s vs fighter would have had around a 3 or 4/1 ratio (fighter 3 or 4 kills for every 1 kill my rogue makes) if they had been missing some of their survival stuff.

It is also worth mentioning these are PC results, XBOX has more drain abuse in solo que and possibly a few other variables different.

I agree rogue is still at a disadvantage vs those 4 classes you mentioned though, these are just the specifics.

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For what rogue needs to win more in a solo que environment at same skill as those 4 classes, you could either increase rogue's sustain/consistent damage directly or give them tons of busted burst damage via meta shift again. Another variable that could be changed that improves how well rogue does, is increasing average player skill in PVP, AKA, solo que players becoming better on average than they are right now.

What you suggested is a possible way to help with rogue sustain/consistent damage. What would probably work even better is if devs simply made it so rogue no longer loses stealth regeneration progress when they take damage (the bar still jumps down right now when you get hit), this alone would make a significant difference in how effective rogue is at winning things.