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When removing gear makes you better

adinosiiadinosii Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,294 Arc User
edited February 2 in Player Feedback (PC)
I have said it before. The current system is fundamentally broken. It is just not right when the best thing to do with your shiny new gear is to remove it.

(edit: note that this only applies to scaled content when you are above the cap).

Here is an example. Those are my stats when I enter the Cloak Tower - out of combat - no buffs. On the left are my stats with all my gear. Then I remove 4 of my 5 mount collars and get the stats on the right.

As you can see, my damage stays the same, but with the exception of Critical Severity, all my percentages go up. (And the reason critical severity went down was that one of the collars gave a bonus to that).

In other words, removing gear made me better. This is just wrong.

WRONG...WRONG...WRONG

I enjoy having a sense of progression. ...nonsense like this takes it away.

It is almost as if you do not understand that many players are motivated by a sense of progression - In fact, I would call that one of the core themes of D&D.....the endless loop of improving your skills and your gear.

This...this is something else, altogether.
Hoping for improvements...
Post edited by adinosii on
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Comments

  • mamalion1234mamalion1234 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,360 Arc User
    adinosii said:

    I have said it before. The current system is fundamentally broken. It is just not right when the best thing to do with your shiny new gear is to remove it.

    Here is an example. Those are my stats when I enter the Cloak Tower - out of combat - no buffs. On the left are my stats with all my gear. Then I remove 4 of my 5 mount collars and get the stats on the right.

    As you can see, my damage stays the same, but with the exception of Critical Severity, all my percentages go up. (And the reason critical severity went down was that one of the collars gave a bonus to that).

    In other words, removing gear made me better. This is just wrong.

    WRONG...WRONG...WRONG

    I enjoy having a sense of progression. ...nonsense like this takes it away.

    It is almost as if you do not understand that many players are motivated by a sense of progression - In fact, I would call that one of the core themes of D&D.....the endless loop of improving your skills and your gear.

    This...this is something else, altogether.

    i thought you get more hp when you get item level in your screenshot you get more when you remove gear..
  • jman3l#5579 jman3l Member Posts: 300 Arc User
    Yeah this is not good. Collars should give 100% of their item level in combined ratings. That would fix collars at least. Something is seriously wrong with the downscaling system.
  • zimxero#8085 zimxero Member Posts: 876 Arc User
    edited February 3
    After thinking more on scaling and running numbers... I believe the following would work better and be easier to manage and understand:


    1. Remove combined ratings from the game. (except for select cases)
    2. Set all default starting stats at a flat 25%.
    3. Each Item Level adds 5 stats or equivalent value.
    4. Scaling upward adds 20% of Item Level differential as combined rating. Scaling downward subtracts 20% of the Item Level difference in combined rating. (50,000 IL scaling to 25,000 IL would lose 5,000 to all ratings)

    A 50,000 ilevel character would have an average stat value of about 41.666%, with a lot of allocation control, while a new character's stats will average 25%. You never gain stats by removing stuff. It doesn't matter where your stats come from anymore. You just need one column to show the percentage. The stat percentages barely drop when you scale. There is room to raise the caps to 100%, and room for growth exists up to and exceeding 100,000 IL.


    * * * * * E X A M P L E S of G E A R * * * * *

    * Unbolstered Mythic Companion (4,500 IL) - 1,500 in every stat, 2,500 for augmented stats
    * Bolstered Mythic Companion (9,000 IL) - 3,000 in every stat, 5,000 for augmented stats
    * Mythic Staldorf Companion Power (1,500 IL) - plus 7.5% Combat Advantage
    * Legendary Barbed Insignia of Dominance (200 IL) - 500 Power, 500 Forte
    * Mythic Barbed Insignia of Dominance (400 IL) - 1000 Power, 1000 Forte
    * Enchantment, Rank 15 (200 IL) +1000 total added to specified stats
    * Practical Collar V (1000 IL) - Effect +200cr
    * Other Collar V (1000 IL) - Effect +100cr
    * Headwear (1000 IL) - 1250 CritSeverity, 1250 CombatAdvantage, 2500 Defense
    * Armor (1000 IL) - 2500 CritSeverity, 2500 Defense
    * Handwear (1000 IL) - 1250 CritStrike, 1250 CritAvoid, 2500 Defense
    * Weapon (1000 IL) - 2500 Combat Advantage, 1250 Accuracy, 1250 CritStrike
    * Offhand (1000 IL) - 2500 Combat Advantage, 1250 Accuracy, 1250 CritStrike
    * Footwear (1000 IL) - 1250 Awareness, 1250 CritAvoid, 2500 Defense
    * Neck (1000 IL) - 2500 CritStrike, 2500 CritSeverity
    * StatRing (1000 IL) - Effects plus 3750 PrimaryStat, 1250 SecondaryStat
    * Statless Ring (1000 IL) - Effects plus 100cr
    * Waist (1000 IL) - 2500 Defense, 2500 SecondaryStat
    * Shirt (1000 IL) - 2500 PrimaryStat, 2500 SecondaryStat
    * Leggings (1000 IL) - 2500 PrimaryStat, 2500 SecondaryStat
    * Mythic Artifact (900 IL) - 4500 total stats [iLevel doubled for these]
    * Campaign Boon ( 0 IL ) - no changes
    * Stronghold Offense/Defense Boon (600 IL) - 200cr, plus adds 200 Feature Stat per structure level
    * Stronghold Utility/PvP Boon ( 0 IL ) - no change
    * Companion Gear (1000 IL) - 200cr, +2000 allocated to specified stats
    * Runestone Rank15 (200 IL) - 1000 to SpecificStat
    * MountCombatPower Unbolstered (2,000 IL) 200cr plus ability
    * MountCombatPower FullBolster (4,000 IL) 400cr plus ability
    * MountEquipPower Unbolstered (2,000 IL) 400cr plus 4000 in specified stat
    * MountEquipPower FullBolster (4,000 IL) 800cr plus 8000 in specified stat
    Post edited by zimxero#8085 on
  • xenocide#6577 xenocide Member Posts: 201 Arc User
    I dont think cloak tower is a good dungeon to pick as an example, but I get the point you are trying to make.

    Since we are scaled back in dungeons the only time that having a high item level will benefit the player is when they are questing or doing content on the open world, like... running influence, doing dailies, generally stuff that isn't all that difficult to begin with.

    Basicaly once your character hits 35k Your done. You will never get any more dmg or HP in any of the dungeons that you run because of the scaling>


    Its part of the reason why I dont use defensive enchantments on my characters. I dont play a tank so they are basicaly useless, all they do is drop my offensive stats and boost my dmg by 113 when im questing, not a big loss
  • adinosiiadinosii Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,294 Arc User

    I dont think cloak tower is a good dungeon to pick as an example, but I get the point you are trying to make.

    Well, the same applies to every piece of scaled content, if you are above the limit. Your base damage is unchanged, and your percentages go up. THe net effect is exactly the same in every case.

    Hoping for improvements...
  • jman3l#5579 jman3l Member Posts: 300 Arc User
    > @adinosii said:
    > Well, the same applies to every piece of scaled content, if you are above the limit. Your base damage is unchanged, and your percentages go up. THe net effect is exactly the same in every case.

    Which means you do way less damage than someone with lower IL in said scaled content.. what a joke. Nice "progression."
  • thunderwillthunderwill Member Posts: 5 Arc User
    edited February 2
    adinosii said:

    > @adinosii said:

    > Well, the same applies to every piece of scaled content, if you are above the limit. Your base damage is unchanged, and your percentages go up. THe net effect is exactly the same in every case.


    Which means you do way less damage than someone with lower IL in said scaled content.. what a joke. Nice "progression."

    Well, that can happen, yes. A"veteran" with n IL of 54K, and 50% stats would (everything else being equal) get outperformed by a 55K IL player with 60% if they are both at capped base damage.

    This is why some players are complaining about their "sensxe of progression" basically disappearing.
    You did a small mistake.
    A"veteran" with n IL of 54K, and 50% stats would (everything else being equal) get outperformed by a 35K IL player with 60% if they are both at capped base damage.

    And that's why my "sense of progression" is desappearing :)
  • autumnwitchautumnwitch Member Posts: 1,006 Arc User
    hustin1 said:

    When the system first hit preview I performed a little experiment. I took my CC-build wizard, took off all her nifty Avernus armor, and put on High Vizier.

    Yes, I still have that stuff.

    Guess what. I lost some HP, but all my other ratings skyrocketed. I went to Avernus and I was kicking butt -- big time.

    As for weapons: I'm in the process of transitioning my alts back to the Drowned set. Yup. I might even break out the old Dusk boots.

    I concur with the OP -- the system is bass-ackwards.

    I've saved a lot of old hear over the years (with 30 toons that adds up) I am curious to see how they do with the change. It might make some of the old gear you get in chests more viable or at least more fun. But I read somewhere (I think it was on another site) they are going to nerf all the old equipment. So IDK what the heck to do any more.
    Boudica's Sisters - A Guild For Introverts
  • jman3l#5579 jman3l Member Posts: 300 Arc User
    Every time I look at the screen shots in the opening post I get sad =/. I did REDQ today and players that I should absolutely destroy based on game progression were barely under me. Looked at their stats and it was something similar. Mine were way lower.
  • adinosiiadinosii Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,294 Arc User
    edited February 3


    You did a small mistake.
    A"veteran" with n IL of 54K, and 50% stats would (everything else being equal) get outperformed by a 35K IL player with 60% if they are both at capped base damage.

    And that's why my "sense of progression" is desappearing :)

    Oops...right, fixed now thanks.

    Post edited by adinosii on
    Hoping for improvements...
  • acrinicusacrinicus Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 43 Arc User
    Thanks for the WoW comparison, I appreciate that. I never played WoW. If you wouldn't mind, could you lay out how you think WoW's scaling works? I welcome opinions and impressions if that's all you have. I find those helpful.

    P.S. I'll never forget my first RPG on PC. Gold box Curse of the Azure Bonds. I even read the book! Good times.
  • zimxero#8085 zimxero Member Posts: 876 Arc User
    acrinicus said:

    Thanks for the WoW comparison, I appreciate that. I never played WoW. If you wouldn't mind, could you lay out how you think WoW's scaling works? I welcome opinions and impressions if that's all you have. I find those helpful.


    P.S. I'll never forget my first RPG on PC. Gold box Curse of the Azure Bonds. I even read the book! Good times.

    Played the original Pool of Radiance for PC here. I don't believe any game has ever matched some of its gameplay and graphical feats. They never remade it cause they can't.
  • ewjax#5077 ewjax Member Posts: 55 Arc User
    acrinicus said:

    Thanks for the WoW comparison, I appreciate that. I never played WoW. If you wouldn't mind, could you lay out how you think WoW's scaling works? I welcome opinions and impressions if that's all you have. I find those helpful.


    P.S. I'll never forget my first RPG on PC. Gold box Curse of the Azure Bonds. I even read the book! Good times.

    Someone else could explain it I'm sure, its been 5+ years since I tried that game, and I only played for about 3 or 4 months. However there are people who enjoy that game.

    Basically theirs works but everything feels like grinding work, and I play games to have fun not to feel like I have a 2nd job.

    To be fair; This game is also has an annoying amount of grinding, but some of the grinding here can be avoided; for example; at least I can just buy a stack of dragon keys instead of grinding through old legacy content over and over for that one a day key to each area.

    I have a high pressure job, and in my spare time not spent at work or with my family, I just want to be able to play lots of dungeons or trials or be able to try lots of different classes and builds. The cost of a new toon here make trying lots of different classes and builds cost prohibitive, (and I spend ALOT of money on ZEN)

    The developers wasting time with the broken combat changes to make old boring content we have already run a 100 times "challenging" that could have been spent making new and interesting content with more dungeons and trials for us.

    How great would it have been if the development time used for the combat changes was used to have Mod 20 release with five or six new dungeons instead of just one?
  • plasticbatplasticbat Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 9,696 Arc User

    acrinicus said:

    Thanks for the WoW comparison, I appreciate that. I never played WoW. If you wouldn't mind, could you lay out how you think WoW's scaling works? I welcome opinions and impressions if that's all you have. I find those helpful.


    P.S. I'll never forget my first RPG on PC. Gold box Curse of the Azure Bonds. I even read the book! Good times.

    Someone else could explain it I'm sure, its been 5+ years since I tried that game, and I only played for about 3 or 4 months. However there are people who enjoy that game.

    Basically theirs works but everything feels like grinding work, and I play games to have fun not to feel like I have a 2nd job.

    To be fair; This game is also has an annoying amount of grinding, but some of the grinding here can be avoided; for example; at least I can just buy a stack of dragon keys instead of grinding through old legacy content over and over for that one a day key to each area.

    I have a high pressure job, and in my spare time not spent at work or with my family, I just want to be able to play lots of dungeons or trials or be able to try lots of different classes and builds. The cost of a new toon here make trying lots of different classes and builds cost prohibitive, (and I spend ALOT of money on ZEN)

    The developers wasting time with the broken combat changes to make old boring content we have already run a 100 times "challenging" that could have been spent making new and interesting content with more dungeons and trials for us.

    How great would it have been if the development time used for the combat changes was used to have Mod 20 release with five or six new dungeons instead of just one?
    MMO game is about grinding. To have less grinding (you still need to grind), you spend money. If you cannot deal with grinding, this game is not for you.
  • ewjax#5077 ewjax Member Posts: 55 Arc User

    MMO game is about grinding. To have less grinding (you still need to grind), you spend money. If you cannot deal with grinding, this game is not for you.

    Agreed grinding is a part of all of them as none of the MMO's could create enough new content to keep the players busy, so a level of grinding is necessary to keep the players doing something while they work on new content, and I don't mind spending money to avoid as much of it as I can. It also depends on each persons definition of grinding, I love running trials and dungeons especially Lomms and TIC's, so to me that is playing.

    When I hosted a NWN2 MOG (multiplayer online game, before they added the Massive in front) I had a Pentium 90 beside my desk as the server for years, and the two of working on the mod also had an issue trying to build enough content that ranged from areas for new players, areas for fast levelling, areas for questing, to areas for the elite, however; In NWN2 there were so, so, so many options in base classes, sub-classes, multi-classes, and prestige classes, the players could try a hundred different build combinations in a year if they wanted to.

    Heck, we even had manual scaling as the server only supported 120 concurrent players we could look in on the groups running content and add mobs/bosses on the fly if it was going to easy for them, and give them special DM only drops if they could finish the area ;-)
  • ewjax#5077 ewjax Member Posts: 55 Arc User
    Sorry for going off the OP's topic, the OP had a great well written example of how broken this game is now. Honestly since most of us get collars from the Zen store, I still can not imagine why they made it such a truly bad item to buy. Not only are they diminishing our playing experience, they are hurting their own revenue as everyone is telling people not to use collars if they have them and telling people not to buy them. End game weapons - also worthless, etc, etc, etc.
  • zimxero#8085 zimxero Member Posts: 876 Arc User
    edited February 4

    > @plasticbat said:

    > MMO game is about grinding. To have less grinding (you still need to grind), you spend money. If you cannot deal with grinding, this game is not for you.


    Grinding for what, now? There's literally no reason to grind for anything as equipment doesn't actually make your character any better. Every piece of equipment in this game gives it's item level x 15 in stats (except for the underdark rings, which are underpowered) and we're scaled even in the new dungeon. Yes, our item levels will go up, but in reality our characters never progress because this whole system is based on percents and (almost) every piece of gear gives the same percent of stats based on it's item level (100%).

    I largely agree with this statement. There are some things you can still grind for to improve a character, but it is much more limited now:

    * Ribcage Armor and other gear that have a superior effect, since effects don't scale
    * Boons - altogether these add about 10% extra damage and some defense, and are immune to scaling
    * Chain of Scales and/or Forger's Box - if you don't have them yet, are immune to scaling
    * Liiras Bell and/or Alliance Battle Horn - If you don't have them, might add damage, and are immune to scaling
    * Storyteller's Journal Artifacts - still very good equipment, even when scaled
    * Weapon and Armor Enchantments - These are worth more than their IL level, so they do not scale badly
    * Primary Companion - whether augment or battle, is worth more than IL level, so it does not scale down badly.
    * Tenebrous Enchantment - for it's IL level, is worth more than other enchantments
    * Main Weapon & Offhand - the set bonus does not scale.
    Lionheart, Celestial, Elemental, Stronghold, Sunset, Alabaster, and some Chult versions are decent
    * Other - AD & Upgrade Tokens
    Post edited by zimxero#8085 on
  • jman3l#5579 jman3l Member Posts: 300 Arc User
    Unfortunately the devs are now silent, which means they no longer care about fixing this it seems =/. I've heard absolutely no comment on this since the last community twitch stream.
  • vastano#2343 vastano Member Posts: 169 Arc User
    funny thing happened yesterday ran a skirm with my lvl 55 rogue it just scraped in through min IL got put into merchant princes folly
    there was me and 4 lvl 80s
    top damage dealer was my rogue but to be fair i did die twice


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