Why the tank nerf?

maxzius

Why nerf tanks? For real. You took the tanks bonus HPs from 40% down to 20%. We already don't have enough tanks in this game because they're a pain in the HAMSTER to level.

HPs, from your own formulas on every single piece of equipment, are worth far, far less than stats or damage. I'll take a DPS 20% bonus damage over a tanks 20% bonus HPs all day. Why the HAMSTER would you nerf tank HPs?

stark760

Worst thing i see now, is that upgrading companions to mythic actually hurts, not sure if it's worse for tanks. But shouldn't lose .5% on every stat for 1 mythic upgrade, do all 10, and you lose 5% on every stat. So if already upgraded a bunch of companions, you drove you defense, strength, crit, every stat down, 5% for 10 mythic's.

blargskull

I have two nerfs they tanked... my GWF is a barbarian who thinks he is a Thayan wizard, the nerf should work with this character when role playing now. The other is the Mad King but he just hangs in Barovia and passes out candy for Halloween. He is not meant to go anywhere else and I only play him in late October. Other times he stands by the campfire praying to level up. He is 71 now, drinks too much, tells very bad jokes, and passes out drunk.

melechest

Too simple. Cryptic only cares about DPS. They dont give a single **** for us tanks.

wilbur626

If you build a tank for the new system, ignoring the system that was replaced, you will be fine. There is no content currently in the game where you will be lacking Hitpoints if built properly.

I have tanked all the trials and the new M20 dungeon with 830k HP, and have completed all without 1 death.

The sources I utilize for HP is boons and armor reinforcements.
If I wanted to increase my HP more (wasting stats), I could add 4 companions with 15k HP + 30k HP from energon, 12k from SH boon, 9k HP from mythic mount and HP from an Augment companion. Thats a total of about 140.000 HP more than needed before calculating +% HP from tank role and CON bonus.

HP and sources of HP is not an issue for any tanks in the new system.

rosh

> @melechest said:
> Too simple. Cryptic only cares about DPS. They dont give a single **** for us tanks.

In fact It was the tanks who said on preview that they felt left out and not being needed so this defense change was on their end

And devs did not like the fact you can use azure to cap defense

wilbur626

Addition to my previous answer;
In my example I’m actually 8k item level below maximum (80.000 HP below), meaning I’m able to add 220.000 HP (before CON and role % boost.

If wanting to gear up inn all high item level gear and keeping relevant defensive stats, 1.100.000 to 1.200.000 hit points is very possible for a properly geared tank.

scylent

wilbur626 said:

Addition to my previous answer;

In my example I’m actually 8k item level below maximum (80.000 HP below), meaning I’m able to add 220.000 HP (before CON and role % boost.



If wanting to gear up inn all high item level gear and keeping relevant defensive stats, 1.100.000 to 1.200.000 hit points is very possible for a properly geared tank.

What class are you playing? Fighters have no damage mitigation sources anymore and the shield doesnt work as it used to. I transferred as a 53K ilvl and cannot balance stats due to there not being enough sources for Crit avoidance and awareness, so I am planning on reducing my iLvl to get closer, with 90 defense, 60 Awareness (capped with daily) and 70 crit avoidance in TIC 1st and second boss can take away my shield with two hits and kill me on the next at times. I have even tried using shield of the Paladin and Gond's hammer with little to no effect.

My major concern is no way to manage stamina and chose when I decide or not to take big hits as most bosses now track you down to kill you with their big hits no matter if you move. So I am curius as to how high iLvl Fighters have fixed this issue or did this changes made us that squishy. I have not heard many complaints from Paladins or Barbarians, but I think with changes of feats and dailies we were the ones that got stripped the most with the changes.

stark760

wilbur626 said:

If you build a tank for the new system, ignoring the system that was replaced, you will be fine. There is no content currently in the game where you will be lacking Hitpoints if built properly.

I have tanked all the trials and the new M20 dungeon with 830k HP, and have completed all without 1 death.

The sources I utilize for HP is boons and armor reinforcements.
If I wanted to increase my HP more (wasting stats), I could add 4 companions with 15k HP + 30k HP from energon, 12k from SH boon, 9k HP from mythic mount and HP from an Augment companion. Thats a total of about 140.000 HP more than needed before calculating +% HP from tank role and CON bonus.

HP and sources of HP is not an issue for any tanks in the new system.

Curious to see what you think of TIC. Every content has to looked at on its own now, since in some areas, things don't look too bad, or is overly easy. T2 hunts are a total joke now, red lady does maybe 5% of her old damage. Don't lose stamina at all. In TIC and TONG, same hits drain stamina in 1 hit. I am at 84% def and around 40-50% on every other stat. Can stack HP, but that doesn't help deflect being at 42%, or awareness. If want good HP, might cap defense and be 50% on everything else...not a good look IMO.

maxzius

wilbur626 said:

If you build a tank for the new system, ignoring the system that was replaced, you will be fine. There is no content currently in the game where you will be lacking Hitpoints if built properly.

I have tanked all the trials and the new M20 dungeon with 830k HP, and have completed all without 1 death.

The sources I utilize for HP is boons and armor reinforcements.
If I wanted to increase my HP more (wasting stats), I could add 4 companions with 15k HP + 30k HP from energon, 12k from SH boon, 9k HP from mythic mount and HP from an Augment companion. Thats a total of about 140.000 HP more than needed before calculating +% HP from tank role and CON bonus.

HP and sources of HP is not an issue for any tanks in the new system.

While all of that may be true, it doesn't address the nerf - at all. Your 830k HP would be higher without the nerf and your HPs are now only 10% higher than an Arbiter Cleric - think about that. Simple question - would you rather have 20% damage as a character or 20% HP? Sure, it's a trap question because everyone who knows anything about this game knows 20% damage is actually worth more than the 40% HP we used to get - and worth a whole hell of a lot more than 20% HP.

wilbur626

> @scylent#6295 said:
> What class are you playing? Fighters have no damage mitigation sources anymore and the shield doesnt work as it used to. I transferred as a 53K ilvl and cannot balance stats due to there not being enough sources for Crit avoidance and awareness, so I am planning on reducing my iLvl to get closer, with 90 defense, 60 Awareness (capped with daily) and 70 crit avoidance in TIC 1st and second boss can take away my shield with two hits and kill me on the next at times. I have even tried using shield of the Paladin and Gond's hammer with little to no effect.
>
> My major concern is no way to manage stamina and chose when I decide or not to take big hits as most bosses now track you down to kill you with their big hits no matter if you move. So I am curius as to how high iLvl Fighters have fixed this issue or did this changes made us that squishy. I have not heard many complaints from Paladins or Barbarians, but I think with changes of feats and dailies we were the ones that got stripped the most with the changes.

I play a Fighter Vanguard. Finished all trials and dungeons up until Mod20 vault of stars without any issue.

Here is a vid of my setup :

https://youtu.be/WikeCX-LGWs

wilbur626

> @stark760 said:
> Curious to see what you think of TIC. Every content has to looked at on its own now, since in some areas, things don't look too bad, or is overly easy. T2 hunts are a total joke now, red lady does maybe 5% of her old damage. Don't lose stamina at all. In TIC and TONG, same hits drain stamina in 1 hit. I am at 84% def and around 40-50% on every other stat. Can stack HP, but that doesn't help deflect being at 42%, or awareness. If want good HP, might cap defense and be 50% on everything else...not a good look IMO.

I have yet to have any problems in TIC. Increasing your other defensive stats might help. I run 85/70/65/60/48 myself at 47k item level

wilbur626

> @maxzius#3795 said:
> While all of that may be true, it doesn't address the nerf - at all. Your 830k HP would be higher without the nerf and your HPs are now only 10% higher than an Arbiter Cleric - think about that. Simple question - would you rather have 20% damage as a character or 20% HP? Sure, it's a trap question because everyone who knows anything about this game knows 20% damage is actually worth more than the 40% HP we used to get - and worth a whole hell of a lot more than 20% HP.

The reduction of the tank HP bonus is perfectly in line with the combat systems change. Why do you focus on this minuscule part of an entire system change ?

stark760

wilbur626 said:

> @stark760 said:

> Curious to see what you think of TIC. Every content has to looked at on its own now, since in some areas, things don't look too bad, or is overly easy. T2 hunts are a total joke now, red lady does maybe 5% of her old damage. Don't lose stamina at all. In TIC and TONG, same hits drain stamina in 1 hit. I am at 84% def and around 40-50% on every other stat. Can stack HP, but that doesn't help deflect being at 42%, or awareness. If want good HP, might cap defense and be 50% on everything else...not a good look IMO.



I have yet to have any problems in TIC. Increasing your other defensive stats might help. I run 85/70/65/60/48 myself at 47k item level

I'm at 51k TIL, so my main option is to undergear, take off collars and mount bonus to lose TIL, and jump 5% on every stat? And not upgrade comp to mythic, as that hurts more. Sorry, if thats the new system, i'll avoid the dungeons and save my scrolls and my time of rebuilding. Reminds me of mod 14-15 when they introduced changes to the feat tree...let people work on it, and removed all of it in 2-3 months.

wilbur626

@stark760

I have several loadouts over 53k, and all of them are able to reach the same stat percentages as my favorite 47k build.

Instead of reducing item level, you should eliminate all sources for stats that you don’t need as a tank (ALL), and focus only on defensive stats.

I see many players thinking that deliberately reducing itemlevel to get closer to 90% in more stats is needed, but this is false. I have no (zero,zip,nada) stats at 90% and the only thing I want to change is upgrading collars to mythic to increase HP and threat generation to maximum potential.

If you have access to Rainers character builder, I can share builds if you want.

stark760

wilbur626 said:

@stark760



I have several loadouts over 53k, and all of them are able to reach the same stat percentages as my favorite 47k build.



Instead of reducing item level, you should eliminate all sources for stats that you don’t need as a tank (ALL), and focus only on defensive stats.

So drop the hell out of HP? Thats all i can eliminate. My highest stat besides defense is 50.2%, no defensive stat other than defense over 49.9% crit avoid, 43.9% aware, 40.5% deflect. So eliminate power down from 47.5%...or crit from 36.8%. Forte is increasing accuracy...im at 48%. So drop all offensive stats to 35%?

wilbur626

@stark760

Having tons of HP really doesn’t help if you have that low defensive stats.

What class do you play and how much HP do you have?

wilbur626

https://i.imgur.com/i6SG5AW.png

This Vanguard loadout will have these stats fully buffed :
956982 HP (+ VIP party)
86% defense
88.8% awareness (67.8 + 15 from dig in + 6 from chain of scales)
78% crit avoid (68 + 10 from dig in)/
70,5% deflect (64,5 + 6 from master boon)
42,8% deflect severity

stark760

wilbur626 said:

@stark760



Having tons of HP really doesn’t help if you have that low defensive stats.



What class do you play and how much HP do you have?

Ive already noticed that. Im a vanguard w/ 892k hp

stark760

Thats why im not going to wrestle with this, when i know this "change" isnt the end product, or maybe even end system. Been through it before several times, and after put the work in, they kill everything we tried to do for that system. This "change" is worse to me, because wearing my same gear, i have more stats combined, on DPS spec vs tank. And there isnt a good starting point to say we have 90%'s on 1-2 stats like dps. If what they were going for was 850k hp, capped defense and 50% across board, thats what i see.

amascus

I just did IC and the group was scaled ....down. You think that is intentional?

stark760

amascus#1899 said:

I just did IC and the group was scaled ....down. You think that is intentional?

Yes, so everyone will burn more resources

scylent

@wilbur626

Ok, Seeing what you did there with the gear, tells me I was on the right track. I will do some more research on the different gear choices available to us now, Being that we are getting scaled in the current content means I don't have to worry too much with iLvl as long as holding aggro is not an issue. Appreciate the resource!

maxzius

> @wilbur626 said:
> > @maxzius#3795 said:
> > While all of that may be true, it doesn't address the nerf - at all. Your 830k HP would be higher without the nerf and your HPs are now only 10% higher than an Arbiter Cleric - think about that. Simple question - would you rather have 20% damage as a character or 20% HP? Sure, it's a trap question because everyone who knows anything about this game knows 20% damage is actually worth more than the 40% HP we used to get - and worth a whole hell of a lot more than 20% HP.
>
> The reduction of the tank HP bonus is perfectly in line with the combat systems change. Why do you focus on this minuscule part of an entire system change ?

The system change is the whole problem. The devs can't math.