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A List Of Some Reasonable-To-Implement Proposals For Improving Conditions In PVP
trgluestickz
Member Posts: 1,144 Arc User
In response to a recent comment from @rhroudadev#5641 in this other thread,
https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1259252/can-we-get-a-comment-regarding-matchmaking I agree we can't have very many que restrictions/matchmaking updates with the current population size. But not doing any new (and very much needed) restrictions and other PVP updates is also lowering the PVP population size and preventing it from getting bigger. The below is a list of PVP changes that could reasonably be implemented to PVP to improve conditions, and improved PVP conditions would do a lot to help increase PVP population size:
------------
#1) The current PVP population actually can support a basic item level requirement and it would improve PVP conditions to have one, here is more info on how to go about it:
The issue:
PVP has a longstanding issue where people are able to que up on green and blue geared characters that are physically incapable of doing anything useful or surviving at all. This is a major quality of life issue for both the PVP regulars and these low geared players who get thrown into the lion's den due to misleading que requirements. It also encourages people to exploit the PVP rewards system when you permit them to que up on bad characters that took very little investment to make. This issue also contributes to player frustrations with the matchmaking system by making matches a lot less fair and in many cases, impossible to win no matter how well your team plays.
Proposed point an Item level requirement should be set to:
Obviously an item level requirement can't be set to anything close to the point where characters are maxed out because of low population. But we do currently have the population to support setting it at a point where most PVP toons will be somewhat useful and able to do damage. I see a lot of undergeared people who have roughly 300k or 400k HP and mostly purple gear, these people are able to be useful and there are enough of them to keep the que popping when combined with the BIS PVP regulars. I don't know off the top of my head what item level number this is but this is around the point where I recommend setting an item level requirement to.
------------
#2) Remove the ability to kick players entirely.
The issue:
Right now kick abuse is out of control on all platforms, and even the basic item level req won't stop this problem, though it might help a little bit with this issue. Because lets face it, most kick votes are cast with the intent to improve the kicking team's odds of winning the match, nothing more. Its unfair to everyone, definitely worsens the PVP experience, and lowers the PVP population. And hilariously enough, it turned out to be completely unnecessary and in many cases detrimental for advancement when you actually look at how points are calculated for the leaderboard.
Only a tiny fraction of kicks are cast for good reasons. These situations where you encounter things like AFKers or griefers are much less common than people kicking to win and have way less impact on player's PVP experience than kick vote abuse does.
A note on a recent and common pro-kick argument:
Some people will tell you they are kicking players to try to balance the match so they don't have to give up and sit around for rest of the match, and a few of those people truly seem to believe this. But regardless of whether or not they believe what they are telling you, it doesn't work, most of the time when a player kicks someone off their team, it results in making the match even more unbalanced, usually in the kicking team's favor. The odds of one team giving up and waiting for match end stays around the same.
Why removing kicking is the best option:
At this point, the only viable option for improving PVP via the kick vote system seems to be to outright remove the ability to kick players. It does come with some cons like not being able to remove afkers for example, but all the other options I've heard proposed either would make things even worse or will be more work to create than the company is willing to dedicate resources to.
------------
#3) Shorten the season cooldown and the length of seasons:
The issue:
The 2 week cooldown inbetween seasons I gotta say is too long. Notably, very few games occur when the season is on cooldown too so the longer the cooldown lasts, the longer the que stays nearly dead for. The season itself also seems to be too long.
Proposed Solution:
Shorten the duration of the PVP seasons to just 2 or 3 weeks. And lower the cooldown to 1 week.
What this will accomplish:
This will increase the total number of matches that occur over time, because the cooldown lasts for less time, and the shorter season duration will eliminate some of unnecessary slow down and drop in match quality that tends to occur in the final 2 weeks each season.
------------
#4) Remove the solo que (small population option) or create a separate team oriented leaderboard for the regular domination que (larger population option)
With our current population size, the best option is to have the regular dom que be treated as the main que everyone uses again and to remove the solo que entirely. Solo que is currently a major barrier for getting players to learn how to play as a team and form stronger bonds with other players. This is lowering the quality of the PVP experience and preventing player skill from rising past a certain point. Nobody has access to consistent practice anymore for improving and the solo que is the main reason why that is.
Solo que was introduced to try to give lone queing players and undergeared players a safe haven where they wouldn't get stomped by preorganized teams. But solo que has failed miserably at preventing these players from experiencing tons of unfair matches and getting stomped constantly, conditions for these players are significantly worse today than they were before the solo que was introduced.
If the population ever increases enough, then solo que and regular dom que might have large enough populations to keep both popping. But in order for that to happen, other improvements to PVP need to be made and regular dom needs to be better supported with team oriented features, including creating a separate leaderboard for it instead of it continuing to share the same leaderboard with solo que.
------------
#5) Add a basic role restriction for healers to matchmaking.
The issue:
Large numbers of healers frequently all get piled onto the same team and the other team doesn't get any. This results in a lot of ridiculously unbalanced matches.
Even with the low population size, I can't see any good reason why we can't at least have a pile of healers split evenly across both teams instead of all being put onto the same team.
Proposed Solution:
If there is more than one healer in the que, both teams should be guaranteed to get at least 1. The que should attempt to evenly split the number of healers in que whenever it is possible to do so.
------------
#6) Change the PVP campaign tasks to be repeatable milestone rewards instead of a one time only deal:
Since the old season store rewards are being changed to be more transmute focused, you could have both rewards systems in place without it being overkill
This is an idea I've brought up many times over the years. but if you tie good rewards to repeatable milestone tasks designed to encourage people to play more matches and play to win, this will up the incentive for people to play more games. This system is also easier to safeguard from abuse than other systems like granting participation rewards at the end of a season or granting rewards directly from a match.
These tasks would be similar to the current tasks but would include some new tasks, here are some examples I cooked up:
Win 100 domination matches: receive 2 coal wards
Kill 2500 enemies while standing on a node: Get 10 mark of potency rank 7's. The 2nd time you complete this task, you gain a title.
Outheal the other team's healers in 500 matches: Gain 1 rank 12 armor enchantment choice pack and a 42 slot bag of holding. You also gain a title the first time you complete this task.
Heal 2500 teammates that are below 10% health. Gain 10 mark of potency rank 7's. You also gain the title "clutch healer" the second time you complete this task.
Revive 300 allies: get 3 stacks of 99 PVP heal potions, 1 stack of portable altars, and a title the first time you complete this task
Win 100 guantlgrym matches: Get a recolored howler mount and a title the first time you complete this task. Each future completion grants a stack of 99 pres wards.
Cap 800 nodes in guantlgrym: Get a stack of 99 potions of speed and a title the first time you complete this task. Repeats of this task grant 30 potions of speed and 3 mark of potency rank 5.
https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1259252/can-we-get-a-comment-regarding-matchmaking I agree we can't have very many que restrictions/matchmaking updates with the current population size. But not doing any new (and very much needed) restrictions and other PVP updates is also lowering the PVP population size and preventing it from getting bigger. The below is a list of PVP changes that could reasonably be implemented to PVP to improve conditions, and improved PVP conditions would do a lot to help increase PVP population size:
------------
#1) The current PVP population actually can support a basic item level requirement and it would improve PVP conditions to have one, here is more info on how to go about it:
The issue:
PVP has a longstanding issue where people are able to que up on green and blue geared characters that are physically incapable of doing anything useful or surviving at all. This is a major quality of life issue for both the PVP regulars and these low geared players who get thrown into the lion's den due to misleading que requirements. It also encourages people to exploit the PVP rewards system when you permit them to que up on bad characters that took very little investment to make. This issue also contributes to player frustrations with the matchmaking system by making matches a lot less fair and in many cases, impossible to win no matter how well your team plays.
Proposed point an Item level requirement should be set to:
Obviously an item level requirement can't be set to anything close to the point where characters are maxed out because of low population. But we do currently have the population to support setting it at a point where most PVP toons will be somewhat useful and able to do damage. I see a lot of undergeared people who have roughly 300k or 400k HP and mostly purple gear, these people are able to be useful and there are enough of them to keep the que popping when combined with the BIS PVP regulars. I don't know off the top of my head what item level number this is but this is around the point where I recommend setting an item level requirement to.
------------
#2) Remove the ability to kick players entirely.
The issue:
Right now kick abuse is out of control on all platforms, and even the basic item level req won't stop this problem, though it might help a little bit with this issue. Because lets face it, most kick votes are cast with the intent to improve the kicking team's odds of winning the match, nothing more. Its unfair to everyone, definitely worsens the PVP experience, and lowers the PVP population. And hilariously enough, it turned out to be completely unnecessary and in many cases detrimental for advancement when you actually look at how points are calculated for the leaderboard.
Only a tiny fraction of kicks are cast for good reasons. These situations where you encounter things like AFKers or griefers are much less common than people kicking to win and have way less impact on player's PVP experience than kick vote abuse does.
A note on a recent and common pro-kick argument:
Some people will tell you they are kicking players to try to balance the match so they don't have to give up and sit around for rest of the match, and a few of those people truly seem to believe this. But regardless of whether or not they believe what they are telling you, it doesn't work, most of the time when a player kicks someone off their team, it results in making the match even more unbalanced, usually in the kicking team's favor. The odds of one team giving up and waiting for match end stays around the same.
Why removing kicking is the best option:
At this point, the only viable option for improving PVP via the kick vote system seems to be to outright remove the ability to kick players. It does come with some cons like not being able to remove afkers for example, but all the other options I've heard proposed either would make things even worse or will be more work to create than the company is willing to dedicate resources to.
------------
#3) Shorten the season cooldown and the length of seasons:
The issue:
The 2 week cooldown inbetween seasons I gotta say is too long. Notably, very few games occur when the season is on cooldown too so the longer the cooldown lasts, the longer the que stays nearly dead for. The season itself also seems to be too long.
Proposed Solution:
Shorten the duration of the PVP seasons to just 2 or 3 weeks. And lower the cooldown to 1 week.
What this will accomplish:
This will increase the total number of matches that occur over time, because the cooldown lasts for less time, and the shorter season duration will eliminate some of unnecessary slow down and drop in match quality that tends to occur in the final 2 weeks each season.
------------
#4) Remove the solo que (small population option) or create a separate team oriented leaderboard for the regular domination que (larger population option)
With our current population size, the best option is to have the regular dom que be treated as the main que everyone uses again and to remove the solo que entirely. Solo que is currently a major barrier for getting players to learn how to play as a team and form stronger bonds with other players. This is lowering the quality of the PVP experience and preventing player skill from rising past a certain point. Nobody has access to consistent practice anymore for improving and the solo que is the main reason why that is.
Solo que was introduced to try to give lone queing players and undergeared players a safe haven where they wouldn't get stomped by preorganized teams. But solo que has failed miserably at preventing these players from experiencing tons of unfair matches and getting stomped constantly, conditions for these players are significantly worse today than they were before the solo que was introduced.
If the population ever increases enough, then solo que and regular dom que might have large enough populations to keep both popping. But in order for that to happen, other improvements to PVP need to be made and regular dom needs to be better supported with team oriented features, including creating a separate leaderboard for it instead of it continuing to share the same leaderboard with solo que.
------------
#5) Add a basic role restriction for healers to matchmaking.
The issue:
Large numbers of healers frequently all get piled onto the same team and the other team doesn't get any. This results in a lot of ridiculously unbalanced matches.
Even with the low population size, I can't see any good reason why we can't at least have a pile of healers split evenly across both teams instead of all being put onto the same team.
Proposed Solution:
If there is more than one healer in the que, both teams should be guaranteed to get at least 1. The que should attempt to evenly split the number of healers in que whenever it is possible to do so.
------------
#6) Change the PVP campaign tasks to be repeatable milestone rewards instead of a one time only deal:
Since the old season store rewards are being changed to be more transmute focused, you could have both rewards systems in place without it being overkill
This is an idea I've brought up many times over the years. but if you tie good rewards to repeatable milestone tasks designed to encourage people to play more matches and play to win, this will up the incentive for people to play more games. This system is also easier to safeguard from abuse than other systems like granting participation rewards at the end of a season or granting rewards directly from a match.
These tasks would be similar to the current tasks but would include some new tasks, here are some examples I cooked up:
Win 100 domination matches: receive 2 coal wards
Kill 2500 enemies while standing on a node: Get 10 mark of potency rank 7's. The 2nd time you complete this task, you gain a title.
Outheal the other team's healers in 500 matches: Gain 1 rank 12 armor enchantment choice pack and a 42 slot bag of holding. You also gain a title the first time you complete this task.
Heal 2500 teammates that are below 10% health. Gain 10 mark of potency rank 7's. You also gain the title "clutch healer" the second time you complete this task.
Revive 300 allies: get 3 stacks of 99 PVP heal potions, 1 stack of portable altars, and a title the first time you complete this task
Win 100 guantlgrym matches: Get a recolored howler mount and a title the first time you complete this task. Each future completion grants a stack of 99 pres wards.
Cap 800 nodes in guantlgrym: Get a stack of 99 potions of speed and a title the first time you complete this task. Repeats of this task grant 30 potions of speed and 3 mark of potency rank 5.
--
PVP Rogue,
--[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
----------------------------------------------------------------
Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin)
Ingame Handle: trgluestickz
Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563
Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression
Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud
Platform: PC
PVP Rogue,
--[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
----------------------------------------------------------------
Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin)
Ingame Handle: trgluestickz
Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563
Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression
Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud
Platform: PC
Tagged:
1
Comments
-- just a level 80 character of your pve class
-- preset stats for everyone
-- no gear, no mount powers or companions of any kind
-- the visuals are preserved from the original character.
You can then adjust the preset stats of each class to balance things out for everyone.
In general, pvp games work well when there's a counter for everything. You can also adjust the preset stats to make classes a bit more unique. Like rogues could be strong on combat advantage while paladins could be strong on awareness, and so on.
I would be very happy to have something like this, as I'm sure would be many other people.
The pros for this system were that it was easier to balance and more balanced than current PVP. And also allowed for premade teams. The combination of not needing any gear for it and it allowing preorganized teams did make it a decent option for teaching new players how to rotate nodes, and also did make it possible for players who couldn't/wouldn't invest in a PVP build to play PVP.
The cons however are that a system like this's greatest strength (simplicity) is also its greatest weakness. This system would be too easy to master and people would rapidly lose interest in it once they've been there done that. We already saw exactly that happen even for the short time chicken PVP was out for, a ton of people played it when it was new for the first few days, but the ques were nearly empty with very few participants as the event wore on.
A lot of people erroneously thought chicken PVP was more skill based than current PVP, its not. Its actually got a very low skill cap and this also isn't good for a competition driven thing like PVP.
and as I mentioned before, we really only have the population to support 1 que for PVP at a time, and chicken/heros PVP being permanent would pull some players away from the regular PVP que in the short term, and then the new chicken/heros PVP mode will start to die back and the end result is that the devs will have wasted a lot of resources for yet another PVP gimmick that doesn't last.
In conclusion, chicken PVP needs to remain an event to keep its magic, and shouldn't be made permanent.
PVP Rogue,
--[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
----------------------------------------------------------------
Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin)
Ingame Handle: trgluestickz
Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563
Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression
Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud
Platform: PC