Official - Combat Changes - Master Trials

noworries

This thread is for any feedback/bugs related to master trials such as Zariel and Tower of the Mad Mage.

This content has not had internal testing yet with the changes, as such this content is the most likely to have difficulty issues at the current time.

harpersteel

Added notes to different thread

hastati96

Zariel Master - Tank perspective after 3x dmg patch

With the newest patch and the 3x damage multiplier to Zariel (master) it still doesn't really feel like the version on live.
From a tank perspective (90% def, other defense stats at 60%) it still feels very easy to survive the hits.

On live:




On preview:



On preview Blade of Light hits between around 80k and 180k (after all resistances) which isn't a lot for a tank with 1mio HP + 40% shield. I can't say anything about survivability of DPS. For a tank it feels easy compared to the live version.

The damage after all resistances seems to be like 50% of the ones from live. On preview the highest possible damage of Blade of Light seems to be the lowest it can deal on live.

Judgement is still not survivable.

I would suggest to tune up the damage further on the hits that are meant for the tank.

tardbath

In the next build, bosses will have perma CA, so we have to wait.

jman3l

@noworries#8859 so three attacks in Zariel's Challenge are not performed by Zariel herself, so I think they did not get the 3x multiplier that you put on the trial in the last patch. These attacks are "rain of swords (the tether knives)", "scathing light/hypo", and great divide (that lunge attack she does when she phases).
Thanks very much,
Neko

hastati96

jman3l#5579 said:

@noworries#8859 so three attacks in Zariel's Challenge are not performed by Zariel herself, so I think they did not get the 3x multiplier that you put on the trial in the last patch. These attacks are "rain of swords (the tether knives)", "scathing light/hypo", and great divide (that lunge attack she does when she phases).
Thanks very much,
Neko

These also have a different behavior than the hits from Zariel. If you check my screenshot above "Swordfall" and "Weight of Virtue" hit me, as a tank, with >=50% Effectiveness which confuses me a bit. It shouldn't be above 10% Effectiveness, except it would ignore Defense.

hastati96

so with the activation of CA I have to say Zariel hits pretty hard now. I was using the same setup as in the first try, with only 32% Awarness. The damage has roughly doubled with the new patch.

It feels like Zariel hits even harder than on live but I am not running an Awarness build so maybe have to try this too.



Update:

I was running again with the following build, Justicar - 940k HP:



The damage felt pretty similar to the one on live server. It seems like an Awarness build will be a must-have for a tank soon.

Maybe some words about balancing the tanks. Fighter has a huuuge advantage because Dig In negates any CA. Since Iron Warrior and Absolution has no use anymore if you are capped at 90% Defense, Barbarian's Endouring Shout + Battle High seems to be a very strong combo in the new system. Only Paladin seems to be let down with only Heroism and no additional encounter for damage resistance or temporary HP.

tardbath

Could you hold aggro against decent dps with those stats ? I agree that tanks will need balancing after those changes, maybe more sources of CA negation. Keep in mind that Barbarians will have Awareness as a Forte stat on next patch , and Paladins start with 8 more CHA in character selection(barb 10 vang 10 pal 18), so 8% more stats in forte!!

Are there any tests that show that iron warrior/absolution have no use anymore ? As far as i can understand they are extra mitigation layers.

mamalion1234

zariel shouldnt kill a player with 515k hp 70% defence( holy avenger+astral shield) wyvern and griffon

supmadbro

mamalion1234 said:

zariel shouldnt kill a player with 515k hp 70% defence( holy avenger+astral shield) wyvern and griffon

Imo it should kill them. You're missing a lot potential mitigation/damage reduction, no support dailys, no swarm, no bulette, no pally sigil and more.

rualkgreywolf

It looks like that Halaster and Zariel are ignoring 10% of my defense, is that intentional or a bug?

aster

hellow !

Today we tested ToMM in Preview.


in the first phase some attacks are really too strong. U can watch in that video
https://youtube.com/watch?v=Dryl6rOpJD4&t=9s


Heatwave: it seems doing 150/200k dmg for sec


That is Hypothermia on me, on split healers phase (I have 55% defense and 55% crit avoidance; 600k+ hp)


That Superstorm on First Phase:


That's chains:




I Have the entire act of the run, so i can help if need something!
Like always, hope u can fix asap

malistaire

Halaster appears to be hitting too hard after the December 18th patch.



Here are the stats of my barb tank:

IL: 49,421
HP: 936,544
damage: 4,942


Using Enduring Shout, I have 1,091,345 HP. Unfortunately since I used Enduring Shout to take the first Annihilation Orb, with it's 27.8 second cooldown, it was still on cooldown when it was time to take the second annihilation orb.

As you can see the second annihilation orb did enough damage to one shot me.

It's not possible to consistently survive 2 annihilation orbs on barb tank.

Halaster's At-will attacks are also hitting for too much.




If you get unlucky and halaster gets 3 critical hits in a row, no healer can keep you alive.

malistaire

Here is some logs from Zariel's Challenge

Im using the same build as I used in ToMM in the previous post

Zariel's At-will attacks:


White-noise:


Judgement:


Hallowed Slash:


Zariel's at-will attacks do not critical. Judgement in not survivable for any tank.

I think for both halaster and Zariel, damage should be reduced by around 1.5x-2x to get them to a good place

hastati96

I agree with @malistaire#9098 the damage after the laste patch for Zariel is faaar to high, it has doubled since the last patch. Now I barely survive the first 3 At-Will hits of Zariel, sometimes I don't (without a healer ofc).

jman3l

hastati96 said:

so with the activation of CA I have to say Zariel hits pretty hard now. I was using the same setup as in the first try, with only 32% Awarness. The damage has roughly doubled with the new patch.

It feels like Zariel hits even harder than on live but I am not running an Awarness build so maybe have to try this too.



Update:

I was running again with the following build, Justicar - 940k HP:



The damage felt pretty similar to the one on live server. It seems like an Awarness build will be a must-have for a tank soon.

Maybe some words about balancing the tanks. Fighter has a huuuge advantage because Dig In negates any CA. Since Iron Warrior and Absolution has no use anymore if you are capped at 90% Defense, Barbarian's Endouring Shout + Battle High seems to be a very strong combo in the new system. Only Paladin seems to be let down with only Heroism and no additional encounter for damage resistance or temporary HP.

I think the meta will be to not cap your defense at 90% as a tank, but leave it at a value where when damage mitigation is used (astral shield/hallowed ground/warlock daily/green circle thing/etc.) you are effectively at 90% defense. That allows you to put other stats into awareness and critical avoidance/deflect. Let me know what you think as I do not main a tank, just have an extremely lackluster sentinel alt xD.

jman3l

I agree with Aster's post/Hastati's post above. With the introduction of CA to attacks, some of the big hits one shot dps. Maybe give them a tiny nerf (start with 5%, we want these mechanics to be difficult). And the attacks reserved for tanks probably need a solid 10% to 20% nerf on Zariel, not sure for TOMM.

jman3l

supmadbro said:

mamalion1234 said:

zariel shouldnt kill a player with 515k hp 70% defence( holy avenger+astral shield) wyvern and griffon

Imo it should kill them. You're missing a lot potential mitigation/damage reduction, no support dailys, no swarm, no bulette, no pally sigil and more.

Superstorm was one shotting my ranger on preview (Neko-Kun). I had 616k hp, full barkshield, capped defense and like 40% awareness, and zero skulls lol. Its a BIT too much.

noworries

Halaster and Zariel were brought down from a 3x damage multiplier to a 2.5x with the Friday patch. I will bring them down to 2x for the next update.

brewald

noworries#8859 said:

Halaster and Zariel were brought down from a 3x damage multiplier to a 2.5x with the Friday patch. I will bring them down to 2x for the next update.

@noworries#8859 Could you check the speed of attacks too?
Since friday patch Halaster attacks are very accelarated, not enought time between two of them.

Unknown

This content has been removed.

hastati96

jman3l#5579 said:

I think the meta will be to not cap your defense at 90% as a tank, but leave it at a value where when damage mitigation is used (astral shield/hallowed ground/warlock daily/green circle thing/etc.) you are effectively at 90% defense. That allows you to put other stats into awareness and critical avoidance/deflect. Let me know what you think as I do not main a tank, just have an extremely lackluster sentinel alt xD.

Yeah that would make sense, I agree. Everyone is still figureing out the "new meta" so the builds aren't perfect yet. I will try your suggestion

dracory1

Alright, so here is a quick comparison of Preview vs Live Weight of Virtue for DPS

PREVIEW
[12/21 0:49][Combat (Self)]Zariel deals 902976 (1978872) Radiant Damage to you with Weight of Virtue.

LIVE
[12/21 0:54] [Combat (Self)] Zariel deals 464629 (1278828) Radiant Damage to you with Weight of Virtue.

No deflect. I have used Paladin Sigil - 15% DR, and Resiliency of the Depths - 5% DR.
Additionally I have used up my stamina. Which meant that I had around 7% DR from Lionheart weapon set bonus.
And I have also used Courage Breaker on the boss, -15% OD.

My defense on live was capped.
My defense on preview was at 73.5% (ITC bonus + 63.5% defense).

The problem is - I have used up all my companion slots and capped defense just for that where it is not healthy for DPS.
I am sorry but with 600k+ HP (637k on my rogue) and mind set of gaining some power since I did have 10 mythic companions, as well as 10 mythic mounts, I should achieve better results than on live server. This. Is. Much. Much. Worse. I mean it. Even with 1/5 of damage going next patch it will still be too high for DPS to survive with 50% defense - and if I use nothing for defense I have only ~44.5% due to my item level being 52k and heavily bringing my % down.

Please, don't tell me that we should just use more debuffs as phase 5 includes 4 WoVs in a row. Even on live I can survive outside of protection bubbles with just 500k HP if I happen to stand too far away from healers and tanks, which means that boss is getting debuffed for me with just a griffon, wyvern knives and tiamat's orb for the most part.

Edit:
What I forgot to mention, though it is a minor part, is Barkshield procs, which are negligible due to being at 2 stacks in both cases.
----------
Copied from preview build topic for better visibility and relevance.

hastati96

Zariel still hits too hard after the newest patch. I have 90% defense and 65% Awareness as Justicar. Zariel's At-Will "Blade of Light" still hits for 500k+ in some cases which is a lot if you have around 950k HP. Without a healer I can't even survive the first 3 hits of the fight in some cases.



Maybe some overall feedback too. Now Awareness is the only defense stat you want in trials, at least for tanks which makes me a bit sad. It has such a huge impact that every stat put into deflect or critical avoidance (zariel can't crit btw) is a waste compared to Awareness. Fighter are still immune to Combat Advantage with "Dig In" and Barbarians have Awareness with Forte, only Justicar is the only one that doesn't have an additional help with Combat Advantage damage. At least for trials there is a huge inbalance created between tanks with the new system.

Another idea would be to make encounters like Iron Warrior and Absolution to give CA immunity for 8 sec so they would have a use at least if you have defense capped and would be some kind of bossfight encounter.

sagakaiyume

With the change to def, iron warrior and absolution should have value again anyways, but pallys do need something to help with awareness. I assume zariel not being able to crit is a bug, wouldn't make any sense if it was intentional.

mamalion1234

sagakaiyume#0847 said:

With the change to def, iron warrior and absolution should have value again anyways, but pallys do need something to help with awareness. I assume zariel not being able to crit is a bug, wouldn't make any sense if it was intentional.

zariel never critical since release.

hastati96

sagakaiyume#0847 said:

With the change to def, iron warrior and absolution should have value again anyways, but pallys do need something to help with awareness. I assume zariel not being able to crit is a bug, wouldn't make any sense if it was intentional.

How do they have an use again? I thought DR is capped at 90%, even with the new formula.

mamalion1234

hp 611k defence 46,5% awareness 35.4%.

mitigation powers-artifacts-mounts used:

ray of effeblement, shield of faith
wyvern-sigil of paladin
swarm-griffon

mamalion1234

Zariel cannot critical while halaster can making tower of mad mage impossible to play...

make both to critical hit but then you will need to lower even more the damage.

hastati96

The critical hits on Halaster are not bearable. You either focus on Awareness or Critical Avoidance but it doesn't matter because both builds don't bring the needed survivability. Every Annihilate + the 3 At-Will hits that follow feel like a heal check.

Annihilate goes up to 5.2mio base damage at 1 stack already, not possible to survive 3+ stacks as Justicar. Some of Halaster's Annihilate's (the white ball thrown on tank):

elderislt

> @hastati96 said:
> The critical hits on Halaster are not bearable. You either focus on Awareness or Critical Avoidance but it doesn't matter because both builds don't bring the needed survivability. Every Annihilate + the 3 At-Will hits that follow feel like a heal check.
>
> Annihilate goes up to 5.2mio base damage at 1 stack already, not possible to survive 3+ stacks as Justicar. Some of Halaster's Annihilate's (the white ball thrown on tank):

Remember tomm is trail whu need 2 tanki, so 2 bols for each, no more solo tanki tomm, wats one of idea bring 2 tank in tomm + now dps don't wata take agro, so I hope so dps more time ceck agro bars + all debif artis like halaster, sigil, knife, less personal artifact same gud idea