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Revamping the companion system

the1truehunterthe1truehunter Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 211 Arc User
edited October 2020 in General Discussion (PC)
Even if we got some updates on the system that seems to work great, at least in my opinion there are certain elements that became obsolete.
One of them is the gap between augment and striker companions. At this point most of us are using augments as summoned companions and few that use Xuna/Chicken as active strikers. While I don`t mind having diversity in how players build their toons I have to admit that It concerns me the fact that in endgame, one of these two companions can deal almost the same damage as the summoner (EX: 200millions damage without Xuna in 10minutes TOMM run vs 350millions damage with Xuna in the same amount of time). I can provide act logs on request but we all know how powerful those 2 companions are compared with others and this become a major problem with the system. The company waste their time and resources creating companions that no one will use. So my opinion on how the system should be revamped stays this way:

1. Make separate tabls for striker/augment companions and give them different functionalty.

The main tab will display only the augmented companions and their functionality will be the same (sharing ratings with the user) while the second one will display the striker companions ( the striker will have independent ratings from bondings/companion gears that will allow them to deliver more or less damage depending on their abilities/ranks/enchantments). The difference that comes with this revamped system is that now your striker companion can be summoned at the same time with augment, he no longer atack continuously and can be triggered like an artifact presing a button and having an internal cooldown (shorter/longer depending on his rank). For a better understanding on how the system look I will post below two pictures


First pannel will display your augment companion along with his bonding/equipment slots.


Second pannel will display your striker companion along with his enchantments slots (in this case Indomitable runestones)

Striker companion abilities will have the following effects : Damage over time (bleeding/cold/burn/poison), Stun, Heal over time
The ability can be triggered once at 120 sec for uncommon companions, 90 sec for rare companions, 60 sec for epic companions, 30 sec for legendary companions.

The ability trigger will be the same as a mount power using any keybind (in my example it is slotted on 7) :


The vision behind this change was to keep the player involved in gameplay without founding a base where his companion deals more damage than him. For me the current system where you run a Xuna build or Chicken build is a gamebreaking along with all the useless companion we have.
This system will allow players to choose with companion ability fits their playstyle better and how to manage them in order to proc different bonuses/feats and so on.

2. Augmented Companion skin system.

I have plenty cool looking companions but I never used them due to their functionality. How many of us love how a companion looks like but can`t use it due to his functionality? The separate tabs for the companions will allow us to choose how our summoned companions will look like wihout having to give up on functionality. I would like to see a separate tab where I can find all the companion skins available in game to choose from. The replacement process should cost AD (let`s say 5 to 10k AD ) similar with our appearance replacement process. This way we break the point where we see Bulette Pups/Xunas/Chickens all around and have a diversity in how we can customize our companions and show off our best looking ones. I perosnally see Vanity pets included in the companion skin system but this is just my personal preference.



I don`t request a nerf to any of these companions but a redesign of the system that will allow us to use both augments/strikers companions at the same time, the ony difference will be in how striker`s abilities will work. In the current system your companion have an internal cooldown for each ability except his main atack with in most cases is pretty low. So my proposal was to make them work like mount powers work. The advantage will be in the fact that now you can choose when to deliver his atack procing certain feats/passives or dealing much more damage during artifact calls.


Post edited by the1truehunter on
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Comments

  • the1truehunterthe1truehunter Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 211 Arc User
    Depending what is your goal my friend. Of couse people use other companions too as summoned, but those players performance in endgame content will be much lower. As endgamer and veteran player the things I care the most are skins (companion/mounts/appearance items) since these items are the only one that keeps their relevance and value over the years. There are different kind of players with different goals but if you set your goal to reach endgame and perform great you will have just few options to choose from regarding summoned companion and I can count them on my fingers. The point you re missing is the fact that they spend resources/time/money creating companions that no one will use due to their functionality/abilities/ratings, at least not in endgame. And the issues you are talking about are just the bottom of the iceberg. Until they will come up with an account wide achievement/collection system, revamped companion system, a better standard reward system, this game will be just a daily log in, do your daily-es, log out type of "MMO". You can simply look on chats and see what are the most activities players request to join (For my pov the most requested are : TOMM/IC/ZC Normal), Daily Dungeon/Trial) and thats it. Anything besides that are not worth the time raported to rewards you get. And let`s be clear you have no guarantee of any rewards for any of the mentioned endgame dungeons/trials. Everything spins around RNG and this is a an unhealthy behaivor to promote in MMOS.
  • carloswartune#5709 carloswartune Member Posts: 239 Arc User
    I really don't understand the problem some people have with the concept of "summoned companions doing more damage than the owner". If the player is tank or healer, this is extremely helpful for soloing. If the player is DPS, he's probably losing their own damage to make the companion stronger, and even in that case the companion will probably just be 30~40% of the total damage, certainly not "higher than the summoner", except maybe in scaled content, but that's a problem with scaling. In any case, this just adds to the build variety this game lacks so badly. We should have more companions like Abyssal Chicken, Xuna and Spined Devil, not less.
  • merik1999merik1999 Member Posts: 141 Arc User
    Yeah, I am missing the point of this post. What is your COMPLAINT? are you saying the xuna and chicken do too much damage? are you saying they are the ONLY companions that do damage? are you complain about looks?
    you are kind of all over the place.
    Start over and simplify. Either complain about the damage or the looks not both as you are confusing with your summations.
  • froger#9967 froger Member Posts: 510 Arc User
    I like Xuna, but wish there were more variety in summoned companions. I want healers to heal, strikers to strike, invokers to invoke, etc. As it is now most are just useless or we haven't figured out how use them.

    We had a lengthy discussion about Xuna in our Alliance. Many members who are getting out dps'd by her are not happy, but those of use who are investing the resources in making her perform are quite happy.

    I like the idea of having to choose stats (augment) or useful companion.
    Froger - Barbie Girl in a Barbie World - Almost Geared to Be Main Again - 9 3/4 Unbuffed - Xbone
    Jade - Cleric - Main - 9 3/4 Unbuffed - Xbone
    Magnus - Fighter - Alt - 9 3/4 Unbuffed - Xbone
    Loverboy - Ranger - Alt - 9 3/4 Unbuffed - Xbone
    Nomnomnommm - Wizard - Alt - Droppin Crits on Fools - Xbone
    I Am The Wall - Paladin - Alt - Droppin Crits on Fools - Xbone
    Xeros - Rogue - Alt - 9 3/4 Unbuffed - Xbone
    RIP bad name - Warlock - Alt - 9 3/4 Unbuffed - Xbone
    Bardholomew - Alt - 9 3/4 Unbuffed - Xbone

    Jade - DC - Shadows of Gauntlgrym - PC
  • the1truehunterthe1truehunter Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 211 Arc User
    Some of people have no ideea what they are talking about on this topic. In first of all there are no complains about how those two striker companions perform. I am just saying that there is a huge gap between how they perform compared with others. Also the fact that we have striker companions as they are now, a system that will allow us to choose whatever skin we want for our companion won`t be possible. If you are a casual player this thread is not made for you because it is very possible that you won`t care about anything besides your daily quests, a bit of storyline, chating in game with your friends. When I spend a good amount of time in a MMO I expect from the game to give me more paths to follow, more customization, variety in one word. Most of Xuna/Chicken users have no ideea how to play their classes, have no ideea about mechanics in this game. They are just happy that half of their job is done by a virtual companion. Day by day I realise how difficult is to share an insight/ideea with the community that have a limited perspective about how things work. That`s why nothing changes in this game. Because there are people like you and many others that are fine with what they have right now in terms of gameplay/systems or simply don`t care about them at all and they just like to waste their time moving around their virtual dummy. Each one of us play the game for their personal satisfaction. And even if I love the game there are certain elements that I don`t like about it or about how they continue to deliver the content/changes. If you have an opinion adress it properly. Do not come and talk irrelevant bs here because this is not the purpose of this discussion.
  • the1truehunterthe1truehunter Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 211 Arc User

    I like Xuna, but wish there were more variety in summoned companions. I want healers to heal, strikers to strike, invokers to invoke, etc. As it is now most are just useless or we haven't figured out how use them.

    We had a lengthy discussion about Xuna in our Alliance. Many members who are getting out dps'd by her are not happy, but those of use who are investing the resources in making her perform are quite happy.

    I like the idea of having to choose stats (augment) or useful companion.

    There are two types of players: Xuna users and Augment users. While Xuna users will always defend their interest because they think they are good but if you take off their Xunas, they are nothing in most cases (and I am not talking about endgamers here with can handle all pieces of content without problems no matter what companion they use), the augment users will mostly don`t care if Xuna stays as it is or get a nerf or whatever. What most people didn`t understand from my post is that I don`t request a nerf to any of these companions but a redesign of the system that will allow us to use both augments/strikers companions at the same time, the ony difference will be in how striker`s abilities will work. In the current system your companion have an internal cooldown for each ability except his main atack with in most cases is pretty low. So my proposal was to make them work like mount powers work. The advantage will be in the fact that now you can choose when to deliver his atack procing certain feats/passives or dealing much more damage during artifact calls.
  • the1truehunterthe1truehunter Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 211 Arc User

    not sure what your concern is... first its the additional damage of companions then that you want to turn them into a Barbie studio doll...
    does it bother me players with these companions do so much additional damage? nope, gets me through the repetitive rinse repeat of never changing dungeons to cap ad.
    players are running plenty of other companions so I don't see the homogenisation you mention, and tbh wouldn't really care if PE looked like a chicken farm most days.
    Would much rather devs spent their time fixing the myriad issues that have been with us for years.

    You don`t understand what I am talking about.

  • froger#9967 froger Member Posts: 510 Arc User
    edited October 2020
    Am I understanding correctly, you're essentially suggesting to remove active companions and add a second, more customizable, mount power?
    Froger - Barbie Girl in a Barbie World - Almost Geared to Be Main Again - 9 3/4 Unbuffed - Xbone
    Jade - Cleric - Main - 9 3/4 Unbuffed - Xbone
    Magnus - Fighter - Alt - 9 3/4 Unbuffed - Xbone
    Loverboy - Ranger - Alt - 9 3/4 Unbuffed - Xbone
    Nomnomnommm - Wizard - Alt - Droppin Crits on Fools - Xbone
    I Am The Wall - Paladin - Alt - Droppin Crits on Fools - Xbone
    Xeros - Rogue - Alt - 9 3/4 Unbuffed - Xbone
    RIP bad name - Warlock - Alt - 9 3/4 Unbuffed - Xbone
    Bardholomew - Alt - 9 3/4 Unbuffed - Xbone

    Jade - DC - Shadows of Gauntlgrym - PC
  • the1truehunterthe1truehunter Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 211 Arc User

    Am I understanding correctly, you're essentially asking to remove active companions and add a second, more customizable, mount power?

    Something like that but instead of your mount ability you will cast your striker companion ability/abilities. The upgrading process will stay the same as it is now, the only being that your striker companion will have his own independent ratings. It will no longer benefit from bontings/companion items. Bondings/comp items will only be relevant for your summoned companion as it is now without any changes on their functionalty.
  • froger#9967 froger Member Posts: 510 Arc User
    Would we be able to summon regular companions (as they are now) or just augments as active? Does the 'companion power' only apply to strikers?
    Froger - Barbie Girl in a Barbie World - Almost Geared to Be Main Again - 9 3/4 Unbuffed - Xbone
    Jade - Cleric - Main - 9 3/4 Unbuffed - Xbone
    Magnus - Fighter - Alt - 9 3/4 Unbuffed - Xbone
    Loverboy - Ranger - Alt - 9 3/4 Unbuffed - Xbone
    Nomnomnommm - Wizard - Alt - Droppin Crits on Fools - Xbone
    I Am The Wall - Paladin - Alt - Droppin Crits on Fools - Xbone
    Xeros - Rogue - Alt - 9 3/4 Unbuffed - Xbone
    RIP bad name - Warlock - Alt - 9 3/4 Unbuffed - Xbone
    Bardholomew - Alt - 9 3/4 Unbuffed - Xbone

    Jade - DC - Shadows of Gauntlgrym - PC
  • greywyndgreywynd Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 6,206 Arc User
    Comp system is fine as it is. It doesn't need fiddling with.
    I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
  • the1truehunterthe1truehunter Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 211 Arc User

    Would we be able to summon regular companions (as they are now) or just augments as active? Does the 'companion power' only apply to strikers?

    This is a really good question. The way I see it working is having 3 new tabs. One for your summoned companion bonus (his ratings), one for your striker companion (his abilities) and one for your summoned companion skin. In the actual system we have two types of companions (strikers/augments) and this may lead to two different situations where they can keep the actual structure and having two separate kind of companions (only a certain type of companion can be sloted for each tab) or they can add augment ratings and striker ratings to each companion in the game allowing you to unlock both (the shared ratings and abilities). The second situation will be more complex and requires more time to develop because they will have to create abilities for augment companions and give ratings to strikers and we have a bunch of companions in the current system.

    Example for the first situation: Fire Achon (Legendary grade) - augment bonus (none) / striker ability ( First Fire : Hits target foe, setting him on fire, dealing 50 magnitude damage over time - total magnitude 250 and the bonus can be triggered once every 30 sec)

    And to answer straight to your question, only augments can be summoned as active and the striker companion will only be used for their combat power as we use mount compat powers right now.



  • the1truehunterthe1truehunter Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 211 Arc User
    And when I am talking about striker abilities = companion combat power.
  • greywyndgreywynd Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 6,206 Arc User
    It seems like a lot of programming work for very little payout.
    I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
  • the1truehunterthe1truehunter Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 211 Arc User
    greywynd said:

    It seems like a lot of programming work for very little payout.

    Do you even play the game mate? Or you re living on this forum? It is funny how there are always few people around that have always something to say even if it is not on the subject. Anything requires alot of work in the background. Do you want me to mention all the useless companions we have? They saved their work by adding some passive offense/defense/utility bonuses otherwise 80% of the companions would be forgotten sitting in your collection tab. I want to use my Fire Archon skin without having to lose any of my ratings.There are multiple benefits: Having a companion appearance system will allow them to drain some AD from game / Companions will have a better value due to their appearance not only for their functionality and they can start selling skins in Zen Store /They can bring all companions closer in terms of performance / We will be able to use any skin we own / Use any striker companion power at the same time with our augment. I do not ask you to have the same opinion/vision like mine but build some arguments around the subject instead of making these kind of statements.

  • greywyndgreywynd Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 6,206 Arc User
    How I spend my time is of no concern of yours or anyone else that likes to comment about my time here, my number of posts, etc.

    If I want to have a Fire Archon following me around and helping, I use my Fire Archon. You want to use your Fire Archon then use your Fire Archon.

    None of my companions are forgotten.

    Use an augment at the same time as another companion? Remind me again about the general de-powering we all suffered in M16. And you want to find another way to ramp us up?
    I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
  • monkey4201monkey4201 Member Posts: 9 Arc User
    Not sure about the rest of your proposal, but the idea of being able to change what your companion looks like regardless of its abilities would be nice. I'd love to be able to have a pseudodragon following my character as it fits his aesthetic perfectly, but it's not that viable at end game & switching back & forth is a bit of a hassle over time. If my companion could have my bulette's or xuna's bonuses, but look like a tiny dragon while doing whatever role it normally does, that'd be neat.
  • karvarekarvare Member Posts: 220 Arc User
    Ok, let me ask you one question. Will they be able to add this function to current xbox/ps using the controller? Adding a new "mount like" power is easy with PC, as we have a keyboard. I don't play Neverwinter on console so don't know, but if they change PC it has to port over.
  • eversummer#1666 eversummer Member Posts: 59 Arc User
    edited October 2020
    So your solution is to simply remove the summoned companion from the game.
    While having some companions to perform slightly better than others is not a real problem, the fact that it get to the point where 99% of other companions become useless in most content (and totally irrelevant in endgame content), now that is so underwhelming we can agree...
    I think we just need a re-balance of all companions in-combat performance / utility.
    A somehow balanced pool of comps would also partially resolve the roleplaying issue for people asking about a companion skin system (which makes absolutely no sense to me, just like a "race skin"). For augments, this is not a problem, as the enhancements bonus is already such a small difference.
    Post edited by eversummer#1666 on
  • the1truehunterthe1truehunter Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 211 Arc User
    karvare said:

    Ok, let me ask you one question. Will they be able to add this function to current xbox/ps using the controller? Adding a new "mount like" power is easy with PC, as we have a keyboard. I don't play Neverwinter on console so don't know, but if they change PC it has to port over.

    Having another key combination for the companion power won`t be a problem from my perspective. Of course there may be console players who have a better insight about how they manage their keybinds to fit all the encounters/powers/potion trays and so on.

  • the1truehunterthe1truehunter Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 211 Arc User

    So your solution is to simply remove the summoned companion from the game.
    While having some companions to perform slightly better than others is not a real problem, the fact that it get to the point where 99% of other companions become useless in most content (and totally irrelevant in endgame content), now that is so underwhelming we can agree...
    I think we just need a re-balance of all companions in-combat performance / utility.
    A somehow balanced pool of comps would also partially resolve the roleplaying issue for people asking about a companion skin system (which makes absolutely no sense to me, just like a "race skin"). For augments, this is not a problem, as the enhancements bonus is already such a small difference.

    You will still have your summoned companion following you around but it will work like an augment (meaning that he won`t atack and he will just have appearance purposes like Bulette Pup or Bear Pup for example. You will be able to use any of your compamion`s skin even if it is a striker/augment to follow you around) while the functional purpose will stay as it is. You will be able to choose any of your augment bonuses (ratings) to be shared with you. The secondary tab represents your Striker Companion tab with will allow you to choose any of your striker companion power.

  • the1truehunterthe1truehunter Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 211 Arc User
    greywynd said:

    How I spend my time is of no concern of yours or anyone else that likes to comment about my time here, my number of posts, etc.

    If I want to have a Fire Archon following me around and helping, I use my Fire Archon. You want to use your Fire Archon then use your Fire Archon.

    None of my companions are forgotten.

    Use an augment at the same time as another companion? Remind me again about the general de-powering we all suffered in M16. And you want to find another way to ramp us up?

    Of course it is not my concern. It just upsets me to see people without any real interest in giving a proper feedback or opinion on the situation with valid arguments. It is not like that man. Let me ask you something. In your real life would you wear a T-Shirt and Short pants at a wedding? Probably not because it is not a proper fit with the occasion. Same with the actual system. I don`t want to give up on my companion functionality(statuses) to have any of my companion skins following me around. At this point there is no reason for anyone to choose their companion just by his look, at least not in endgame. No one pays alot of AD for skins and you don`t get your companions from Zen Store for their skins and thats because no one is interested in having a skin that can`t wear it without losing the ratings. If you are that kind of guy who wears the same clothes in every enviroment/ocassion or simply do not care about appearance that doesn`t mean everyone is like you. This system won`t affect you but will create oportunityes for the company to make more money and for us to have diversity.
    There is nothing like in m16. Nothing will be taken from you it will just have a different design that will allow the skin system to be implemented and to benefit from the striker companion abilities on our command. You will have plenty companion powers tht will allow you to choose and fight in your way. But I am pretty sure you haven`t read properly or perhaps you didn`t understand. Thats being said I don`t expect you to understand or accept my opinions or ideea but it is fine. The purpose was to find out what people desire in terms of custiomization/functionality. Of couse there may be better approaches regarding functionality.
  • eversummer#1666 eversummer Member Posts: 59 Arc User
    edited October 2020
    still not buying the idea of removing non-augment presence in combat :p
    seems like a sad tradeoff for just add a power slot

    why not "simply" work on having all comp more or less relevant and in-line with each other, but within the current system. so rework the ratings and powers magnitude ?

    i do like the idea of 2 tabs and to make indomitables the bondings equivalent for non-augment, maybe to encourage different playstyle. could add to indomitables a lesser stat tranfer, and utility bonuses to summoned comp Crowd Control / Heal powers, along the bonus dmg.
    2 dedicated tabs, but for 2 different set of comp gear. More like a quick change option, so you still select one or the other at a time. and so the standart runestones can be used on non-augment comp gear to further finetune its stats instead of stacking indomitables.

    Your idea sound like adding yet another "choice between 3 generic powers", when we could potentially benefit from the diversity in current companion pool
  • greywyndgreywynd Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 6,206 Arc User
    I am leery of them adding/changing anything since every time they do they break one or more things. I'm getting tired of being a test subject so that they can get it right for the consoles.
    I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
  • karvarekarvare Member Posts: 220 Arc User
    I believe the mod 16 comment was in reference to the Devs general push to remove the problem of overpowered players.
    The idea was that adding a new daily/mount like power may reverse their intended purpose. Not that we would lose something.
  • carloswartune#5709 carloswartune Member Posts: 239 Arc User
    edited October 2020


    You will still have your summoned companion following you around but it will work like an augment (meaning that he won`t atack and he will just have appearance purposes like Bulette Pup or Bear Pup for example. You will be able to use any of your compamion`s skin even if it is a striker/augment to follow you around) while the functional purpose will stay as it is. You will be able to choose any of your augment bonuses (ratings) to be shared with you. The secondary tab represents your Striker Companion tab with will allow you to choose any of your striker companion power.


    I always considered augments to be extremely boring companions because they are just cute-looking stat bundles. I don't like this part of your proposal because it would simplify striker companions down to cute-looking extra encounter powers. Companions being an active element of combat by themselves is essential for any companion system IMO.

    Having an optional way to control the companion active powers would be good, but making striker companions completely inert in combat would not. My idea of a good system for strikers would be: you optionally choose one or more companion powers for manual control, but the companion keeps attacking automatically with their other powers, and still have all the properties of an active companion: it can die (in which case you won't be able to manually activate the power you chose until the companion is revived), it gives CA, the damage from their powers is based on their stats, not the owner's, etc.
  • the1truehunterthe1truehunter Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 211 Arc User
    The ideea is unpolished and


    You will still have your summoned companion following you around but it will work like an augment (meaning that he won`t atack and he will just have appearance purposes like Bulette Pup or Bear Pup for example. You will be able to use any of your compamion`s skin even if it is a striker/augment to follow you around) while the functional purpose will stay as it is. You will be able to choose any of your augment bonuses (ratings) to be shared with you. The secondary tab represents your Striker Companion tab with will allow you to choose any of your striker companion power.


    I always considered augments to be extremely boring companions because they are just cute-looking stat bundles. I don't like this proposal because it would simplify striker companions down to cute-looking extra encounter powers. Companions being an active element of combat by themselves is essential for any companion system IMO.

    Having an optional way to control the companion active powers would be good, but making striker companions completely inert in combat would not. My idea of a good system for strikers would be: you optionally choose one or more companion powers for manual control, but the companion keeps attacking automatically with their other powers, and still have all the properties of an active companion: it can die (in which case you won't be able to manually activate the power you chose until the companion is revived), it gives CA, the damage from their powers is based on their stats, not the owner's, etc.
    I know that the ideea is unpolished but I do agree with this because it is something I took in cosideration myself after I made the post. I disscused this out of forums and seems to be a better version what I ve presented so far. I do like the ideea where you can still have you striker companion engaged in combat striking with his primare at-will giving you combat advantage being able to die if it get hited from enemyes.
  • the1truehunterthe1truehunter Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 211 Arc User
    However I would also like to have the augment companion skin along following me around. It wouldn t look strange to have two companions one who watch and one that fights?
  • carloswartune#5709 carloswartune Member Posts: 239 Arc User

    However I would also like to have the augment companion skin along following me around. It wouldn t look strange to have two companions one who watch and one that fights?

    I don't think it would be strange. We need to see if trials don't get too cluttered though, 10 players + 10 augments + 10 strikers can be overwhelming depending on the size of the companions. Skyblazer and Vanguard of the Citadel are notoriously big. But given that augments are generally very small and those 2 big companions aren't particularly useful I don't think that's going to be too problematic.
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