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Balancing classes in solo play
benyr
Member Posts: 238 Arc User
I've touched on this topic before, but nothing has improved so here goes again.
Whilst no one would pretend solo play is difficult, there is no denying its time consuming. Whether you're grinding to unlock campaigns, boons, find maps, zok boxes, metal rods or materials for the stronghold or crafting a huge portion of our game time is spent outside of dungeons.
The problem I have with this is that the Paladin with no DPS path takes significantly longer to grind the content than any other class. My rogue can kill Bel in less than a third of the time my Paladin can, my ranger can kill a MOB in a fraction of the time my Paladin can etc. What this means is that if two players of equal skill and gear want to grind a zone for specific items, one on a Paladin and one on another class, assuming RNG evens itself out, the Paladin will have to spend significantly longer in order to get the same results. Over the course of the entire game this amounts to a seriously significant amount of extra effort a paladin player has to put in, simply because they kill everything so much slower. Imagine the outcry if MOBS damage output was significantly increased so that whilst a tank could still slowly grind their way through content, DPS classes were constantly getting killed and respawning or having to keep running away, or they were forced into a position of having to party up to achieve anything in a reasonable time frame.
I'm sure you're reading this and saying "well build yourself a solo loadout", which i have. However there are multiple issues with this suggestion. Firstly, no matter how you build a solo load out, for very obvious reasons its still not comparable to a genuine DPS class. You might reduce the gap in grind time to an equivalent DPS, but you're still going to be lagging someway behind so still at a disadvantage while trying to build your toon. Also because the requirements to Tank are no so prescriptive, 90k stats across offence and defense, strong incoming healing and over 1mill HP you need fairly specific gear to be effective in dungeon play. To turn that into a solo build you need to give up defensive stats, about 500k HP and load up on power. This involves changing almost all the gear you have. Pretty much all your insignia, your companions, your companion gear and runestones, your rings and probably your Head, chest, hand and feet gear also. This is problematic because it means you essentially need to grind either an entirely new set of gear, or the AD to buy it. So in order to reduce the grind time a Paladin has to suffer, you have to double the amount of time spent grinding for that 2nd set of gear. The other problem with this is because you are changing all your rings etc, you're constantly having to remove and reequip enchants. This consumes a lot of gold, and consumes yet more of the players time.
I think i should clarify this post isn't out of bitterness, I actually have one of each of the 8 classes all pretty equal. They're all 27 - 28k Il and capable of running any content, so i'm really not just a Pally player who wants an easier ride. But i can see a very real comparison between how long each class takes to achieve certain objectives. There are discrepancies between all the classes, the Wizard certainly needs some love, but none of the other classes compare to the tedium of grinding on a Pally. And this post is born out of that feeling of dread i get when i realise it the Paladins turn to run some content.
For a player like myself lucky enough to have multiple toons there is a really easy fix, get rid of character bound gear. You can account bind to your hearts content, but let me grind content on my barbarian for example, and if i find a map, or a metal rod let them give it to my Pally. After all my toons can share enchants, weapon enhancements, wards etc, I assume they are all family or at least friends who would lend each other mounts, companions or maps.
For players without the option of multiple toon's I get that's its harder, I don't anticipate you giving Pallys a 3rd load out option as there would be an outcry from the other classes. And i dont anticipate you splitting the Pallys and making players choose whether to go Tank and DPS or Healer and DPS, as there would be an outcry from the Pally players. How about removing the damage reduction formula tanks have whilst outside queued content only?
Whilst no one would pretend solo play is difficult, there is no denying its time consuming. Whether you're grinding to unlock campaigns, boons, find maps, zok boxes, metal rods or materials for the stronghold or crafting a huge portion of our game time is spent outside of dungeons.
The problem I have with this is that the Paladin with no DPS path takes significantly longer to grind the content than any other class. My rogue can kill Bel in less than a third of the time my Paladin can, my ranger can kill a MOB in a fraction of the time my Paladin can etc. What this means is that if two players of equal skill and gear want to grind a zone for specific items, one on a Paladin and one on another class, assuming RNG evens itself out, the Paladin will have to spend significantly longer in order to get the same results. Over the course of the entire game this amounts to a seriously significant amount of extra effort a paladin player has to put in, simply because they kill everything so much slower. Imagine the outcry if MOBS damage output was significantly increased so that whilst a tank could still slowly grind their way through content, DPS classes were constantly getting killed and respawning or having to keep running away, or they were forced into a position of having to party up to achieve anything in a reasonable time frame.
I'm sure you're reading this and saying "well build yourself a solo loadout", which i have. However there are multiple issues with this suggestion. Firstly, no matter how you build a solo load out, for very obvious reasons its still not comparable to a genuine DPS class. You might reduce the gap in grind time to an equivalent DPS, but you're still going to be lagging someway behind so still at a disadvantage while trying to build your toon. Also because the requirements to Tank are no so prescriptive, 90k stats across offence and defense, strong incoming healing and over 1mill HP you need fairly specific gear to be effective in dungeon play. To turn that into a solo build you need to give up defensive stats, about 500k HP and load up on power. This involves changing almost all the gear you have. Pretty much all your insignia, your companions, your companion gear and runestones, your rings and probably your Head, chest, hand and feet gear also. This is problematic because it means you essentially need to grind either an entirely new set of gear, or the AD to buy it. So in order to reduce the grind time a Paladin has to suffer, you have to double the amount of time spent grinding for that 2nd set of gear. The other problem with this is because you are changing all your rings etc, you're constantly having to remove and reequip enchants. This consumes a lot of gold, and consumes yet more of the players time.
I think i should clarify this post isn't out of bitterness, I actually have one of each of the 8 classes all pretty equal. They're all 27 - 28k Il and capable of running any content, so i'm really not just a Pally player who wants an easier ride. But i can see a very real comparison between how long each class takes to achieve certain objectives. There are discrepancies between all the classes, the Wizard certainly needs some love, but none of the other classes compare to the tedium of grinding on a Pally. And this post is born out of that feeling of dread i get when i realise it the Paladins turn to run some content.
For a player like myself lucky enough to have multiple toons there is a really easy fix, get rid of character bound gear. You can account bind to your hearts content, but let me grind content on my barbarian for example, and if i find a map, or a metal rod let them give it to my Pally. After all my toons can share enchants, weapon enhancements, wards etc, I assume they are all family or at least friends who would lend each other mounts, companions or maps.
For players without the option of multiple toon's I get that's its harder, I don't anticipate you giving Pallys a 3rd load out option as there would be an outcry from the other classes. And i dont anticipate you splitting the Pallys and making players choose whether to go Tank and DPS or Healer and DPS, as there would be an outcry from the Pally players. How about removing the damage reduction formula tanks have whilst outside queued content only?
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Comments
Right now there is usually a feat that increases damage by 5% when solo, but its such a small amount that players don't even bother swapping to it. The feat could be improved. Better yet such feats could be replaced with something entirely different and Neverwinter could instead include an automatic feature for all tanks and healers to deal 10% extra damage when not in a party.
The key to this is:
1.) Make sure your gear is "level" appropriate. (if you are lvl 60, don't wear lvl 40-50 gear)
2.) Run content lower then your level. ie; I did dungeons, skirmishes AI, Tyranny of Dragons, Stronghold quest to get leveled up to 75 before starting Elemental campaign, Sharandar, Dread Ring, etc. so that questing was actually easier. At 80 I started Undermountain.. and it paid off as I required no help to complete any campaigns.
3.) Join a good Guild that is actually willing to help you... I get new players in my guild everyday that I work closely with to help them level up.
4.) Actually "learn" how to play a pally. It took me awhile but.. got the hang of it and can solo most content. I run Avernus/Vallenhaus with guild mates as a healer or tank.. works out amazingly.
I have 2 new pally's in my guild ( level 42 and 68) ..and they rarely ever need my help.. simple tricks to questing is the key NOT, omg, I have no clue how to do this so the game should change for me... not the other way around.
"Wow... so you want to play a "TANK/HEALING" class, but be a DPS??"
- No I want to play a tank, i have 7 toons i can play DPS on if i want to DPS. I was very very clear that I did not want any additional damage in dungeons, I even suggested making no changes to the Pally at all, but allowing me to grind on my DPS classes and pass the drops onto my Pally. The point was that whilst soloing, which does take up a huge amount of game time, the Paladin is slower because they kill things slower and the game is set up to measure progress via kills. The more you kill the better chance of a drop you get. Therefore gearing up a Pally with anything that is not a dungeon drop takes significantly longer to achieve than on any other class. This is particularly pertinent with this new time gated release that just dropped. It wont bother me i'm going to do it on my Rogue, but people with only Paladins will have to spend twice the amount of game time to reach the same milestones. This is not a fair system so my request for the devs to address it remains valid.
"I have a Pally and did all content with no problems up to level 70. (then Guild mates helped me quest to 80)
The key to this is:
1.) Make sure your gear is "level" appropriate. (if you are lvl 60, don't wear lvl 40-50 gear)
2.) Run content lower then your level. ie; I did dungeons, skirmishes AI, Tyranny of Dragons, Stronghold quest to get leveled up to 75 before starting Elemental campaign, Sharandar, Dread Ring, etc. so that questing was actually easier. At 80 I started Undermountain.. and it paid off as I required no help to complete any campaigns.
3.) Join a good Guild that is actually willing to help you... I get new players in my guild everyday that I work closely with to help them level up.
4.) Actually "learn" how to play a pally. It took me awhile but.. got the hang of it and can solo most content. I run Avernus/Vallenhaus with guild mates as a healer or tank.. works out amazingly. "
- You're missing the issue again, I can do all content including the the latest releases solo, Heck I can even run epic dungeons up to and including FBI and Spell Plague solo. I'm in a great guild which is part of a well known end game alliance with many players capable of carrying any member through any content, and i can assure you as per my original post my stats are endgame, my gear is not far off BIS, i have well over 1m HP I'm basically immortal. Completing the content is not a problem, my opening paragraph covered that off "Whilst no one would pretend solo play is difficult, there is no denying its time consuming. Whether you're grinding to unlock campaigns, boons, find maps, zok boxes, metal rods or materials for the stronghold or crafting a huge portion of our game time is spent outside of dungeons." - what it gets back to is why is it fair a Pally player has to grind twice as long as anyone else for the same results? Again I go back to my original post and ask what would the reaction of the DPS players be of all the MOBS in open zones suddenly hit 10x harder so no DPS could farm as effectively as a Tank, there would rightly be an outcry, which i would join in on.
"I play 6 characters including a Cleric and Paladin. They all solo solo contents. I personally insist not to seek help to complete solo content. Paladin may take longer but if he cannot do it, I will figure out how to eventually. Yes, they all did ME, WE alone. They all did the latest solo content alone."
- I kind of agree on this, Dungeons are my social time but i like to solo alone, so i never group in in solo play unless someone else asks me for help. But again the issue is not that my Pally cant do it, he can. It just takes him longer, and i maintain that is unfair in solo play when there is no advantage to being a Tank or healer. A recent example would be I was running the rage of Bel on my toon's to try and get the legendary rod. I can run the rage of Bel solo on all 8 classes no issue. However I can max out my 54 daily scrolls or what ever they are on classes like my Rogue, Ranger or Warlock in about 52 - 58 mins, ie one session of Bel being up. On my Pally i can only really manage about 4 -5 completions an hour dependent on whether dailys crit. so i need Bel to pop 3 times to achieve the same as my DPS classes do. I would be interested to know why anyone feels it fair that one class has to take three times as long to achieve the same objectives as the others, with no balancing pay offs? All I want is for the devs to implement some kind of change which (assuming RNG balances out) means that a Pally has the same chance of obtaining the same drop in the same time frames as any other class. No one is asking for any unfair advantages, simply parity on the daily grind.
Agree with Kharkov58 completely, if you're dying in solo content your're either trying to complete content beyond your means or you are doing something wrong.
None of my classes die in solo content, so being harder to kill in an environment where no one should die doesn't even touch the sides of being a trade off.
What do the other classes get in this exchange?
Firstly I am asking for parity in grind time, so the other classes don't need anything in return, they already grind at the speed we are asking for the Pally.
Secondly we were exploring multiple options to level off the grind time not just demanding a DPS boost in solo play. That could be anything from not touching the Pally at all but removing character bound for account bound on drops so people could grind on other classes and gift drops to the Pally. It could be an adjustment to the drop rates for Pallys so if it takes them twice as long to kill a mob the have a x2 chance for a drop so over the full course of a grind a pally and a DPS class should get the same results in the same timeframe?
They could even rework how drop work, how about you get chances at a drop after so much damage taken as well as a kill?
The simplest solution would be a feat which whilst not partied up or in a dungeon increased a Pally DPS to parity, but i honestly don't care how the situation is addressed, I just think its only right and fair that a player who chooses to play Paladin should only have to expect to grind for the same time as any other player. Do you feel that people choosing to play Paladin should be punished for their decision by double the amount of grind time?
View it like a DPS damage output. If you played a DPS class who's damage output is significantly less then another DPS class you would want the Devs to balance the two classes. You would not expect them to say ok but if we give you a damage boost what are we going to give the other class in exchange. I strongly suspect you'd say that other class doesn't need anything in return as you were only asking for parity with where the other class are already at. See the similarity?
An equally geared equally skilled Paladin tank can do as much damage or more as a DPS class. If you've seen that maybe the DPS in question ought to check their build.
I refer you to a quote from the devs on the Paladin class
asterdahl said:
In regards to the 30% reduction in damage: damage magnitudes on all roles are balanced the same way; however, we obviously don't want it to be the case that when you queue up as a tank that you're out damaging a similarly geared DPS. And because you share some of your powers with the DPS fighter, we need to make sure that there's an adjustment there to compensate.
Please tell me how an equally geared, equally skilled Paladin overcomes that 30% damage reduction to a DPS class, i'd love to know.
I think we can conclude from this you're only really here to Pally bash rather than add any useful insight to what is an important point for Pally game play, so id ask you to leave this thread alone so as not to cloud the issue for anyone who might find the topic of help.
Many thanks
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biggest difference between them where as the ranger died quite a few times {lvl 40 - 80} my tank died 0 times solo (lvl 1 - 80)