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Level Scaling for the future of NWO
gradii
Member Posts: 280 Arc User
For all you people who truly believe that level scaling is a bad thing, take a step back, curb your fight or flight response, and honestly try to think like a developer and or new player for ONE MINUTE. if you do, you'll see why it's required.
No one is asking for a broken, overly harsh system. you'll still be overpowered when scaled down. you just wont eliminate all traces of possible fun by one shotting everything you look at.
Win win, no one suffers, everyones experience improves.
And if you still can't come around, you aren't going to like what this year has in store. (Everyone else will)
No one is asking for a broken, overly harsh system. you'll still be overpowered when scaled down. you just wont eliminate all traces of possible fun by one shotting everything you look at.
Win win, no one suffers, everyones experience improves.
And if you still can't come around, you aren't going to like what this year has in store. (Everyone else will)
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No, the scaling does not need to be harsh you should still be much more powerful than you were at legit that level, but right now the scaling is basically non functional. Ever been to Charthraxis with more than 2 people? he goes down basically as soon as he lands.
Edit: Stop trying to force us to run dungeons we do not like or have no interest in. "Random" dungeons was the worst idea in a long time.
Edit: And why am I any more selfish than you, who wants to make everyone else work harder for no extra rewards just for your sense of balance?
Demanding the removal of scaling helps no one but yourself should it be granted.
Even WHEN (not if) dungeon scaling is improved and applied to way more places and dungeons, dungeons can and should still be able to be run without scaling solo or in a premade group.
FFXIV scales EVERY below endgame dungeon, and theres an option when in a premade group or solo to shut off the scaling- if you arent in a full group you enter with what you have. XP gains are turned off as are mob item drops but the dungeon still gives any other loot or rewards.
I like to help new players a lot, it's one of my main things I do in MMOs. With level scaling it's much easier to help people learn the game and be on somewhat of same playing field. The biggest turn off most of the new players I help is that veterans plow through everything WAY to fast. Not saying we can't do dungeon runs fast, they shouldn't be a slough either; however, that rogue just rolling away and dashing one-shotting everything because he's circumventing the scaling system by going nude isn't fun for new players.
Scaling is a tricky mistress to get right though, there's a balance where endgame players want to feel more powerful, but they shouldn't be one-shotting everything making it boring for the rest of the people playing.
I like how ESO did the scaling, my max CP nightblade still chews through all the overland mobs regardless of scaling or not, but it's not at a rate that's over-the-top for most newer players; however, my output is still significantly more and I can clear mobs in half the time a new player can.
It's not like it matters what anyone on here says about leveling scaling. Chris is from GW2 and they're only going to get more horizontal with progression. Things will continually be more and more scaled to flatten the veteran and new player curve. If you don't like that, then you should just stop playing now, honestly. It's not if, but when.
ESO scaling makes ESO in that regard miles above NWO, in NWO you cant even scale to a lower level friends level for quests, in the previous cryptic games that was ALWAYS an important feature.
NWO is the game where they said "you know what we did right in our other games? lets do none of that here!"
They have slowly been fixing that over the years but its still obvious some awful decisions were made.
So, I couldn't agree with you more on scaling. It's going to happen, everyone here against it is just going to have to deal or find a different game, sadly.
What we have: low level players are not able to participate in events + we have a black box of scaling that feels more like a generator of random numbers, which is biased against higher item lvl gear/enchants,... and you can even spectacularly improve your performance by throwing your attire away.
If you say scaling is a good thing, you might have a point. But the thing we have is not good at all.
PWE is of course unlikely to give him all he needs, but they'll give him something, so the game will improve.
Also the game is called Neverwinter, not Neverwinter Online. Please stop referring it as NWO (most read that as New World Order).
But first, a bit of digression.
There is not a single game I have played in which I thought this type of scaling was good. Here are some examples of what I think of some games which implement homogeneous scaling:
1. ESO? Quit after 4 hours, the combat felt awful and it never felt like you were making any progress.
2. Skyrim? 2/10. I only give it those 2 points because the world looks kind of pretty. It is a game which is as wide as an ocean and as deep as a puddle. The combat is banal, the story has no interesting hooks. You make no meaningful choices and there are no meaningful consequences. The only redeeming quality about skyrim is a mod called Enderal which incidentally has no scaling, everything else about that game is awful.
3. Oblivion? 4/10, it looks prettier than skyrim and has slightly more mechanics. Nehrim is a mod for it which is once again a major improvement and does away with scaling entirely.
What makes scaling so bad in my mind:
1. It removes the sense of progression.
2. It undermines the simulationest aspect of a games universe. Someone who has attained the "power of gods" should squash those who do not have it like flies.
3. It does not respect my time as a player. When content is new and fresh, I expect it to be a challenge. Over time as new gear becomes available, it is only natural that it becomes easier. And I don't want to be forced to waste time in it.
The common "defenses" of scaling include:
1. It removes fun for new players if they team up with older players because the older players rush through content and they cannot enjoy the story.
2. It helps to "balance" time vs reward.
3. It keeps old content relevant.
My rebuttal to the first point is that this is not actually a result of the lack of scaling, it is a result of a system which forces running with older players onto new players - the random queue system. If a new player was to try and form a premade group for the content, with the stipulation that they want to experience it as if they were running it with low gear, I am certain they would find some interested people who would help out. Why am I certain? Because every now and again I do just that.
The random queue system firstly takes away their choice of who to run with and secondly forces them to run with the exact type of people you don't want to be there in the first place. People who care about their reward:time ratio, who are actually unhappy they have to run that specific piece of content if they want to make any AD. Get rid of this system and encourage premades and the problem falls away.
As for the second point about time vs reward, simply not true. You can make the AD in the chest a function of completion time and success rate, which would pretty much instantly make running all dungeons equal in terms of AD/time and it would not involve scaling at all.
Finally, the third point. While it does in fact do this, there are better ways to do this. Optional challenge modes, pve races for dungeons with a leaderboard, adding necessary professions reagents to old dungeons, etc. I do not believe the benefits of scaling in this instance outweigh the downsides.
And it is for these reasons I believe that scaling is a bad idea and should not be implemented.
> (Quote)
> You are selfish becuase dungeons without scaling, when high level players are allowed in, ruins it for the newer or lower leveled people.
>
> Demanding the removal of scaling helps no one but yourself should it be granted.
>
> Even WHEN (not if) dungeon scaling is improved and applied to way more places and dungeons, dungeons can and should still be able to be run without scaling solo or in a premade group.
>
> FFXIV scales EVERY below endgame dungeon, and theres an option when in a premade group or solo to shut off the scaling- if you arent in a full group you enter with what you have. XP gains are turned off as are mob item drops but the dungeon still gives any other loot or rewards.
You've mentioned FFXIV numerous times before in several different threads. Perhaps that's an indicator. If you want NW to be more like FFXIV, then there's already a game that caters to those tastes of yours....
Arguing AGAINST scaling period, is literally the same as going out and screaming to the whole world you dont care about anything but your own game experience - even if it means the game will wither and die over time.
FYI our lead dev has already made up his mind and he agrees with me. now is a good time to leave if scaling is a deal breaker. tbh we wont miss you if you are gonna be like that.
Furthermore, the team has already presented a detail that the current version of scaling needs - and will be changed.
And... it is a time for you to realize that most of the uproar against scaling is not about inability to annihilate the whole map in one swing, but because what was delivered was an overcomplicated and badly implemented atrocity that put the whole bunch of DnD principles on its head.
I have never seen a game in which scaling made combat challenging or fun. The games I have played that had scaling, also had combat that was awful. There is nothing challenging about skyrim, oblivion or ESO and fighting a crab that is somehow the same level as you and is an absolute hitpoint sponge is not fun, it's not believable, it's just a waste of your time. The crab should die in 1 hit. The unscaled outcome IS the ideal outcome.
And you would be a fool to think nobody would miss me leaving this game. Will the game go on without me? Sure. But most people in a community are connected in some way, there are people who play because I play and the reverse is also true.
I am still here because of the people I met playing NW. The vets that helped me at the start, the people I beat all kinds lf content in various states with, the new players that are still here despite the confusion of "what are they talking about" and this new NW. The whole game for me is about having fun with my friends. If its not fun we will just take our friendslist elsewhere.
All the talk about "this is a MMO, deal with it" - we are the MM part.
No one said there wont be an option to disable it for solo or premade groups. but it is a requirement if you wish to continue having fun- with friends.
I have in no way ever defended the current or previous bad scaling systems. Stop pretending I think its ok as it is and want that applied to the whole game.
a GOOD scaling system is what I advocate, and want applied to the game.
> No ones asking for scaling to work in a way which makes all the game an even playing field. the kind of scaling we need in this game is the kind which makes you still more powerful in older content- but not SO powerful the experience is completely ruined.
>
> Arguing AGAINST scaling period, is literally the same as going out and screaming to the whole world you dont care about anything but your own game experience - even if it means the game will wither and die over time.
>
> FYI our lead dev has already made up his mind and he agrees with me. now is a good time to leave if scaling is a deal breaker. tbh we wont miss you if you are gonna be like that.
Nice hyperbole.
Also: what you think they mean isn't automatically necessarily what they mean. I will say this: despite my misgivings with various decisions by Cryptic, I still trust their business senses more than the ones you've displayed here. Not personal - matter of preferences and perspective.
Scenario 1: You and your friends started the game at the same time.
Provided you progress at the same rate, you will always face enemies together at an equal level of power, there is no problem. If 1 person gets ahead of the rest, it might be a problem, but it is only a problem if it is something the others care about and it does not require scaling to deal with (I will get to that later).
Scenario 2: You start long before your friends do, so you are much further progressed than they are.
If they don't kind being helped out and having an easier time, there is no issue. If they do mind, you can create an alt and level with them, or boost them to some piece of content which you both find challenging.
What is the problem created by scaling? It does not respect the time of every single one of those "old players" I mentioned in scenario 2. It is saying that they need to waste their time taking longer to kill trash, stuff which is in no way rewarding to them, just so that some hypothetical "new player" can have a good time.
If this new player was really a friend, you and them could communicate and find a solution that works for both of you, for example, making an alt, boosting, or a whole host of other possible solutions.
There are a lot more of these "old players" then there are "new players" and I can guarantee you a large number of them don't want mobs which they have killed 10s of thousands of times to suddenly turn into hp sponges because of "new players." It is sacrificing the experience of pretty much every old player for some hypothetical player who you do not even know if they will stay.
There are plenty of games, both mmos and other types of games, which are successful and do not have level scaling. If level scaling was a prerequisite for having "fun with friends" this would not be the case.
Right now, pretty much the only reason I play NW is because I "have fun with friends." Why am I protesting scaling? Because its 1 of the things that makes me stop, "having fun with friends."