Cheesing Dungeons (Forced Item Level Reduction)

agonistes

Any plans or word from Cryptic if they're going to fix this stupid gap in logic that is cheesing the scaling system?

Seriously, almost every group I run with has a guy who purposefully circumvents the item level by unequipping everything to get down below the scaling cap. It's not fun when one guy just one shots everything while your taking new guildies through the game.

I get that veterans like completing old content fast, but it's very off putting to all these new players I've been helping.

gradii

Yeah the scaling doesn't need to be harsh, it can still be much easier with higher item level- but nobody should be killing bosses in 2 seconds flat.

zimxero

Taking equipment off wont make that big of a difference. Those players are just tuned well overall. I get your overall point though. How would you 'fix' the problem?

gradii

TBH the equipment is what holds most of your stats, scaling it down would have a significant impact. Skilled play is one thing, but that should never be punished.

oldtimer

zimxero#8085 said:

Taking equipment off wont make that big of a difference. Those players are just tuned well overall. I get your overall point though. How would you 'fix' the problem?

Except taking gear off negates the scaling on your weapon damage which is usually cut down by 40% or more, that almost doubles your base damage right there which is a way bigger gain than any offensive stats you lose. And you don't lose many ( in fact you gain a bunch in certain places depending on build ) because the scaling on bondings is also negated.

Taking gear off lowers your hit points, that is it. Your damage will up to double at the cost of something a properly experienced player has no real use for in older content. Is it necessary to complete content? No, but it is a massive difference and it is a clear example of exactly why the scaling system right now is horribly implemented.

agonistes

zimxero#8085 said:

Taking equipment off wont make that big of a difference. Those players are just tuned well overall. I get your overall point though. How would you 'fix' the problem?

Institute hard caps on stats for leveling content. Some guy in Cragmire had 100k power and did 5m damage, one shot literally everything. If the leveling content had hard caps for stats then it would help solve the problem.

That way, regardless of being tuned to item level scaling, if your power is over X amount, it still gets scaled back to a level where it should be easier for overly geared players to complete content, but it's not completely destroying everything.

agonistes

Chris addressed this a bit in the livestream. He said the scaling update will help address these issues and they'll have it on preview when it's ready. He said they're interested in player feedback on preview for the scaling changes.

That's about all he said. I look forward to the changes.

zyronax

Gee, yeah, let us continue to nerf, destroy, and otherwise undo all the *years* of effort, hundreds (if not thousands) of dollars spent, and the just gear & enchantment rewards for slaving away at this game like a second job. What could possibly be unappealing about that?! 😃 /s

I get it: newbies are still doey-eyed and excited by the slightest thing in the game. They want to explore, etc. That's to be expected.H I'm also for veterans who have long since progressed from that early phase, seeing their power, skill, and devotion respected.

Frankly there is only one solution that addresses both sides: keep them separated. Cryptic was warned about this years ago when they first eliminated solo dungeoning with rAD rewards, and when they forced players into the random queues if they wanted to progress (i.e. tens of millions of AD required). Apparently cutting wait times for low-level queues was deemed more important.

So, by all means, separate the two. I'd love to go back to running any dungeon solo for rAD, and as a bonus avoid the simpering incompetence and/or other online HAMSTER-ery that all too frequently crops up in the random queues.

P.S. And before some bright spark brings up the old-&-tired "you can form your own parties", yes and that goes both ways. 😎

gradii

zyronax said:

Gee, yeah, let us continue to nerf, destroy, and otherwise undo all the *years* of effort, hundreds (if not thousands) of dollars spent, and the just gear & enchantment rewards for slaving away at this game like a second job. What could possibly be unappealing about that?! 😃 /s

Why is your thinking so literally backwards? better scaling does not DESTROY the effort put into the game it SAVES the ENTIRE GAME from DYING becuase NEW PLAYERS HATE IT. stop thinking only of yourself who's been level 80 forever and hasn't been a new player in years, and start imagining what it might be like for a new player- New players are worth about 50x more than vets to a game like this. Especially more than people who want to ezmode curbstomp everything.

A good scaling system is not an annoyance or hindrance in any way shape or form, it enhances fun for everyone. No one with more than a a single brain cell will say its more fun to one shot everything and race ahead on your own than it is to actually go through a dungeon as intended.

agonistes

zyronax said:

Gee, yeah, let us continue to nerf, destroy, and otherwise undo all the *years* of effort, hundreds (if not thousands) of dollars spent, and the just gear & enchantment rewards for slaving away at this game like a second job. What could possibly be unappealing about that?! 😃 /s

This is how you kill a game. There's a reason why most MMOs are implementing a level scaling system and it's not to punish veterans. I've been playing since beta and I welcome a decent scaling system. I run and retain new players every day through different pieces of content and teach them the basics. I love being able to do stuff side-by-side with them. Most scaling systems still allow veterans to be much stronger than their freshly geared counterpart, but NOBODY should be one shooting dungeon bosses.

The problem with MMOs now without level scaling is a disparity of content between new players and veterans. Older MMOs, generally, do not have a healthy enough influx of players to fill all the content blocks that are bound to certain levels. When scaling was applied to WoW in 2018, the reasoning was exactly that--there was too much content and too big of a disparity between the player-base.

Chris is big on horizontal progression and flattening the curve, so it's an inevitability that scaling and more level systems come into Neverwinter, so you'll just have to deal with it or go play another game.

greywynd

I welcome decent scaling. What we have right now is not it.

wintersmoke

zyronax said:

Gee, yeah, let us continue to nerf, destroy, and otherwise undo all the *years* of effort, hundreds (if not thousands) of dollars spent, and the just gear & enchantment rewards for slaving away at this game like a second job. What could possibly be unappealing about that?! 😃 /s



I get it: newbies are still doey-eyed and excited by the slightest thing in the game. They want to explore, etc. That's to be expected.H I'm also for veterans who have long since progressed from that early phase, seeing their power, skill, and devotion respected.



Frankly there is only one solution that addresses both sides: keep them separated. Cryptic was warned about this years ago when they first eliminated solo dungeoning with rAD rewards, and when they forced players into the random queues if they wanted to progress (i.e. tens of millions of AD required). Apparently cutting wait times for low-level queues was deemed more important.



So, by all means, separate the two. I'd love to go back to running any dungeon solo for rAD, and as a bonus avoid the simpering incompetence and/or other online HAMSTER-ery that all too frequently crops up in the random queues.



P.S. And before some bright spark brings up the old-&-tired "you can form your own parties", yes and that goes both ways. 😎

Except, new players can't. They can't communicate, until they finish 5 adventure zones.

gradii

greywynd said:

I welcome decent scaling. What we have right now is not it.

Yes becuase its useless and doesnt scale enough and is easily cheesed. you are scaled to 30 for Charthraxis- he dies in 2 seconds flat.

greywynd

He took longer before M16 even with endgamers in the fight.

gradii

greywynd said:

He took longer before M16 even with endgamers in the fight.

Point is, he needs to take longer than mere seconds, and that means scaling has to actually work.