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[Feedback] Threat generation

dolreydolrey Member Posts: 741 Arc User
edited March 2020 in Player Feedback (PC)
Hello. I will be brief.

Evidently after getting new equipment in each mod damage of dps classes grows significantly (and with damage buffs its growth is even higher). Damage of tanks grown too but not that much relative to damage of dps classes.

So tanks need to generate more and more threat with each mod. But abilities of threat generation of tanks did not changed. It becomes harder and harder to generate enough threat. This is the problem (it is mostly pronounced in end game content where is that damage growth).

Some tanks also maximise their damage to deal with this. And yes it works. But it is not how tank as class should work. And it takes too many resources to maximise your offensive stats in addition to your defensive stats so not everyone can afford this.

As tank player to properly decide this problem I would like to suggest to add to aggro skills scaling from defensive stats of tank (at least from health). Because growth of defensive stats of tanks is relatively equal to growth of offensive stats of dps classes. So this can be long term decision.

Thank you in advance.
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Comments

  • wilbur626wilbur626 Member Posts: 1,019 Arc User
    Your tank didn’t evolve like the “dds” did since M16?
    Elite Whaleboy
  • wilbur626wilbur626 Member Posts: 1,019 Arc User
    dolrey said:

    wilbur626 said:

    Your tank didn’t evolve like the “dds” did since M16?

    My defensive stats greatly increased. My offensive stats increased too but not that much of course.

    The problem is that aggro skills of tanks have same threat as they had in m16. While we evidently need to generate much higher amounts of threat than before.
    Can you please explain how the "aggro skills of tanks have same threat as they had in m16" ?
    Elite Whaleboy
  • reg1981reg1981 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,435 Arc User
    I see tanks hold aggro no problems. Sure if the DPS team lets loose all they have they'll steal aggro but in my experience they regain it easy enough. TIC for example 2nd boss. Our DPS team will steal aggro when we artifact and burn, but we'll pull back kite him around to the tank and swap aggro again. Standing still DPSing while yelling at the tank gets you dead.

    Now in mobs, there is little to no aggro avail for a tank. Best they can do is grab attention as often as they can and stand to offer combat advantage.

    What are others seeing in regards to this, I'm still building my tank but have been observing to the point I've had friends stream so I can watch their point of view, rotations, movement, etc.
  • chemjeffchemjeff Member Posts: 544 Arc User
    I have to tell people to wait a little bit after I get aggro before they let loose on their damage, otherwise the DPSers just steal aggro right back and I have to fight against them to try to regain it.
  • chemjeffchemjeff Member Posts: 544 Arc User
    reg1981 said:

    TIC for example 2nd boss. Our DPS team will steal aggro when we artifact and burn, but we'll pull back kite him around to the tank and swap aggro again.

    Or, that will be the moment where the boss decides to unleash his big hit, he smushes one of the DPSers who then yells at the tank for being a bad tank.

  • micky1p00micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,594 Arc User
    The usual thing is wasting a cooldown based hard taunt on an empty aggro list, and then loosing aggro vs dps, when DPS ramp up quicker.

    The solution is saving it for when aggro lost (and it will be if the artifacts and dailies timed) and then jumping to the top of the aggro table with the hard taunt.
  • chemjeffchemjeff Member Posts: 544 Arc User
    What is really frustrating is when a DPSer steals aggro, so the tank takes it back via a hard taunt, then *another* DPSer steals aggro, and then there is nothing left for the tank to do to steal aggro back again.

    Every tank class should have some way to steal back aggro immediately, and not dependent on encounter cooldowns.
  • zimxero#8085 zimxero Member Posts: 876 Arc User
    edited March 2020
    example - New Mechanic: Aggro from all damage is modified by a player's Awareness rating. For tanks, 100% Awareness will double your aggro generation. For other classes, 100% awareness will halve your aggro generation.
  • wilbur626wilbur626 Member Posts: 1,019 Arc User
    > @chemjeff said:
    > What is really frustrating is when a DPSer steals aggro, so the tank takes it back via a hard taunt, then *another* DPSer steals aggro, and then there is nothing left for the tank to do to steal aggro back again.
    >
    > Every tank class should have some way to steal back aggro immediately, and not dependent on encounter cooldowns.

    If the tank is built properly and use the correct at-will/encounter powers, this is never an issue in current content
    Elite Whaleboy
  • wilbur626wilbur626 Member Posts: 1,019 Arc User
    > @zimxero#8085 said:
    > example - New Mechanic: Aggro from all damage is modified by a player's Awareness rating. For tanks, 100% Awareness will double your aggro generation. For other classes, 100% awareness will halve your aggro generation.

    If this was to be implemented, there would be no need for the current threat modifiers/threat table. Current mechanics work very well as long as players know how threat generation works. The gwf running in first does not know how it works 😂
    Elite Whaleboy
  • wilbur626wilbur626 Member Posts: 1,019 Arc User
    edited March 2020
    dolrey said:



    I don't know the coefficient of how damage or healing converted into threat (what number will be assigned to your threat in aggro list when you for example dealt 10k damage or healed your ally for 10k hp).

    Then how can you state that tanks do not generate enough threat?

    Every new module has gear that increase player stats, both offensive and defensive, If you were to know the coefficient of how damage or healing converted into threat, maybe you would know what skills to use and when ?
    Elite Whaleboy
  • chemjeffchemjeff Member Posts: 544 Arc User
    wilbur626 said:

    > @chemjeff said:

    > What is really frustrating is when a DPSer steals aggro, so the tank takes it back via a hard taunt, then *another* DPSer steals aggro, and then there is nothing left for the tank to do to steal aggro back again.

    >

    > Every tank class should have some way to steal back aggro immediately, and not dependent on encounter cooldowns.



    If the tank is built properly and use the correct at-will/encounter powers, this is never an issue in current content

    So give me an example of the correct at-will/encounter powers for a Barbarian Tank to avoid the situation I described above.
  • micky1p00micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,594 Arc User
    edited March 2020
    dolrey said:



    Moving closer to subject of your question there are different types of taunts:
    1) Skills which "generate threat". It just plus some value to your current threat in aggro list (and about this value we are talking).

    AFAIK, This is not exactly how it works.

    Aggro modififers are a multiple, from about x2-3 as general tank role to about x7 for the special "increased threat" skills (rephrasing, tooltips have the wording there)

    The difference between multiplication and adding is high damage encounters/skills and/or with the increased threat will create a significant lead on aggro and if used during the debuffs they benefit more and they will not loose aggro.

    Most aggro loss happens when tanks take too long to shield / palisade / squat or whatever, and by the time they are not damaing the dps catch up on the aggro counters.

    This is the same with getting on the top of the list and then loosing it, usually a symptom of staying too long without attacking, or not timing the high damage skills before that need to move and shield, or having low damage, usually low ArP in general.

    tl;dr: Due to aggro bonus being multiple to damage, timing the damage, and having damage to being with, keeps aggro.
  • reg1981reg1981 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,435 Arc User
    edited March 2020
    Deleted, unrelated it would seem.
  • b4t1b4tb4t1b4t Member Posts: 275 Arc User
    The real fix to a tank and aggro problem is to create a simple taunt. Not a attack a generate threat taunt that can not be stopped and that is always active and present when ever the tank loses his or her aggro.
    Most like all mmo tanks would normally have. A ability that would not attack but grab aggro that is always present when or if needed.
  • durugudesudurugudesu Member Posts: 555 Arc User
    b4t1b4t said:

    The real fix to a tank and aggro problem is to create a simple taunt. Not a attack a generate threat taunt that can not be stopped and that is always active and present when ever the tank loses his or her aggro.
    Most like all mmo tanks would normally have. A ability that would not attack but grab aggro that is always present when or if needed.

    While this looks and sounds nice, this will destroy any motivation to invest on your tank to reach stat caps, because they can just get and keep threat due to that one taunt. They can sacrifice power, armor pen, accuracy, and just focus on maybe raising their HP, defense, crit avoidance, deflect and maybe awareness.

    I don't think this is what was intended, because if it is, then the progression of tanks/heals/dps will be different from one another, and some maybe shorter than others.

    Currently to keep threat, you would have to keep generating it with at wills/encounters with proper timing, and relying on your healer to keep you alive when it comes that you need to keep hitting instead of blocking, just to keep the threat. being BIS helps make this easier, but you don't have to be.
  • matii#4660 matii Member Posts: 75 Arc User
    Keeping aggro is easy if you distribute stats properly and use the right powers (yes, I done ToMM, IC many times without problems)
    Many tanks don't know how to play them, that's the main problem
  • durugudesudurugudesu Member Posts: 555 Arc User
    dolrey said:


    I agree that keeping aggro should not be too simple and tank should not just forget about all aggro mechanics. But tanks still should get some improvements to their aggro skills. Because having aggro skills which does not handle with their job is not right too.

    I talk mostly about end game content and keeping aggro against bis dps with their many-million crits. In full tank build even if you properly use all your skills they still generate more aggro than you because all numbers on your aggro skills are outdated.

    hmm.. I'm a forum pleb but @wilbur626 made a forum post on threat generation for fighters. For fighters at least, i find it easy to get back aggro (when i lose it for some reason) if i time the encounters properly, and not just spamming them when off cooldown.

    I've seen barbs and OPs keep threat properly too (and im not talking about those who spam smite like no tomorrow), but since i dont play them, I can't really speak for them.

    Maybe fighters have it too easy. I dunno.
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