Difficulty

demarw2

Hey.

This thread is about the difficulty of dungeons. In my opinion the game became too easy. T9G we finished with 3 players easily without having endgame chars. LoMM also is pretty easy. Just ToMM is really hard, for us too hard. And the problem is to find a group with 10 players. CR is a nice dungeon with a tough end boss because of its mechanic.

So there is no real challenge in the game accept of ToMM. Today we tried FBI as K-Team. Maybe that would be a challenge. But it was not much harder then normal.

So I have the wish/idea to introduce an epic and mythic version of each dungeon. An option that could be selected before starting a dungeon. Just that mobs deal more damage and have more life.

Finishing that could be rewarded with more ADs in the chest or special Loot.

thefiresidecat

https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/comment/13137215

demarw2

Sounds not that bad. Hopefully they will introduce some really hard difficulties, that are really challenging...

mynaam

Could not disagree with you more. I recently joined a group in tomm that was nearing 1 hour (50 odd minutes) and was still stuck at first boss. I managed to help them to their first win but many get discouraged.

I have been pm'd to help people in tong that could not get past 2nd boss. Mod 18 campaign is way to hard as it is and saying people can just party up is insane. The player base was decimated due to tomm disaster and such it will take long maybe 10+ minutes just to group up for campaign. that is insane. For non 1-2% top players to form a LOMM party can take up to an hour that is crazy!

demarw2

I couldn't agree with that. But let's say you are right. Than I don't want to make all dungeons harder, I want that a harder difficulty OPTION is instroduced. So all dungeon stay like they are, but players, who want a challenge can enter a dungeon with a higher difficulty.

micky1p00

mynaam said:

Could not disagree with you more. I recently joined a group in tomm that was nearing 1 hour (50 odd minutes) and was still stuck at first boss. I managed to help them to their first win but many get discouraged.

50 whole minutes??? The HORROR! THE SHAME!!

I don't know if to cry or laugh. Is it cultural thing? Generational? Though strangely I'm classified as old millennial. Why the hell people think that learning, improving and trying is such anathema.

This is the source of the worst toxicity in the game community. People afraid to improve so they kick other players who they think are not up to their standard. People afraid to spend time to actually learn how to do things so they ask 43534698273K IL for a dungeon good player could solo.

Here, this, is the source of toxicity, players that think that something that took us, a group of veterans months to do right, they should master in 50 minutes.

All in the name of "50 minutes is bad". First time I did ToNG it took me hours upon hours, some runs with new players of older content take much over an hour, until everything explained, tried, and learned. Many dungeons took hours, yet patience and helping other to improve makes things better, and not fear of "Gods no it is 50 minutes - so disappointed that the hardest thing didn't take 5 minutes.".



But what more hides in that paragraph? Stuck on first boss? I wish to see the second boss. As I've never reached it.
And one player changed and suddenly everyone finished ToMM on their first time. WoW.

Do I smell one of the typical lies?
Like in this thread, where all the times are simply a lie.
https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/comment/13136703

Or this
https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1253428/mod-18-will-force-players-to-leave-game

Where is is clearly a lie. Contradicts everyone who actually tried it on preview and official dev posts.

mynaam said:

I have been pm'd to help people in tong that could not get past 2nd boss. Mod 18 campaign is way to hard as it is and saying people can just party up is insane. The player base was decimated due to tomm disaster and such it will take long maybe 10+ minutes just to group up for campaign. that is insane. For non 1-2% top players to form a LOMM party can take up to an hour that is crazy!

Decimated? The alliance I am in is alive and well, a varied mix of players from totally new, to just doing LoMM and upgrading their gear.

LoMM party or any RTQ, REDQ, if formed in minutes. And there are no 1-2% top players, those are in a different alliance.

So perhaps the issue is not there... Maybe a lesson to be learned, about guild leadership, and grouping up.

finmakin

Blame the dwarves, with their stinky feets..

The matter is that content like ToMM (and the future ones) requires a solid group of dedicated players who take time and effort to get their behind to preview and start training.
Even now ToMM is on live server It's a good thing to get your behind to preview instead of complaining about fails by not getting past 1th phase.

Learn from your mistakes (as I still do), work on your character because the time of everything getting on a silver platter is history..

Peace out

thefiresidecat

mynaam said:

Could not disagree with you more. I recently joined a group in tomm that was nearing 1 hour (50 odd minutes) and was still stuck at first boss. I managed to help them to their first win but many get discouraged.

I have been pm'd to help people in tong that could not get past 2nd boss. Mod 18 campaign is way to hard as it is and saying people can just party up is insane. The player base was decimated due to tomm disaster and such it will take long maybe 10+ minutes just to group up for campaign. that is insane. For non 1-2% top players to form a LOMM party can take up to an hour that is crazy!

did you mean tomm or lomm in your first example? scaled content is as a general rule trivialized. non scaled is still on the easier side for well geared players but has a lot more challenge than older dungeons. it's a travesty because the most interesting dungeons we have are scaled atm

gabrieldourden

micky1p00 said:

mynaam said:

Could not disagree with you more. I recently joined a group in tomm that was nearing 1 hour (50 odd minutes) and was still stuck at first boss. I managed to help them to their first win but many get discouraged.

50 whole minutes??? The HORROR! THE SHAME!!

I don't know if to cry or laugh. Is it cultural thing? Generational? Though strangely I'm classified as old millennial. Why the hell people think that learning, improving and trying is such anathema.

This is the source of the worst toxicity in the game community. People afraid to improve so they kick other players who they think are not up to their standard. People afraid to spend time to actually learn how to do things so they ask 43534698273K IL for a dungeon good player could solo.

Here, this, is the source of toxicity, players that think that something that took us, a group of veterans months to do right, they should master in 50 minutes.

All in the name of "50 minutes is bad". First time I did ToNG it took me hours upon hours, some runs with new players of older content take much over an hour, until everything explained, tried, and learned. Many dungeons took hours, yet patience and helping other to improve makes things better, and not fear of "Gods no it is 50 minutes - so disappointed that the hardest thing didn't take 5 minutes.".



But what more hides in that paragraph? Stuck on first boss? I wish to see the second boss. As I've never reached it.
And one player changed and suddenly everyone finished ToMM on their first time. WoW.

Do I smell one of the typical lies?
Like in this thread, where all the times are simply a lie.
https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/comment/13136703

Or this
https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1253428/mod-18-will-force-players-to-leave-game

Where is is clearly a lie. Contradicts everyone who actually tried it on preview and official dev posts.

mynaam said:

I have been pm'd to help people in tong that could not get past 2nd boss. Mod 18 campaign is way to hard as it is and saying people can just party up is insane. The player base was decimated due to tomm disaster and such it will take long maybe 10+ minutes just to group up for campaign. that is insane. For non 1-2% top players to form a LOMM party can take up to an hour that is crazy!

Decimated? The alliance I am in is alive and well, a varied mix of players from totally new, to just doing LoMM and upgrading their gear.

LoMM party or any RTQ, REDQ, if formed in minutes. And there are no 1-2% top players, those are in a different alliance.

So perhaps the issue is not there... Maybe a lesson to be learned, about guild leadership, and grouping up.

It took me weeks to complete the Epic Dread Vault with people from my old guild, trying everyday and I remember 4-hours long Epic Spellplague Caverns runs with new members of the guild. 50 minutes to master a new dungeons are almost nothing. I agree with @mynaam about seeing lower activity in the game, but the issue is not difficulty, it's more lack of rewards.

mynaam

thefiresidecat said:

mynaam said:

Could not disagree with you more. I recently joined a group in tomm that was nearing 1 hour (50 odd minutes) and was still stuck at first boss. I managed to help them to their first win but many get discouraged.

I have been pm'd to help people in tong that could not get past 2nd boss. Mod 18 campaign is way to hard as it is and saying people can just party up is insane. The player base was decimated due to tomm disaster and such it will take long maybe 10+ minutes just to group up for campaign. that is insane. For non 1-2% top players to form a LOMM party can take up to an hour that is crazy!

did you mean tomm or lomm in your first example? scaled content is as a general rule trivialized. non scaled is still on the easier side for well geared players but has a lot more challenge than older dungeons. it's a travesty because the most interesting dungeons we have are scaled atm

yes was lomm not tomm. I don't like running elitist content aimed at exclusion and discriminating like TOMM

darthpotater

mynaam said:

thefiresidecat said:

mynaam said:

Could not disagree with you more. I recently joined a group in tomm that was nearing 1 hour (50 odd minutes) and was still stuck at first boss. I managed to help them to their first win but many get discouraged.

I have been pm'd to help people in tong that could not get past 2nd boss. Mod 18 campaign is way to hard as it is and saying people can just party up is insane. The player base was decimated due to tomm disaster and such it will take long maybe 10+ minutes just to group up for campaign. that is insane. For non 1-2% top players to form a LOMM party can take up to an hour that is crazy!

did you mean tomm or lomm in your first example? scaled content is as a general rule trivialized. non scaled is still on the easier side for well geared players but has a lot more challenge than older dungeons. it's a travesty because the most interesting dungeons we have are scaled atm

yes was lomm not tomm. I don't like running elitist content aimed at exclusion and discriminating like TOMM

Dont worry, now that there is a discussion of content accessibility, you can propose a "Try hard mode" for the dungeons, so you can:

- Watch cinematic
- 5 seconds to click square
- Watch cinematic
- 5 seconds to click triangle
- Watch cinematic
- Final boss: 3 seconds!! to click X
- Watch cinematic,
- Pick loot
- Profit.

finmakin

mynaam said:

thefiresidecat said:

mynaam said:

Could not disagree with you more. I recently joined a group in tomm that was nearing 1 hour (50 odd minutes) and was still stuck at first boss. I managed to help them to their first win but many get discouraged.

I have been pm'd to help people in tong that could not get past 2nd boss. Mod 18 campaign is way to hard as it is and saying people can just party up is insane. The player base was decimated due to tomm disaster and such it will take long maybe 10+ minutes just to group up for campaign. that is insane. For non 1-2% top players to form a LOMM party can take up to an hour that is crazy!

did you mean tomm or lomm in your first example? scaled content is as a general rule trivialized. non scaled is still on the easier side for well geared players but has a lot more challenge than older dungeons. it's a travesty because the most interesting dungeons we have are scaled atm

yes was lomm not tomm. I don't like running elitist content aimed at exclusion and discriminating like TOMM

mynaam,
I have a simple solution for your problem..
Please, don't run elitist content.. NEVER.
Or start working on your character to become one.

If it is too hard to reach that goal, stay with Cloaktower

sobi

Lets put this into perspective. We can all agree that TOMM is/was hard. You attend training and grind it enough that eventually you'll be able to become a caller. At that point, TOMM is easy. You also do not need a caller if you are experienced enough. I have seen many successful TOMM runs with no callers and not just "a" run but a grind.

In short, if people stop lazing out and stop their moaning for once, they can also finish TOMM, brag about it, grind that loot and become rich. If that is not your cup of tea, why bother moaning? You have your run of the mill dungeons all over the place, where you don't need to PUG or a coordinated group.

edenfay

Too easy, too hard... yet what unites us is our disappointment when we open the chest at the end.

myself, I agree that the dungeons are on their face very easy, and like the OP have done my share of three-person T9s etc (and we only brought in that third for the key mechanic...) Another tier of five-person dungeon difficulty would be wonderful. I played ESO for a time and don't remember their "epic" variant dungeons becoming quite so trivial so quickly, but of course that was some time ago.

as for ToMM, ten-person content is cumbersome to organise and execute. When the stars do align, the trial is fun and well designed, but the playerbase just doesn't feel robust enough to support a raid-skewed endgame as the sole playground for challenge. I am famished for five-person content that similarly rewards some discipline and training... emphasis on reward (please type "discard" to confirm)

aerhythia

sobi#1980 said:

Lets put this into perspective. We can all agree that TOMM is/was hard. You attend training and grind it enough that eventually you'll be able to become a caller. At that point, TOMM is easy. You also do not need a caller if you are experienced enough. I have seen many successful TOMM runs with no callers and not just "a" run but a grind.

In short, if people stop lazing out and stop their moaning for once, they can also finish TOMM, brag about it, grind that loot and become rich. If that is not your cup of tea, why bother moaning? You have your run of the mill dungeons all over the place, where you don't need to PUG or a coordinated group.

No, we literally don't have anything. Dungeons, unrewarding (unless very lucky with drops like epic mounts and such), unchallenging (if maxed and experienced) . Trial with 10 people a chore to organize runs after the game died during Mod 15 - 17 and lost half of its playerbase.

There is nothing in between.

I really wish they kept old dungeons more relevant. After all they even take the time to redesign Epic Temple of Spider. The weekly challenge from Mod 15 campaign was a good idea, but could have been executed much better. Same about most events.

Since ToMM is the only endgame thing the criticism is warranted. Devs unfortunately don't have much leeway when they only release one dungeon or trial per year though. If all content would be designed for 21k players (or whatever ToMM is rated at) there wouldn't be an issue with "hard" content.

demarw2#2749 said:

So I have the wish/idea to introduce an epic and mythic version of each dungeon. An option that could be selected before starting a dungeon. Just that mobs deal more damage and have more life.



Finishing that could be rewarded with more ADs in the chest or special Loot.

Yeah, when Hellpit was announced I was imagining a special version of an existing dungeon, not a redesigned single player Call to Arms (not saying Hellpit is bad, although I'm not a huge fan of arena based combat design) . There's a lot they can do in the future even with the limitation of only having 1 or 2 completely new dungeons per year.

edenfay

aerhythia#3255 said:

I really wish they kept old dungeons more relevant. After all they even take the time to redesign Epic Temple of Spider.

Which reminds me how the Malabog's redesign turned one of the more entertaining older dungeons into a sleepwalk... I feel so disappointed every time I walk into that room that was once crammed with storm-flinging cyclopes, and now only has two phase spiders

sobi

aerhythia#3255 said:

sobi#1980 said:

Lets put this into perspective. We can all agree that TOMM is/was hard. You attend training and grind it enough that eventually you'll be able to become a caller. At that point, TOMM is easy. You also do not need a caller if you are experienced enough. I have seen many successful TOMM runs with no callers and not just "a" run but a grind.

In short, if people stop lazing out and stop their moaning for once, they can also finish TOMM, brag about it, grind that loot and become rich. If that is not your cup of tea, why bother moaning? You have your run of the mill dungeons all over the place, where you don't need to PUG or a coordinated group.

No, we literally don't have anything. Dungeons, unrewarding (unless very lucky with drops like epic mounts and such), unchallenging (if maxed and experienced) . Trial with 10 people a chore to organize runs after the game died during Mod 15 - 17 and lost half of its playerbase.

There is nothing in between.

I really wish they kept old dungeons more relevant. After all they even take the time to redesign Epic Temple of Spider. The weekly challenge from Mod 15 campaign was a good idea, but could have been executed much better. Same about most events.

Since ToMM is the only endgame thing the criticism is warranted. Devs unfortunately don't have much leeway when they only release one dungeon or trial per year though. If all content would be designed for 21k players (or whatever ToMM is rated at) there wouldn't be an issue with "hard" content.

demarw2#2749 said:

So I have the wish/idea to introduce an epic and mythic version of each dungeon. An option that could be selected before starting a dungeon. Just that mobs deal more damage and have more life.



Finishing that could be rewarded with more ADs in the chest or special Loot.

Yeah, when Hellpit was announced I was imagining a special version of an existing dungeon, not a redesigned single player Call to Arms (not saying Hellpit is bad, although I'm not a huge fan of arena based combat design) . There's a lot they can do in the future even with the limitation of only having 1 or 2 completely new dungeons per year.

You're missing the point. TOMM is not be blamed because rewards suck everywhere else. Your complaint is separate to what i am discussing here. Yes, TOMM was challenging at my first few games but then everyone like myself gets used to it and is able to farm it. But the complaints I read make it out that TOMM is impossible to complete because these people just don't have the willpower to learn but have enough willpower to come here and moan.

The tier based dungeons with scaled rewards has been discussed in the CDP program and it has had enough popularity to even be implemented in the future, I believe. Fingers crossed.

aerhythia

sobi#1980 said:

You're missing the point.

Maybe, or maybe I didn't make my point clearly.

sobi#1980 said:

TOMM is not be blamed because rewards suck everywhere else. Your complaint is separate to what i am discussing here. Yes, TOMM was challenging at my first few games but then everyone like myself gets used to it and is able to farm it. But the complaints I read make it out that TOMM is impossible to complete because these people just don't have the willpower to learn but have enough willpower to come here and moan.

Not ToMM, obviously, more Mod 17 in general which only gave us ToMM and new expeditions.

Once you have ToMM-ready groups but don't want to be bothered with playing a trial made for 10 players, what else is there to do. Similarly if you can't ToMM same problem. And gearing for Citadel to farm it doesn't really seem to be worth it either.

sobi#1980 said:

The tier based dungeons with scaled rewards has been discussed in the CDP program and it has had enough popularity to even be implemented in the future, I believe. Fingers crossed.

Yeah, maybe not an ideal solution but it would solve at least some of the problems. Even just upping the bosses and new rewards and boss drops would be an improvement.