85K for Critical Strike only to land a critical hit 50% of the time. Huhh??

dagambit

I have been trying to wrap my head around this for sometime. Someone please help me understand. This is how I understand and see it in lamens terms.

I have been driving this Lexus for about 6 years it runs into a few problems. So I take it the car dealer ship and I get it overhauled, when I get it back the price for the overhaul is 68k. The dealer then tells me all the change they did to my car and tells me it's for the best for future upgrades for years to come. I drive off as I leave the lot I am told I can only drive it 50% of the time.

3 to 4 months past I get a call from the dealer saying hey we just got a stage six clutch in and some new rims for your car. I say cool I need that when can I get it installed? In about 2 weeks this is the best clutch available by design. And it's only going to cost an extra 12k and you can still only drive the car 50% of the time. I get the clutch and find out it's only for advanced drivers I am awww so cool with that. Over a few day I master the clutch and everything is sweet. I tell the dealer I appreciate the challenge.

Another 3 months past I get an email saying hey man you are such a loyal customer I want you to try these new led lights and custom interior for you car. It's pretty much the same as to what you already have with the stitching, type of material and style all we did is change the color to a darker tan. As for the led lights it's the 18th anniversary edition. You can test drive it for us for a while and tell us what you think for an extra 5K, but you can still only drive the car for 50% of the time.

Huh? What! Are you tell me I have to put 85K in a car I can only drive 50K of the time? Dealers answer: Yes!

I don't mind not landing a critical strike 100% of the time, I play games where it's 60, 65 even 75 percent of a chance of landing a critical hit. That is totally find they cap it at those numbers and they do require the games players to put more stats in critical chance only to critical hit 50% of the time.

The argument can be made that it's is there to get past the enemies critical advoidance. If that is the case the enemies critical advoidance should be 50K.

There is no a game should tell it's players that the enemies crit advoidance is 85% but you can only land a critical hit 50% of the time. But in order for you to land this critical hit you have to match the enemies critical adviodance of 85K. What!!!!

So I have to spend 35K over in critical strike to land a critical strike with a 50% chance of success??

harnrim

Hi dagambit,

sorry to say that but you are messing around with stats as a fixed amount and percentages. If an enemy has let's say 50 k critavoidance and you have 50 k crit you will not land a crit. To reach the 50 % cap you need to get over that avoidance in this case you need 50 k more crit to have a 50 % chance to land a crit. So with anyhing OVER 50 k crit you will start to have chance to crit at all.

Correct me if I'm mistaken.

greywynd

I think there's a base limit of like 5% chance regardless of numbers.

gabrieldourden

greywynd said:

I think there's a base limit of like 5% chance regardless of numbers.

Your natural 20 on a d20.

plasticbat

Well, in some countries, because of the "regulation", certain car is equipped with certain equipment so that it can only max out at X mph regardless how fast your car could have been.

Because of the price schedule, certain Tesla can only drive X miles per charge regardless if the battery is capable of X + Y miles per charge.

When one buys a car, he does not buy "wind" (the opponent) so that it can slow it down. The wind just happens. You don't always willingly drive against a hurricane for fun neither.

Wait! This is a game and this is not a car.

oldtimer

Imagine spending 5 minutes to look up how stat caps and counter stats work.

Nah, let's just spend 20 minutes writing a weird analogy about cars and posting a thread on the forums instead, that sounds more productive.

dagambit

I know how the stat caps and counter stats work. Why are we force to put more stats in critical strike if we are going able to land a critical hit only 50% of the time. If I have 68k critical strike then I should have a 68% chance to land a critical hit. That is not the case in this game. Whether or not the enemies have higher critical advoidance and I match or go over what they have I still only landing a critical hit 50% of the time.

The car analogy is just same why buy car and spend 85k on a new mod only to drive it 50% of the time. It is the same as force players to 85k to critical strike to land a critical hit 50% of the time.

So there is no weird analogy; Why pay more to do less?

greywynd

Why should the NPCs have more crit strike if you're just going to buy up your crit avoidance so that they only succeed 50% of the time?

oldtimer

I know how stat caps work, but let me explain to you how i don't actually know how stat caps work. Also cars....or something.

Critical Avoidance is simply a counter stat, not a percentage based stat. Also Critical Strike is capped at 50%.

Fun fact: not only is Critical Avoidance not a percentage based stat, it is also always either 0% or 100%. Car analogy your way around that one.

milehighxr

oldtimer#7525 said:

Imagine spending 5 minutes to look up how stat caps and counter stats work.

Nah, let's just spend 20 minutes writing a weird analogy about cars and posting a thread on the forums instead, that sounds more productive.

Point me to the place in game where this is, and I will look. Elsewise we need answers here, as this the forum for the game.

I understand the analogy, its a really good one. What I can't find is where in the game it tells me how much crit strike I need to land a critical hit on say a twig blight in Barovia, let alone on the epic twig blight in Yester Hill HE. This info is not in the game anywhere, and is unacceptable. It is a game, there is no reason I, or anyone else for that matter, should have to do the devs job and publish this info, let alone spend hours trying to find it on the internet. The devs have this info, they created it to create the content, why in all of Faerun can't they just publish it with each mod?

nic1985

@milehighxr#1299 Indeed this game need an official source/guide on how stats properly work and caps.

The only official information I've found is this Devloper blog;
https://www.arcgames.com/en/games/neverwinter/news/detail/11093193-developer-blog:-stats-&-mechanics


L.

oldtimer

milehighxr#1299 said:

Point me to the place in game where this is, and I will look. Elsewise we need answers here, as this the forum for the game.

I understand the analogy, its a really good one. What I can't find is where in the game it tells me how much crit strike I need to land a critical hit on say a twig blight in Barovia, let alone on the epic twig blight in Yester Hill HE. This info is not in the game anywhere, and is unacceptable. It is a game, there is no reason I, or anyone else for that matter, should have to do the devs job and publish this info, let alone spend hours trying to find it on the internet. The devs have this info, they created it to create the content, why in all of Faerun can't they just publish it with each mod?

No one in their right mind can argue that the game does a good job at explaining core mechanics, especially ones as vital to a character's success as the recently introduced counter stat system.

With that said, most of the relevant info about the new system was published with the announcement of the Module 16 game rework so pretty much everything you need to know ( unless you want to go extremely in depth theory crafting ) can either be found in the announcements, the official forum threads that were made to clarify parts of the announcements that required clarification or can be fairly easily deduced in game after reading those sources.

Many players have spent a ton of time taking all of this information and condensing / explaining it better and in detail to make it easily digestible in written / video form and have made their work available to the community for free. One of the best sources for many things Neverwinter would be Janne's website, for stats and counter stats specifically you can find all the info you need here: https://jannenw.info/pages/mechanics16/stats

There are other tools and sources ( perhaps made by a certain sexy German player / streamer / youtuber ) that are even easier to find and do not look as daunting to a newer player as the info Janne Moonmish publishes / hosts. All of this could be made easily available to everyone with a single sticky thread linking to these creators and their work while an official in-game or website based detailed manual is published.

micky1p00

No matter how many times I've tried, I still can't understand the original issue or the analogy.


.

milehighxr#1299 said:

oldtimer#7525 said:

Imagine spending 5 minutes to look up how stat caps and counter stats work.

Nah, let's just spend 20 minutes writing a weird analogy about cars and posting a thread on the forums instead, that sounds more productive.

Point me to the place in game where this is, and I will look. Elsewise we need answers here, as this the forum for the game.

I understand the analogy, its a really good one. What I can't find is where in the game it tells me how much crit strike I need to land a critical hit on say a twig blight in Barovia, let alone on the epic twig blight in Yester Hill HE. This info is not in the game anywhere, and is unacceptable. It is a game, there is no reason I, or anyone else for that matter, should have to do the devs job and publish this info, let alone spend hours trying to find it on the internet. The devs have this info, they created it to create the content, why in all of Faerun can't they just publish it with each mod?

Here you go
https://www.arcgames.com/en/games/neverwinter/news/detail/11093193-developer-blog:-stats-&-mechanics

Though there is an error there, and the 5% base is 5k stats, and not 5%. (Or 10% is 10k) but otherwise, that's an official post

callumf

I would remove caps altogether - why not have a fighter with 150k defense that is really hard to kill? WHy not allow a player to have lower power but high armour penetration? etc etc

That's how a RPG should work. You choose how YOU want to play your character, and build them accordingly.

I didn't even realise there were CAPS on stats - I had 125k arm pen for a while...

Why not have the tool tips on stats show capping? OR even just show that the stat is at max?

plasticbat

callumf#9018 said:

I would remove caps altogether - why not have a fighter with 150k defense that is really hard to kill? WHy not allow a player to have lower power but high armour penetration? etc etc

That's how a RPG should work. You choose how YOU want to play your character, and build them accordingly.

I didn't even realise there were CAPS on stats - I had 125k arm pen for a while...

Why not have the tool tips on stats show capping? OR even just show that the stat is at max?

Because the max is depended on the enemy. For a weak enemy, 50K is already the max.
Nobody knows what the future enemy will be.
The 'max' has been changed once since mod 16.
i.e. in the future, 125k ArmPen may not be enough such as if an enemy (who could be your fellow player) has 100k defense.

micky1p00

The entire concept of counter stats is so they can (and must) be increased every mod. It will be much much more surprising if they are not increased, than that they will.

I would expect them to increase the counter stats in larger amount than the new gear provides until not all stats are capped in optimal conditions.

Unknown

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mamalion1234

nebo822#7906 said:

5% base crit strike chance + 45000 crit strike stat value (1000 = 1%) + 35000 enemy crit avoidence rating = 80000 crit strike chance or 50% in mod 18 dungeon.

you are wrong the base critical chance is 5000 and not 5% critical chance so you need to add another 80k to 85k for 50% in the new dungeon.

Unknown

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micky1p00

nebo822#7906 said:

You did not read the offical statement did you? It read 5% basic crit chance, you might wanna consider reading it mamalion1234 before posting and 1000 of stat is 1%, it's really a simple math.

Please read what I wrote when linked it, there is an Error there, or more correctly, it was not communicated well, and later the stat was visually changed from hidden countrable 5% to the actual 5k they represent.

Bottom of my post earlier

micky1p00 said:

Though there is an error there, and the 5% base is 5k stats, and not 5%. (Or 10% is 10k) but otherwise, that's an official post

vadasz21

"I have been trying to wrap my head around this for sometime. Someone please help me understand. This is how I understand and see it in lamens terms..."

Ok, I think I will try to help you understand. Your example is flawed in you think you are adding stuff to your car, but can still only drive it 50% of the time. The real issue is that you are driving your car on a slight incline and then you come to a big hill. Your car starts to slow down and you can't get up it as fast as you could. So you take it to your mechanic and say I am only getting up the hill 45% as good. Can you make it so I can go 50% just like on the slight incline? He says sure, let's add some more horse power to your car so you can go up the hill 50%. But, the extra horsepower is not going to help you more on the slight incline. You will still only be able to go 50% there as well. At least, you can now go 50% in both places though.

vadasz21

I do see this problem a lot in the game though because I don't think it's spelled out well for players. If I didn't follow 3rd party content creators then I would probably have no idea what stats I needed to get. The game needs to find a way to help educate the players about the stats and counter stats inside the game and not in just a blog post that is buried within the website now. I see way too many players running around with tons of stats over caps because they probably think it's helping them. When in reality it is just wasted stats. 130k defense seems like a good idea for a tank, but it's not.

In the game where you can select the dungeon to queue for you can see the enemies ratings. I only know this from experience. I'm not quite sure the game makes this clear to newer players. Or even if it did would they fully understand it. For the new mods dungeon the enemies rating will be 35k. Which means they have 35k crit avoidance, defense, etc. You will not be able to crit until you pass that point. Once you get to 35K you are able to get 1% crit chance for ever 1k crit you have. But, they put a hard cap of 50% on it. So that's why you need to have 85k now instead of 80k. The enemies are better at avoiding crit.

Unknown

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ecrana

Anyone here remember a time when you learned things in a game by playing the game and figuring it out? Information wasn't handed out to you. A quick web search didn't return numerous posts/links leading to an abundance of information.

You just, played, learned, accomplished something and smiled.

Now you have dev posts that explain stats/counter stats, janne's site that details systems, has an abundance of gear catalogued, and lets you play with builds. Rainer's spreadsheet has tons of information (including a breakdown of stats/counter stats). So much information readily available that it's hard to believe people can't just find most of what they want to know.

Could the game explain some things better? Sure. But I feel like counter stats were explained from day 1.

Outside of that you have two options. The old school figure it out yourself way. Or use the search options readily available to you in the forums or through a search engine.

As far as figuring out what counter stats a twig blight has goes, one would think the easiest guess would be to see what the required stats are for CR, and build for that since that was the mod's dungeon. Or don't overthink things, build for current campaigns, and you'll be fine in older zones. If your biggest issue is trying to optimize for a twig blight....I don't know what help any of us can be.

methuselas

From Janne's blog post:

"Enemies will have the same value for all of their ratings, and all of the enemies in a given zone/dungeon will all have the same rating values."

The stat/counter-stat HAMSTER is possibly testing for MtG mechanics, but the aforementioned quote above speaks volumes.

The stat/counter-stat "evolution" was done solely for lazy development. Less work for them to do and maintain. It's also why we no longer have random stats, stat bonuses per Class, etc.

Lazy development.

rerepete

I think the whole counter stat system is looked at wrong. It should be 2 RNG system (Each player/NPC has a dice roll). IF player 1 rolls a crit. then player 2 rolls to see if they avoid the crit. Then cap on the stat would then be 100k (100%). So, essentially, a player with 66% crit. could still conceivably critically strike someone with higher %, just not as likely.

krumple01

rerepete#2864 said:

I think the whole counter stat system is looked at wrong. It should be 2 RNG system (Each player/NPC has a dice roll). IF player 1 rolls a crit. then player 2 rolls to see if they avoid the crit. Then cap on the stat would then be 100k (100%). So, essentially, a player with 66% crit. could still conceivably critically strike someone with higher %, just not as likely.

Essentially what you are suggesting was already in the game but the devs felt the players were too strong. If a player can stack a stat that gets them closer to a constant 100% crit chance then essentially the first roll always happens but the second roll for the counter crit from the monster will be what? 65%? 75% 85%? Or less, basically it comes down to an avoidance mechanic. What happens when they start giving monsters 90% or 95% crit avoidance? That system would be even worse than what we currently have.

some1stolemynickname

rerepete#2864 said:

I think the whole counter stat system is looked at wrong. It should be 2 RNG system (Each player/NPC has a dice roll). IF player 1 rolls a crit. then player 2 rolls to see if they avoid the crit. Then cap on the stat would then be 100k (100%). So, essentially, a player with 66% crit. could still conceivably critically strike someone with higher %, just not as likely.

That is basically how it works...but capped at 50% chance. That's why you have a base 5% chance of landing a crit strike.

The current caps can be found on Rainer's pocket wiki (along with tons of other info): https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1fP_cUugHdsObvQDzLFijGA-mVm_qLmSy0MI62aTLkDM/htmlview#

If you're not in a good guild/alliance then that's the best place to start for your quest for knowledge.

micky1p00

methuselas said:

From Janne's blog post:

"Enemies will have the same value for all of their ratings, and all of the enemies in a given zone/dungeon will all have the same rating values."

The stat/counter-stat HAMSTER is possibly testing for MtG mechanics, but the aforementioned quote above speaks volumes.

The stat/counter-stat "evolution" was done solely for lazy development. Less work for them to do and maintain. It's also why we no longer have random stats, stat bonuses per Class, etc.

Lazy development.

Took me a search to find this sentence, I thought at first it was on the site.

Not to take away from the point, or general intent, but a minor add-on, after the described system in the blog post didn't work well at all, and our multiple posts about the issue with the system (the counter stat gap crated shift towards specific stats) the stats were split into two groups, for critters (during beta, or early live, I don't remember now) .

Critical Resist, Accuracy, Awareness, and Armor Pen have the base counter stat value, for example 18k for LoMM, and 35K m18
And Defense, Deflect, Combat Advantage, and Crit always have +50k over the other group.

There is also base CA and Crit, but the general gist is two groups, 50k stat difference between them.

The 50k difference matches the 50k needed to reach the 50% cap of the matching functionalities like critical strike, Accuracy, and so on, creating a normalization where the player needs more or less the same stat number (around 85k currently)

(Again this is just nit-picky clarification, because the literal "same value" in that blog post is not 100% correct)