"There's nothing wrong with the Warlock class. You just don't know how to play it."

frogwalloper

Today marks the second time in six months that I've heard someone claim that the problem isn't the warlock - it's the people playing it - user error - that the class itself is wai in both pvp and pve.

Two claims. No details.

Instead of calling out an individual or two, I'd like to open up this thread to anyone who can explain how to properly play the Warlock class As Is for people like me who have only steadily played it for a couple of years, and for those poor souls who have played the class since it was first introduced but apparently no longer know how to play it correctly.

Here you go - rest of the thread is yours.

autumnwitch

I have retired both of my SWs , 2 healing clerics and 2 dps fighters until they become more fun to play. I have given all three many, many hours of play after MOD16 and can play them just fine but they are no fun what so ever especially compared to the other classes. When and if they get changed I will play them again, but for now six toons stay on the shelf. And that means six less toons I am spending Zen on.

frogwalloper

autumnwitch said:

I have retired both of my SWs , 2 healing clerics and 2 dps fighters until they become more fun to play. I have given all three many, many hours of play after MOD16 and can play them just fine but they are no fun what so ever especially compared to the other classes. When and if they get changed I will play them again, but for now six toons stay on the shelf. And that means six less toons I am spending Zen on.

vorphied

frogwalloper#6494 said:

Today marks the second time in six months that I've heard someone claim that the problem isn't the warlock - it's the people playing it - user error - that the class itself is wai in both pvp and pve.

Two claims. No details.

Instead of calling out an individual or two, I'd like to open up this thread to anyone who can explain how to properly play the Warlock class As Is for people like me who have only steadily played it for a couple of years, and for those poor souls who have played the class since it was first introduced but apparently no longer know how to play it correctly.

Here you go - rest of the thread is yours.

I'll bite.

"There's nothing wrong with the Warlock class." - This statement is obviously untrue.

"You just don't know how to play it." - This statement is sometimes true.


Warlock has issues that are becoming more evident as players continue to progress at lvl 80 and as new content that isn't super-fast and brain-dead easy (right now namely ToMM) is released. In LoMM, for example, Warlock and the other arguably underperforming DPS are fine because the encounters are simple enough and the bosses weak enough that many party compositions can clear it easily and quickly.

Ironically the M15 Warlock would have had a field day with ToMM. A boss fight that can't be blitzed in under 30 seconds is the opportunity to layer massive DPS that the class often lacked. Now that we have such a fight, Warlock no longer has a potent damage-stacking method and suffers badly for unavoidable interruptions to its primary means of boosting encounter damage.

Of course, we also have players who continue to exaggerate the state of Warlock beyond its already-depressing state, and it concerns me that developers might not take feedback seriously when they see players comparing the DPS of their Warlock to that of tank and healer paths. I've seen firsthand a lot of these "learn to play" issues, but I don't blame only the players for this; a good part of this is on the developers for leaving too many Warlock tools as shmuckbait. It hurts me to see Warlocks running around with junk like Dreadtheft and bad class features, and you know some of these people have to be among the forum voices claiming that Warlock is completely unplayable.

hrakh

I really wish I could explain how to play Warlock, but obviously I cannot..

I have only been playing the class for as long as it exists in this game and my setup is only about 97-99 percent optimal/BIS (depending on who you talk to, and only in relation to non-TOMM content)). Since MOD 16 I have only played and extensively ACT tested like 4 of the DPS builds (Lostmauth setup, CB AOE, RI single target, KF AOE) and messed around with all the other powers/feats for a few weeks. Obviously nowhere near enough to learn to play Warlock..

Because, no matter any of the above, I cannot compete with true endgame Wizards Rangers or Rogues. Sure, I can still beat a lot of people. Warlock has problems, but its not total garbage. Given enough power, percentage gear, capped offensive stats and the right powers and feats (right being a very very limited selection) I can totally keep up with some classes, and Wizards,Rogues and Rangers at less than 70-80% optimal setup. But, it sure is a lot of work and the margin for error is hair thin.

So, I too will gladly join you in waiting for those superior players that can explain to me what I am doing wrong. Always willing to learn and adapt. But I admittedly am a bit slow. So detailed and fact based instructions would be much preferred...

gonzakotwi

That appears to be the devs answer also, as they focus on graphics and sound. They throw new pvp but Warlock Is a healing potion with legs, its only use is to make Mass in the nodes.

> @vorphied said:
> (Quote)
> Ironically the M15 Warlock would have had a field day with ToMM. A boss fight that can't be blitzed in under 30 seconds is the opportunity to layer massive DPS that the class often lacked. Now that we have such a fight, Warlock no longer has a potent damage-stacking method and suffers badly for unavoidable interruptions to its primary means of boosting encounter damage.
>
Oh boy i miss those 100+ stacks

> It hurts me to see Warlocks running around with junk like Dreadtheft and bad class features, and you know some of these people have to be among the forum voices claiming that Warlock is completely unplayable.

We can't blame them for using something that the devs did badly

jules

When something you liked gets HAMSTER up past the point you can recognise it anymore, you point that out and get answered "well just adjust to it" I would really like to throw them into content where they can compare to the meta dps/healer/tank of the time because ... hell no.
In NW no class has a job beyond their role. There is nothing else to do/manage but tank/heal/kill fast, so you want to be at least semi-useful at your role.
Others saying that "you can run all content!!" is beyond the point.
I could run all content as archer HR too. I could also run 500 DR lairs instead. Is it fun tho... naaah.
It wasn't fun in M15 to run with a GWF, and competing a GWF/SW/GF/All other classes with a second "so useful" paragon dps against HR/TR/CW is not fun. It isn't even funny as a joke.
Is it possible to dps a SW in all content, yes of course ... Is it nice to run the content, do it well, really work on it and end up way behind some CW with 30k less power and a fkn Lostmauth Set because he saw that somewhere (cough).. No.
I don't understand why this is so hard to understand for some people.
Must be the joy of being current meta.

vorphied

gonzakotwi said:

That appears to be the devs answer also, as they focus on graphics and sound. They throw new pvp but Warlock Is a healing potion with legs, its only use is to make Mass in the nodes.



> @vorphied said:

> (Quote)

> Ironically the M15 Warlock would have had a field day with ToMM. A boss fight that can't be blitzed in under 30 seconds is the opportunity to layer massive DPS that the class often lacked. Now that we have such a fight, Warlock no longer has a potent damage-stacking method and suffers badly for unavoidable interruptions to its primary means of boosting encounter damage.

>

Oh boy i miss those 100+ stacks



> It hurts me to see Warlocks running around with junk like Dreadtheft and bad class features, and you know some of these people have to be among the forum voices claiming that Warlock is completely unplayable.



We can't blame them for using something that the devs did badly

Well...we need to blame both.

Blame players for not reading tooltips and for not paying attention to how their powers function. Blame developers for completely overlooking how terrible some of these powers and features are.

Dreadtheft is one of my favorite examples because it was bad before M16 except when used by Temptation SW as a supporting debuff power. Now that it has no debuff component it's universally bad, and neither the devs nor some players seem to have noticed this.

frogwalloper

It must be months since I've seen someone use dreadtheft. All the classes have encounters and at-wills that no thinking player will touch.
I don't get it. Why even bother designing something if there's no logical reason for people to use it. Sure, it fills an empty space in the lineup, but when no one chooses to use it, it's still essentially an empty space - a mere illusion of choice.

I would much prefer a Throw Bananas encounter over something like Infernal Spheres. At least it would be funny.

vorphied

frogwalloper#6494 said:

It must be months since I've seen someone use dreadtheft. All the classes have encounters and at-wills that no thinking player will touch.
I don't get it. Why even bother designing something if there's no logical reason for people to use it. Sure, it fills an empty space in the lineup, but when no one chooses to use it, it's still essentially an empty space - a mere illusion of choice.

I would much prefer a Throw Bananas encounter over something like Infernal Spheres. At least it would be funny.

Sadly I've seen both of those powers used by other players in recent months. I say nothing because how other people want to play is only my business if it directly affects what I'm doing (and giving unsolicited advice is usually more likely to cause conflict even when it's well-intentioned), but it is jarring.

Rolling back the illusion of choice theme appeared to be one of the driving motivations behind culling the number of "options" players had prior to M16, but there's a lot more work to be done.

hrakh

I second the call for a "Throw Bananas" power. If I cannot have viable DPS, at least give me a laugh

mongol69

There is no arguing with the class mechanics, they are pretty straight forward. The reality is that with the magnitudes as they are, any scenario without si stacks warlocks are extremely lackluster. Base of 45% magnitude rotation damage of wizard single target rotation. At full peak buffs the damage is still below a wizards base rotation at 98%. Not taking into account wizard stacks nor smolder. Even if warlocks had a 100% uptime of 3 stacks the warlock dps role is still only capable of 70% of wizards base rotation. At 218k power my warlock dps output averages about 25% less than my wizards with 190k power in a 22min lomm, and with faster runs the larger the damage gap.

That is not a learn to play your class issue but a magnitude/core mechanic issue.

vorphied

mongol69 said:

There is no arguing with the class mechanics, they are pretty straight forward. The reality is that with the magnitudes as they are, any scenario without si stacks warlocks are extremely lackluster. Base of 45% magnitude rotation damage of wizard single target rotation. At full peak buffs the damage is still below a wizards base rotation at 98%. Not taking into account wizard stacks nor smolder. Even if warlocks had a 100% uptime of 3 stacks the warlock dps role is still only capable of 70% of wizards base rotation. At 218k power my warlock dps output averages about 25% less than my wizards with 190k power in a 22min lomm, and with faster runs the larger the damage gap.



That is not a learn to play your class issue but a magnitude/core mechanic issue.

Learn to play is always going to be some of the issue with any class. This is how you can have some players with the "right" gear for an objectively high-performance class being outperformed by players of disadvantaged classes.

In the case of Warlock you are right that the damage ceiling is too low. However, the problem is exacerbated by the very severe performance gap between the two or so "viable" DPS configurations and...well, every other power and feature choice a player might make. Players do have some responsibility to actually learn to play the game, but the developers have also compounded the issue you outlined by leaving a lot of traps for the unsuspecting.

silverwolf

If we look at the AoE for the Warlock the main way that most Warlock players will fight is to use Hellfire Ring to apply Lesser Curse, Curse Bite to deal damage and consume the curse, Fiery Bolt to apply another set of curses and another Curse Bite.

This means that the Warlock cannot use either Hadar's Grasp or Killing Flames to gain a stack of Soul Investiture. The highest DPS output for the AoE aspect of the class is designed to not allow the class to use it's own self-buff.

Should the Warlock choose to remove one of these AoE Lesser Curse application powers (Hellfire Ring or Fiery Bolt) for Hadar's Grasp or Killing Curse then the player is now forced to use At-Wills and All-Consuming-Curse to spread curses. With the two feats that are normally chosen for AoE, you're invariably swapping out the Dust-To-Dust feat for All-Consuming-Curse; so to gain a stack of SI, we lose the 5% buff from D2D.

The AoE side of things doesn't allow the Warlock to reach their fullest potential, by design, the Warlock is handicapped.


If you look at the Single Target side of things we're not much better off. Sure, we can slot powers that will give Soul Investiture ... well in ToMM that's only going to be Hadar's Grasp as there's nothing to kill with Killing Flames. So we're already at 96 seconds before we can get to full Soul Investiture stacks; yup, over a minute and a half before we're at full potential, IF the Soul Puppet doesn't die (which it does) or Halistar is not targettable to allow the Warlock to refresh the stacks. One of the big At-Will we have is Dark Spiral Aura, it does some nice damage with 3 spirals .... which we can't get here as there's only one enemy.

Dark Spiral Aura is more of a "Trash-Mob" / Boss with Adds At-Will and not suited to ToMM so you're likely not going to be using that here but more likely Hellish Rebuke for the spark gain. You're gonna be spamming that when the encounters are on cooldown and negating the Creeping Death which used to be great pre-Mod 16 but is now complete garbage due to them not stacking and overwriting one another.

These are some of the issues with the design of the class. They, and others, have been highlighted many times and still we wait for fixes that when Mod 16 was being released we were assured would be finished being balanced when Mod 17 would come out.

Still we wait.....

droidonroids

Running LOMM at 165k power with Rouges at 135-145K and other stats equally lower than mine I was 10-20 million damage under them, now at times they were first to bring the fight to the mobs but seriously it’s sad my SW can’t produce the same damage, I have played around with ebonized rings, terrored grips, boots of will, the demo set I shelved to get my HP up, I run an augment bullet pup which gives me CA but my soul puppet rarely triggers it, I can hold my own but get more NTY when I asked to join a group,

frogwalloper

Well, this is pretty much what I expected from the people claiming,
"It's just you."

And that's what we got,

but as always I appreciated reading the perspectives of more experienced players.
Thanks everyone, particularly @vorphied for those very reasonable responses.

mebalz

frogwalloper#6494 said:

Today marks the second time in six months that I've heard someone claim that the problem isn't the warlock - it's the people playing it - user error - that the class itself is wai in both pvp and pve.

Two claims. No details.

Instead of calling out an individual or two, I'd like to open up this thread to anyone who can explain how to properly play the Warlock class As Is for people like me who have only steadily played it for a couple of years, and for those poor souls who have played the class since it was first introduced but apparently no longer know how to play it correctly.

Here you go - rest of the thread is yours.

I Agree while i believe that warlocks due need some adjustments My SW is not only fun but can heal all content in the game and heal it well. It is far more challenging to use than my DC but 1000% more fun. And my HB can due a high amount of DPS it excels in AOE situations I lose ground in single target but i compete with End game high dps Wizards Rogues and Rangers. I don't always finish first but not far behind. that being said the warlock does need some love and some minor adjustments. IMO

bpstuart

Just because something is working as intended that doesn't mean there isn't something wrong with it. The Changes to all the classes and the Restriction of play styles to a very specific Metas is the thing that is wrong.

Half a decade of instincts out the window, of course people are going to have a tough time adjusting.
I nuked almost all my old characters and made new ones so i could rerun the game and learn along the instead of dumping money into respecing and regearing my old characters.

Like i still enjoy the game and all but not as much as i used to, and i don't get as excited for new content as i used to because now i know it might mean loosing the things that i like about the game and not knowing if i will be given something else to like in exchange.

lordtweety

I wouldn't be so critical of the warlock's lackluster dps if it was fun to play.

Prior to mod 16 the warlock was never the king of DPS, (at least not for a great many mods,) but if you knew the class and had the gear you could be close and in some cases be the best, but it was always fun to play.


It was fun to play.


Now, it isn't fun. Even finding a playstyle that was similar to my pre 16 playstyle isn't fun because I know how much DPS I am losing by making those choices.

Play the way you like and be useless at endgame and even near endgame or play the class in a way you don't like in order to maximise DPS. But fail at that too because your dps ceiling is lower than other classes.

Two great choices.

myrage

Hi.

This is my new/temp account.. I would write here mine comment with main account. Yet due "disagreement" with staff, lead to that all my posts/threads/comments are hidden from public view. That's mean, no one can see them(only me ).


Anyways.. I play with warlock since it's introduction. Through time I tested various ways to improve warlocks performance.
Thats mean all possible powers set up>(boons/feats/class features/at wills/daily powers).
And I mean literally all possible ones.

But I tested not only them, I also was looking how improve my warlock through gameplay. How utilise certain powers in certain situation.

But that was prior mod 15.

Now mod 16 give us a big warlock class rework, and it changed a lot. Or did it?

In mod 15 for warlock do its real dmg you need go like: Curse > cast x power to deal dmg or start power rotation.
In mod 16 for warlock to deal its real dmg, need go like : cast x power to apply lesser curse> cast x power to do dmg.
This x power in mod 16 mostly is Hellfire Ring(new encounter).

Most common encounter set up is > Hellfire Ring + Curse bite + Fiery Bolt or BoVA.

Now curse bite = curse consume. That's mean in AoE case you need use other AoE encounter or Eldritch Blast at will to reapply lesser curse.

That's mean, warlock from very start, due mechanics lag behind other classes. It's not just about magnitudes as lot of players think. It's about how and what it takes to do your dmg. Warlock is pushed in situation which force him lag behind others by default.

To give you example. I have 22.5k IL warlock. Not strongest, neither weakest one.
Now I haven't play with wizard since mod 3. I was visiting my friend from school time, and he also >Played< neverwinter.
And it happened that he had wizard in his account.
I borrowed his account. :P
Firstly I have to lv up it. He stop played in mod 13, and even then his gear was average.

Now I just lv up it and unlock master explorer.
I done few runs of ME's with warlock.
Then I switch to friends wizard and did same runs. Note: I haven't change any part of his gear.

And I was doing like 30% more damage, but that't not all.
I was having way less problem to keep wizard alive. Also I notice that with Wizard is may more easier to utilise gear parts with Sniper perk(3% dmg increase if you are far from target).

warlocks lag behind not due players, not due magnitudes. It's lag due mechanics flaws. Also, soul puppet/wraith value is same as summoned companion. Which is absurd.

To sum up what warlocks are.. >> take x class, remove any viable elements, leave terrible/broken/irrelevant mechanics.
Then nerf them.

And here you have warlock.

athena

This saddens me that the Devs do not care at all about the current condition of the Warlock. Having spent in my currency a lot of my hard earned money for a Toon that is not really viable is heart breaking. I cannot afford to make another toon and invest in it the way I have my Warlock. I just dont have the time and money after spending so much on it. Not only that real money was spent. No one wants me in any dungeons Hellbringer or Soulweaver. I just battle to understand why the Devs have done this and why they are not giving any explanation to this? I was intending to continue to buy Zen and get my Warlock semi decent but for what? All other players will out DPS and heal so much more its not even comparable.

The Warlock was my fist toon I made. I loved the play style and the mechanics way back when it was a go to class. Is there any hope of them fixing the Warlock or are we just barking up a tree? Do they want to remove the Warlock and they doing this by putting people off?

From someone whom has invested into the Warlock over a good few years its literally a kick in the teeth and a big F you from the Devs. I could handle all the other modifications they have done but please listen to the people that help pay your salary and fix the Warlock. But as usual even after all the years this will fall on deaf ears. I doubt this game will make it to next year if they do not bother to attend to the major issues with this.

edenfay

athena#2864 said:

This saddens me that the Devs do not care at all about the current condition of the Warlock. Having spent in my currency a lot of my hard earned money for a Toon that is not really viable is heart breaking. I cannot afford to make another toon and invest in it the way I have my Warlock. I just dont have the time and money after spending so much on it. Not only that real money was spent. No one wants me in any dungeons Hellbringer or Soulweaver. I just battle to understand why the Devs have done this and why they are not giving any explanation to this? I was intending to continue to buy Zen and get my Warlock semi decent but for what? All other players will out DPS and heal so much more its not even comparable.

Not many warlocks will argue that Hellbringers are in a good place, or are even particularly fun to play, but both paragons are effective in content outside the Tower of the Mad Mage, and Soulweavers are viable everywhere. The single-target weakness of the Hellbringer isn't especially striking in REDQ dungeons or scaled content, where the chief issue is sluggish cast times that (may) lead to unpleasant Paingiver results against fast-cast DPS (but don't look at those numbers: look at your overall run time.) Like Paladins, Soulweavers struggle in super-scaled baby dungeons, but we shine in in unscaled and lightly-scaled content where Shatter Spark overheals with the best of them.

So if you genuinely love how the class plays, have put all your resources into your warlock, yet nobody wants you in *any* dungeons, perhaps it's time to find a better guild/alliance... and then save your despair for ToMM, lol.

athena

edenfay#2737 said:

athena#2864 said:

This saddens me that the Devs do not care at all about the current condition of the Warlock. Having spent in my currency a lot of my hard earned money for a Toon that is not really viable is heart breaking. I cannot afford to make another toon and invest in it the way I have my Warlock. I just dont have the time and money after spending so much on it. Not only that real money was spent. No one wants me in any dungeons Hellbringer or Soulweaver. I just battle to understand why the Devs have done this and why they are not giving any explanation to this? I was intending to continue to buy Zen and get my Warlock semi decent but for what? All other players will out DPS and heal so much more its not even comparable.

Not many warlocks will argue that Hellbringers are in a good place, or are even particularly fun to play, but both paragons are effective in content outside the Tower of the Mad Mage, and Soulweavers are viable everywhere. The single-target weakness of the Hellbringer isn't especially striking in REDQ dungeons or scaled content, where the chief issue is sluggish cast times that (may) lead to unpleasant Paingiver results against fast-cast DPS (but don't look at those numbers: look at your overall run time.) Like Paladins, Soulweavers struggle in super-scaled baby dungeons, but we shine in in unscaled and lightly-scaled content where Shatter Spark overheals with the best of them.

So if you genuinely love how the class plays, have put all your resources into your warlock, yet nobody wants you in *any* dungeons, perhaps it's time to find a better guild/alliance... and then save your despair for ToMM, lol.

Thank you. I have just heard so many bad things about the Warlock after coming back from a years break. I really enjoy the Warlock and do realize that I will just have to up my game in the mean time. My Guild is awesome although we not online together due to the time difference. I would like for the Warlock to be in a place where people actually want to team up with it and not look down on it as a class that has been over nerfed and not cared about at all.

You are right I don't seem to have an issues running around solo in the scaled content. Its just some of the dungeons. I have gotten her to a better place already and have felt a big difference but the Devs really need to do more work on it to scale them up to the other classes. I have managed to do a fair amount of damage in TONG but it was hair raising and stressful but I did it!! Neverwinter is my daily stress reliever! I have put in a lot of time and money into my Warlock and even though I say I wont I will more than likely end up spending more on it.