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  • callumf#9018 callumf Member Posts: 1,518 Arc User
    The concept of Mod 16 - slowing down combat and getting a healer in to heal - was admirable.

    I think it was just handled a bit badly.

    I really want to get heals sometimes in a dungeon or skirmish, but it doesn't seem to happen often enough.

    I would hope the devs just keep working on it to somehow encourage people to play healers.
  • frogwalloper#6494 frogwalloper Member Posts: 821 Arc User
    edited September 2019

    I really want to get heals sometimes in a dungeon or skirmish, but it doesn't seem to happen often enough.

    This makes me feel a little guilty. Used to be when playing arbiter in the bottom queues, I'd swap in Bastion if people were missing big chunks of health, then I started subscribing to the way of thinking that, I'm here for dps not heals. They just need to play better, and chose not to swap out an attack for a heal. And that made me felt like a jerk afterwards - which I was.
    Post edited by frogwalloper#6494 on
  • lukejones77lukejones77 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 282 Arc User

    The concept of Mod 16 - slowing down combat and getting a healer in to heal - was admirable.

    I think it was just handled a bit badly.

    ...

    It was going fine all things considered (excepting runs that hadn't been tuned for mod 16/scaling) until a group of players practically forced the beefing of DPS.
    There's a fine balance to these things, right down to how fast enemies will damage, how long the battles should last, and how fast the healers can heal.

    In that balance, you don't give in to making player attacks much more powerful, without dimishing the roles of tanking and healing.

    The extreme case of this, prior to mod 16, was the crazy damage geared GWFs used to do, using it to insta-heal with lifesteal, to the point of run-ahead soloing, not caring for healer, tank or anyone else in T2s.
    The only time the game was more broken than that was when Pallies ran around with the perma-bubble.
  • onlymatonlymat Member Posts: 317 Arc User

    onlymat said:


    not the nerf is the problem the problem is: Healers give NOTHING to the group. You rund random queues and you donß t feel a difference if you play it with a 26k healer or a 10k healer.
    So the guy upgraded his healer to 26k gets NOTHING for it. It doesn´t help the group its just not needed for 99% of Content and
    soo it makes no sense to upgrade healers or play them. Same with tanks.

    The design was good, and then toys flew out of the pram with many crying loudy that they didn't feel as powerful as before due to the scaling.
    Sadly, and perhaps necessarily with the player-base hit already taken, Cryptic renegged and adjusted to give BIS their powerful feeling back.
    From that, you get a knockon effect eroding the design. Part of that is that the mobs etc get killed before you get to the point of relying on your healer. In two more rounds sicne then they've set about giving the enemies smaller hits and less health.

    A key facet of the design was to get rid of insta-kills, slow down combat, and rely on healers to get you through it. Bring the over-power back to DPS, and you get the win before you get to feel the need for the healer.

    The other game breaking consequence is the inability to even get random queues to pop. All the non-DPS classes now have a DPS paragon path. Because their "true role" isn't perceived with enough value and respect, they're queuing as DPS - and the queues are pretty much dead, unable to find tanks, and particularly, healers.

    It's pretty simple and obvious, that if the fights last long enough, and the enemies do enough damage that you're not going to survive without good healers - that this whole situation completely changes.

    Far as I can see, this one is on the players.

    It's pretty simple and obvious, that if the fights last long enough, and the enemies do enough damage that you're not going to survive without good healers - that this whole situation completely changes.


    No it´s not. Even if you would need more heals you can´t feel a difference in Castle Never between a 10k Healer and a 26k Healer THIS is the Problem.
    You can feel the difference if a 26K CW is in Party or only a 10K cw. But healers and Tanks? You don´t feel difference with them and even if you would need more helas you could still end up in groups not able to finish Malabog. And this even if you are 26k and upgraded most things possible in the game. Again - to upgrade tanks and healers ist wasted they give NOTHING to the group thats why they leave or left and thats why no groups pop anymore. Like I have written 90% of high IL Pallys and DC´s I know are gone. Many of them did nothing but run all Dungeons all the time. (like myself more than 3800 Dungeons run).
    Now they are not here anymore so no queue pops. And the DC don´t have the Problem that you need not enough heals the problem is: YOUR upgrades on your class change NOTHING for the whole run.

    Healers and Tanks needs to be Buffers again so it makes sense you give something to the group especially the more upgrades you do the more you give to the group - you have a goal again. A 10k Powershare pally or a 27k Power share Pally - you would feel a Difference and the Pally guy could be sure to finish almost everything because hes´s inside. If this will not happen as asap then both classes are dead - then you have to rework all again so people can run with 5 DPS - no heals needed anymore - no tanks needed anymore because they are not in the game anymore. If you check xbox for example - EVERYONE NEEDS a tank from normal queues up to lomm - always search for tanks and most times don´t find them.
  • lukejones77lukejones77 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 282 Arc User
    onlymat said:


    No it´s not. Even if you would need more heals you can´t feel a difference in Castle Never between a 10k Healer and a 26k Healer THIS is the Problem.

    Yes it is, and THAT's not THE problem. It's obvious that it's both, and something else as well. You need to have the problem of needing a healer in the first place, and thgen you need to make sure that the level of healing scales with the gear of the healer, and that this also scales with the stated difficulty of the run (the point you're making).

    The other thing that's important is that the role is fun to play. That's foremost for everything.
    I've only ever played a DPS class (the one that had an increasing horrible time of things from mod 6 through to mod 15), so I don't really know what makes healing fun, but I do recall DCs having a great time back in the past, when combat was slow enough for healers to manage the business of being able to take pride in a party that experienced no flashes of green, amidst admonishing the team for standing too long in the red.

    I've heard complaints that healing is not a fun role. There have been plenty of complaints that classes generally are less fun, since the builds all got "dumbed down". I get that. I also get that a reset was needed, and the DEVs needed to get design control back. The game is always changing, and I'm confident that complexity and increased fun will creep back, but hopefully with enough control this time, to not marginalize specific classes.

    To get the game design right, and prevent the have and have-nots meta-fiasco that dominated mods prior to mod 16, is not easy. There are "balance targets" in many, many areas.
  • therealprotextherealprotex Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 502 Arc User
    I made the following suggestion before M16, maybe I should repeat it.

    Please Devs, remove the group REQUIREMENT from any queues. Add a little check box in the queue selection dialog. If it is checked, you will have to wait for the 3+1+1 meta. If it is unchecked, you go with any combination of classes into the queue.

    Now, if you end up with a group that fullfills the 3+1+1 meta, the group will get a significant bonus in that run. If you end up in a group that does not fullfill the 3+1+1 meta, you will not get any bonus.

    That bonus would not be additional loot, better loot or rAD. It would be something like an increasement of the (scaled) caps for the run. Reduced cooldowns for encounters. Increased action point gain. Something like that. Something that makes the run easier.

    The bonus is applied any time when the group fullfills the 3+1+1. And the bonus is denied every time when the groupd does not fullfill the 3+1+1 meta. This is important, because it would allow the players to change their loadout when they are in the queue already without breaking this bonus system.

    Btw, the difficulty should be balanced towards the meta still.
  • asterotgasterotg Member Posts: 1,742 Arc User
    onlymat said:

    onlymat said:


    not the nerf is the problem the problem is: Healers give NOTHING to the group. You rund random queues and you donß t feel a difference if you play it with a 26k healer or a 10k healer.
    So the guy upgraded his healer to 26k gets NOTHING for it. It doesn´t help the group its just not needed for 99% of Content and
    soo it makes no sense to upgrade healers or play them. Same with tanks.

    The design was good, and then toys flew out of the pram with many crying loudy that they didn't feel as powerful as before due to the scaling.
    Sadly, and perhaps necessarily with the player-base hit already taken, Cryptic renegged and adjusted to give BIS their powerful feeling back.
    From that, you get a knockon effect eroding the design. Part of that is that the mobs etc get killed before you get to the point of relying on your healer. In two more rounds sicne then they've set about giving the enemies smaller hits and less health.

    A key facet of the design was to get rid of insta-kills, slow down combat, and rely on healers to get you through it. Bring the over-power back to DPS, and you get the win before you get to feel the need for the healer.

    The other game breaking consequence is the inability to even get random queues to pop. All the non-DPS classes now have a DPS paragon path. Because their "true role" isn't perceived with enough value and respect, they're queuing as DPS - and the queues are pretty much dead, unable to find tanks, and particularly, healers.

    It's pretty simple and obvious, that if the fights last long enough, and the enemies do enough damage that you're not going to survive without good healers - that this whole situation completely changes.

    Far as I can see, this one is on the players.

    It's pretty simple and obvious, that if the fights last long enough, and the enemies do enough damage that you're not going to survive without good healers - that this whole situation completely changes.


    No it´s not. Even if you would need more heals you can´t feel a difference in Castle Never between a 10k Healer and a 26k Healer THIS is the Problem.
    You can feel the difference if a 26K CW is in Party or only a 10K cw. But healers and Tanks? You don´t feel difference with them and even if you would need more helas you could still end up in groups not able to finish Malabog. And this even if you are 26k and upgraded most things possible in the game. Again - to upgrade tanks and healers ist wasted they give NOTHING to the group thats why they leave or left and thats why no groups pop anymore. Like I have written 90% of high IL Pallys and DC´s I know are gone. Many of them did nothing but run all Dungeons all the time. (like myself more than 3800 Dungeons run).
    Now they are not here anymore so no queue pops. And the DC don´t have the Problem that you need not enough heals the problem is: YOUR upgrades on your class change NOTHING for the whole run.

    Healers and Tanks needs to be Buffers again so it makes sense you give something to the group especially the more upgrades you do the more you give to the group - you have a goal again. A 10k Powershare pally or a 27k Power share Pally - you would feel a Difference and the Pally guy could be sure to finish almost everything because hes´s inside. If this will not happen as asap then both classes are dead - then you have to rework all again so people can run with 5 DPS - no heals needed anymore - no tanks needed anymore because they are not in the game anymore. If you check xbox for example - EVERYONE NEEDS a tank from normal queues up to lomm - always search for tanks and most times don´t find them.
    Not quite right. A low gear tank cant grab/ hold aggro against a high geared dps. Thats not a problem with a decent healer.

    Higher geared healers can carry a group, up to a certain extend. A DC cant heal a one hit wonder tank, but if he has somehow decent gear, he will survive, due to the fact, that his HP are filled instantly by a good healer.

    You are right in the way, that a good geared dps can solo some of the content and make or brake a run.

    Imo the problem number one are to low ILs and badly geared players. I wanted to farm Linus favours with my alts. Keep in mind, that I joined a premade from a raid channel. With an alt. Even these ppl (raid channel, not random que) lacked gear and basic understanding of mechnics. For example, I had to defend the right cleric alone for some time, bc 9 of 10 players decided, to defend the left one, bc the way to the black dragons head was shorter. My alt (HR) did 30% more dmg, then the next player and more then twice the dps of the other dps. If a somehow decent player with decent gear does double the dmg, that the players from a preselected group can dish out, they are badly geared or played, period. I did run with farm premades and I know, that there is a difference between my dps and theirs.

    You cant measure skill, but at last make them gear up a little.

    Chars: CW, DC, GF, GWF, HR and TR.
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