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Discussion about DPS fighter

fsf4livefsf4live Member Posts: 29 Arc User
edited July 2019 in The Guard Barracks
Hey guys.

I want to open a discussion about to build the dps fighter and the playstyle with this class.
Maybe we can help each other to improve our performance.

How have you build your dps fighter?

I use Weight of Vengeance, Prepared Slam, Roiling Hatred, Strikers Mark and Executinors Cut. I use this loadout for ST and AoE, because my other loadout is a Vanguard with Integritys DPS build. I think I perform quite good with that build and my 21k IL, also in LoMM. The class features I prefer are Momentum and Combat Superiority. I use for trash mobs Bullcharge, Onslaught and Anvil or Tremor. For boss fights I use Anvil, Bullcharge and CS or GW. At wills are Heavy Slash for the buff and Reave for AoE or Brazen Slash for ST.

Let's discuss about our class to find the best way to play it.
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Comments

  • kingkevin#3240 kingkevin Member Posts: 69 Arc User
    Idk about the best way as this is my alt, but every time I’ve used my fighter for in LoMM, I always went dps. We would have 4dps(including me) and one cleric
  • stark760stark760 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 462 Arc User
    It can be playable. But if good/great DPS is around, that doesn't wait for the group, its stinks. Average groups can be fun, but totally different if you have people that wipe the mobs ahead of you like they have an AK, and we show up with our heavy slash at the end. Then get to seethe more because we didn't do anything. In the thick of battle, if the battle lasts, yes the bar stays charged, but that rarely happens. With quick mobs, and breaks on boss after 10 secs, the fighter is always trying to catch up or says forget charging the seethe. Broken as I see it, at least to other classes that don't have to do mechanics to warm up.
  • mebengalsfan#9264 mebengalsfan Member Posts: 3,169 Arc User
    stark760 said:

    It can be playable. But if good/great DPS is around, that doesn't wait for the group, its stinks. Average groups can be fun, but totally different if you have people that wipe the mobs ahead of you like they have an AK, and we show up with our heavy slash at the end. Then get to seethe more because we didn't do anything. In the thick of battle, if the battle lasts, yes the bar stays charged, but that rarely happens. With quick mobs, and breaks on boss after 10 secs, the fighter is always trying to catch up or says forget charging the seethe. Broken as I see it, at least to other classes that don't have to do mechanics to warm up.

    And with catching up you know what encounter helps, ITF. I still use this just for that reason. I also find it useful when I do my thing and pull groups of mobs together; it allows me to have my shield up indefinitely and dps tank mobs after mob after mob.

    I find I need to wait for Heavy Slash to show up to really get good damage out of my fighter as I use the other feat that boost AoE encounters damage magnitude by 200. It suppose to consume heavy slash but it doesn't so I have 2 or 3 AoE encounters slotted and once I see heavy slash show up I use them and 90% of the time two usually clear groups of mobs around me, it is why I keep ITF on my character. Though there are times where I do need that third encounter but rarely does that happen.

  • stark760stark760 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 462 Arc User
    edited July 2019
    If with a slower DPS like a barb, sure. ITF makes your teammates that are trying to run ahead even faster. So if you're saying to wait to cast it until they are out of range to get ITF speed, it doesn't solve the problem. In groups I run a lot, when I put my shield up to charge seethe and hope for hit to charge faster, like you're saying, the battles over. Mob after mob? In what content? ME's? LOMM? RAQ? Solo? The DPS isn't bad, but is clunky and predicated on getting heavy slash first, which is a pain most of the time. Big hits do happen, but not enough, and ITF got nerfed to death. I guess it depends on which content and who you're in a group with. If the idea is to stay in average groups where it'll take a little longer, but you'll get to see rotations as the dev's think they should be, mission accomplished. If anyone in the group is a big hitter(or more than 1 and its a joke), the entire situation changes. You become the guy that shows up with the pistol after everyone unloads their clip.
  • fsf4livefsf4live Member Posts: 29 Arc User
    edited July 2019
    In my guild I'm top dps. But my dps is just slightly higher than our CW or HR and I have the slightly better equip. But it shows, that we can compete with other classes. But HR or CW have a advantage in terms of dps.
    Usually I am the offtank in LoMM. We also go with 4 dps (including me) and a healer. And I am the tankiest one because of my shield. It works quite good.

    I don't use ITF. With the movement speed of Momentum I am really fast. And I want another slot for a damage dealing encounter. Because that is the source of our damage. Our at Wills aren't really good.

    How have you build your fighters? What powers do you use? How is your playstyle / rotation?
  • stark760stark760 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 462 Arc User
    My DPS is good, some would say very good. Getting into a high tier group puts things in perspective. If I run with Guild/Alliance members only, yes, I can be top DPS. The groups are not that strong if I'm top DPS though and takes longer. Also matters if someone in the group is making us wait for an extra sec or 2 and I can charge seethe. If not, and going in with no seethe, the lvl of the group matters(high dps and how well they know their class). I was running Bull charge, Shield slam/onslaught and anvil for trash depending on mobs. For bosses, I switched in commander strike and strikers mark feat on different loadout(not a great option, but really not much else you can do, 1 build for trash, 1 for boss due to feats as I saw). Tried Knee breaker/Bull charge, CS, Anvil, but never really liked the boss spec, as usually was tough to switch back to trash loadout and have other DPS wait. No win situation. Finally spec'd for tank mode on fighter for now. Not hard, just boring to tank LOMM. As for DPS, the build is like the barb, have to charge(time, which other DPS classes don't have to waste), the hits hit for same amount as other DPS, you get 1/4 to 1/3 less hits though. I've tested through ACT and seen it. We have a clunky system, where we have to charge, and our at-wills are so-so at best, and now we have longer encounter times too. They need to change the seethe/rage for the fighter/barb so the bar is full and goes down as we use, like stamina, and maybe have to charge the seethe when we exhaust. Better yet, give us a real tab move, instead of a knockback that can only work once every 10 secs on tank, or the duece squat.
  • rjc9000rjc9000 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,352 Arc User
    Just wanted to point out that if the self buff bugs get fixed, most GFs are looking at average of ~10-12% DPS increase on the assumption you have Vengeance up for decent amounts of time, use a decent ranked Vorpal, have ~5% Crit Sev from DEX, reasonably can get into CA, and have ~50% through 80% CA bonus after opposing rolls.

    The higher your Crit Severity and CA Bonus, the greater the DPS increase you get from fixed self buffs. I don't count Enduring Vengeance due to most fights being too short to make use of it, but if you count its bonus up 24/7, then you are looking at a greater DPS increase. If you like to spam At-wills and use Combat Superiority, you're also looking at a slightly higher DPS increase.

    Getting things that should have worked to begin with totally makes up for having terrible mechanics, amirite? :trollface:

  • fsf4livefsf4live Member Posts: 29 Arc User
    edited July 2019
    Has somebody testet our feat "Crushing Blows"? Is it worth to use it over Roiling Hatred? How often does it proc with a difference of Power and ArP of more than 50k?

    Do you prefer Weight of Vengeance or Heavier Slash as our T1 feat?
  • rjc9000rjc9000 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,352 Arc User
    fsf4live said:

    Has somebody testet our feat "Crushing Blows"? Is it worth to use it over Roiling Hatred? How often does it proc with a difference of Power and ArP of more than 50k?

    I don't think it's worth using just because of the chance and that stupid ratio. I'm not one of those rich players with 200,000+ Power, but from what I tried, if you hit that much Power, you're never getting any procs of Crushing Blows.

    If the rate was 100% of the time without any stat ratio garbage (or could triggered on a condition that you can replicate, such as "after using Commander's Strike" or something like that), I'd use it, even if it means that you are constantly at risk of running out of Vengeance.

    I didn't confirm any formula on the feat, but I didn't notice any difference in proc rate until the difference of Power vs. ArmorPen went to something like 30,000 to 40,000 (it was a ~8% reduction in proc chance when the difference was ~35,0000 from the limited test I did. Not going to bother trying to check if it was within the Standard Deviation or other statistical junk).

  • fsf4livefsf4live Member Posts: 29 Arc User
    Thanks for testing and your report. :)
    So it seems that this feat is pretty useless.
  • kydavi#1678 kydavi Member Posts: 68 Arc User
    fsf4live said:

    Has somebody testet our feat "Crushing Blows"? Is it worth to use it over Roiling Hatred? How often does it proc with a difference of Power and ArP of more than 50k?



    Do you prefer Weight of Vengeance or Heavier Slash as our T1 feat?

    Heavier slash, all the way, useful against bosses and trash

    kydavi

    Main: Nidara Devilspawn- Ranger
    Alt: Aradin Coldblood- Fighter
    Alt: Lucrezia Vileborn- Warlock
  • aday#3795 aday Member Posts: 62 Arc User
    edited August 2019
    fsf4live said:

    In my guild I'm top dps. But my dps is just slightly higher than our CW or HR and I have the slightly better equip. But it shows, that we can compete with other classes. But HR or CW have a advantage in terms of dps.

    Usually I am the offtank in LoMM. We also go with 4 dps (including me) and a healer. And I am the tankiest one because of my shield. It works quite good.



    I don't use ITF. With the movement speed of Momentum I am really fast. And I want another slot for a damage dealing encounter. Because that is the source of our damage. Our at Wills aren't really good.



    How have you build your fighters? What powers do you use? How is your playstyle / rotation?

    I can't find a good dps build for Fighter, the most I find are focused on tank. Most of times, I do tank, but I'd like to give it a try to Vanguard.

    What are your feats, and which powers you use on aoe/st? Is there any guide out there you know of?

    Thanks in advance!
  • mebengalsfan#9264 mebengalsfan Member Posts: 3,169 Arc User
    aday#3795 said:

    fsf4live said:

    In my guild I'm top dps. But my dps is just slightly higher than our CW or HR and I have the slightly better equip. But it shows, that we can compete with other classes. But HR or CW have a advantage in terms of dps.

    Usually I am the offtank in LoMM. We also go with 4 dps (including me) and a healer. And I am the tankiest one because of my shield. It works quite good.



    I don't use ITF. With the movement speed of Momentum I am really fast. And I want another slot for a damage dealing encounter. Because that is the source of our damage. Our at Wills aren't really good.



    How have you build your fighters? What powers do you use? How is your playstyle / rotation?

    I can't find a good dps build for Fighter, the most I find are focused on tank. Most of times, I do tank, but I'd like to give it a try to Vanguard.

    What are your feats, and which powers you use on aoe/st? Is there any guide out there you know of?

    Thanks in advance!
    Just build one and try it out. You need to test out what works for you as a player. I find guides as a way to help me refine my build but not a way to create a build. I play around with feats, encounters, etc.. until I find a setup that works for me and my play style.
  • aday#3795 aday Member Posts: 62 Arc User
    edited August 2019
    > @mebengalsfan#9264 said:
    > In my guild I'm top dps. But my dps is just slightly higher than our CW or HR and I have the slightly better equip. But it shows, that we can compete with other classes. But HR or CW have a advantage in terms of dps.
    >
    > Usually I am the offtank in LoMM. We also go with 4 dps (including me) and a healer. And I am the tankiest one because of my shield. It works quite good.
    >
    >
    >
    > I don't use ITF. With the movement speed of Momentum I am really fast. And I want another slot for a damage dealing encounter. Because that is the source of our damage. Our at Wills aren't really good.
    >
    >
    >
    > How have you build your fighters? What powers do you use? How is your playstyle / rotation?
    >
    > I can't find a good dps build for Fighter, the most I find are focused on tank. Most of times, I do tank, but I'd like to give it a try to Vanguard.
    >
    > What are your feats, and which powers you use on aoe/st? Is there any guide out there you know of?
    >
    > Thanks in advance!
    >
    > Just build one and try it out. You need to test out what works for you as a player. I find guides as a way to help me refine my build but not a way to create a build. I play around with feats, encounters, etc.. until I find a setup that works for me and my play style.

    I don’t want to waste retraining tokens/AD on an alt character to check what feats are the best for a DPS Fighter. I’d rather experienced people let me know which work best and why, since I’m aware, too, on Fighter some feats are not working as intended, and it’s been reported.

    Obviously I would take that as a start, and I might or not then tweak some things here and there

    That’s why I asked out Fsf4live, since he was saying he was top DPS on his guild, and I was curious.
  • fsf4livefsf4live Member Posts: 29 Arc User
    edited August 2019
    Sorry for answering so late.

    In LoMM I am top dps in my guild, but I have 10k more power than the others and more CA. But I think I can play my fighter pretty good.

    At-wills:
    Heavy Slash for buffing. Brazen Slash for ST dps und Reave for AoE dps.

    Encounters:
    Bull Charge, Anvil of Doom and Commanders Strike/ Griffons Wrath for ST. And Bull Charge, Onslaught and Tremor/ Anvil for AoE.

    Class Features:
    Momentum and Enduring Vengeance.

    Feats:
    Very important are Prepared Slam and Roiling Hatred (because the alternatives are really bad). The rest depends on playstyle and situation (AoE or ST). I run Weight of Vengeance because I love the big 500k hits with Anvil. Also the cooldown is reduced, that is very important. But maybe sb likes Heavier Slash more. The Advantage is that you don't have to care about your Vengeance. But if you can control your Vengeance, Weight of Vangeance probably has a higher damage potential. The 4th and 5th feat depends on the situation. For AoE I would take Landwasher und Bloody Reprise. For ST I would recommend the other two options. I personally have no extra AoE loadout, because I have only two loadouts and the other one is for tanking. Personally I only use the ST loadout. It also works.
  • rev#7881 rev Member Posts: 343 Arc User
    edited August 2019
    ( I haven't played much fighter this mod but this is what i think so don't crucify me)

    Fighter does hit hard with the right setup and everything stacked (50%+ vengeance, enduring vengeance and heavy slash at least in aoe) the problem imo are the cooldowns.

    I've been playing different classes this mod and if you check for example ranger, wizard they have ways to reduce their encounter cooldowns, when the fighter only has a cd reduction on Anvil of Doom by selecting a feat if i'm not mistaken.

    So if you don't melt something, when you get to your 2nd rotation as a fighter, the other classes are already done with theirs and half way into the 3rd one wich leads to a bigger difference in dps.

    But then again what do i know, some classes are buged and the devs said they were gonna analise stuff this mod and maybe do some changes if needed around mod 18.
    Post edited by rev#7881 on
  • fsf4livefsf4live Member Posts: 29 Arc User
    Yes. You are right. Another problem are our weak at-Wills between that long cooldowns. So reducing our cooldowns by 1 or 2 seconds would maybe solve the problem of disadvantage against other DPS classes.
  • devilxjkdevilxjk Member Posts: 97 Arc User
    St at will if enough good, the problem is focused on "reave" at wil aoe is terrible
  • bojshabojsha Member Posts: 82 Arc User
    Why would you guys want to play Fighter as DPS? The real reason.
  • silence1xsilence1x Member Posts: 1,503 Arc User
    bojsha said:

    Why would you guys want to play Fighter as DPS? The real reason.

    because it's there as a choice as well as the word "Fighter".
    I aim to misbehave
  • fsf4livefsf4live Member Posts: 29 Arc User
    > @bojsha said:
    > Why would you guys want to play Fighter as DPS? The real reason.

    Because tanks are useless in mod 16. You don't need a tank to clear a dungeon (except of CR maybe). And tanking is really boring for me.

    DPSing is quite funny.
  • devilxjkdevilxjk Member Posts: 97 Arc User
    ok, fighter is realy fun to play (for me)(not the seethe), so the problem is that everyone avoid dps fighter , cause dps is not good enough,
  • bojshabojsha Member Posts: 82 Arc User
    No one answered it honestly, this is hopeless.

    * DPS loadout on the Fighters is there for to help with campagain tasks, but in general he is a TANK class.*
    fsf4live said:

    > @bojsha said:

    > Why would you guys want to play Fighter as DPS? The real reason.



    Because tanks are useless in mod 16. You don't need a tank to clear a dungeon (except of CR maybe). And tanking is really boring for me.



    DPSing is quite funny.

    Nah, you just pus out, thats whats happening here, playing a tank is never boring.
    devilxjk said:

    ok, fighter is realy fun to play (for me)(not the seethe), so the problem is that everyone avoid dps fighter , cause dps is not good enough,

    Yup, its not ment to be super good since he is TANK.
  • devilxjkdevilxjk Member Posts: 97 Arc User
    edited August 2019
    bojsha said:

    No one answered it honestly, this is hopeless.

    * DPS loadout on the Fighters is there for to help with campagain tasks, but in general he is a TANK class.*

    fsf4live said:

    > @bojsha said:

    > Why would you guys want to play Fighter as DPS? The real reason.



    Because tanks are useless in mod 16. You don't need a tank to clear a dungeon (except of CR maybe). And tanking is really boring for me.



    DPSing is quite funny.

    Nah, you just pus out, thats whats happening here, playing a tank is never boring.
    devilxjk said:

    ok, fighter is realy fun to play (for me)(not the seethe), so the problem is that everyone avoid dps fighter , cause dps is not good enough,

    Yup, its not ment to be super good since he is TANK.
    just like paldin is a good healer and a good tank, we would be also a good dps. what's the problem?

    p.s. Fighter tank is boring!(for me)

  • rjc9000rjc9000 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,352 Arc User
    bojsha said:

    Why would you guys want to play Fighter as DPS? The real reason.

    I don't speak for everyone, but I was intrigued to see how the "Fearless" Fighter would balance out the Conqueror tree.

    In theory, the Conqueror actually had a unique design with clear strengths (burst damage single target), weaknesses (lengthy cooldowns, KC turning you into glass while it was active, meh AoE), and player involvement (needed to know how to tank in order to see your opportunities to deal damage, long cooldowns and 10 seconds of KC forced you to pick your damage opportinuty wisely, KC double damage penalty forced you to pay attention to the enemies or die midswing).

    In practice, Conqueror ended stupidly good because its weaknesses were covered by the other broken things of previous mods (uncapped buffs, Survivor's Wraps, Shepherd's, powershare, Hastening Light/Artificer's, and lifesteal).

    With the busted stuff killed off in Mod 16, you'd think the replacement would inherit the fun and depth of Conqueror, right?

    Too bad that the only thing inherited from Conqueror was a tenuous design goal (counter attack) and not much of the fun or depth that was put into Conqueror.

  • mcfobmcfob Member Posts: 76 Arc User
    DPS Fighter would be fun to play again if they added a sweet damage buff to ITF, not going to happen though, Fighter gets no love
  • gpfryguygpfryguy Member Posts: 3 Arc User
    Love the Fighter as DPS. To me the character should be able to stand in for the long haul, and it does. But, like Pantha7 says, groups tear apart mobs while we work on digging in. Because of slow attacks, those attacks should be powerful to keep up with the other classes - that would be awesome. Give Dreadnought the love we give it!
  • fsf4livefsf4live Member Posts: 29 Arc User
    edited September 2019


    There is a recorded LoMM run from me as DPS fighter. Well, our class has a small disadvantage against other DPS classes like rogue, mage or ranger. For me reducing our cooldowns would solve that issue.
    BUT you can still be top DPS in LoMM. Generally I am top dps in LoMM as a fighter. So don't give up! ;)
    Post edited by fsf4live on
  • dspeic43#8473 dspeic43 Member Posts: 11 Arc User
    This is my personal opinion and in no way anything that should be taken as gospel. This isnt a super in-depth analysis but just observations I have made after playing both classes for a few years. I wont be covering some stuff, or If I forget to mention something that is important to an argument that I am making please point it out. Im going to use the terms GF for fighter and GWF for barbarian. I main both of those toons. While both are afflicted by the same issues concerning the so called “buffs” (not compared to the TR, HR, and CW) that the classes have there are differences in their performance compared to the other dps classes and each other.

    Again, my personal experience should not be taken as an actual metric to measure how well a class performs compared to other classes because there are many variables that should be taken into consideration. Also, other players personal experience should be taken lightly as we, you, or others do not know the conditions in which that players GF was in. Meaning, did they play with an HR, TR, CW? What was their gear loadout? Power? Etc... as a GF if I have 200k power with BiS gear, you would expect my GF to outperform a TR with 130k power with suboptimal gear. For me stating that my GF is a good metric for other DPS GF’s to compare to would give some players false hope (maybe not the right word) when consider DPS GF a viable DPS. When players like RJC9000 who have tested these toons and give a detailed analysis of the how they perform state that the GF DPS suck and play like <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>...... well based on the numbers and thorough analysis then you would also conclude that they play like dookie.

    With that out of the way, here is my take on how the class as a DPS is performing, and compared to another class (GWF) with the same problems (that are WAI.... I guess).

    Movement and fluidity in combat:

    The GF appears to be slow and clunky/cumbersome. Looking at his GWF brother, which compared to previous mods is also slower and more cumbersome now, the GWF plays smoother and doesnt feel like a chore to move in combat. The GF moves, animations, and attacks are slow and in my opinion are perceived to long winded (which may or may not be the case depending on the encounter/at-will).

    Attacks:

    Encounters have good mag but some are slow to fire off like onslaught. I cant count the amount of times I get into the fight first and go to fire off onslaught only for most of the enemies to be dead already due to the HR melting them. Onslaught by the way is one of my favorite attacks in the game. Super cool. Moves like tremor with 250 mag and 15.6 second cd suck as an aoe compared to GWF’s not so fast attack. Not so fast can have an immediate cooldown, proccs a “buff”, and gives decent rage and has a base cd of 11ish seconds, seems way better to me. Tremor.... does some damage... Atwills are pretty bad as well. Cleave does 25 mag as an aoe attack and reave does 30.. again compared to the GWF aoe attack of WMS (renamed relentless) is not even close. Single target attack heavy slash has 80 mag (tooltip is wrong stating 100) with a 1 sec cast time compared to GWF’s brash strike with 85 mag and .8 cast time doesnt do as good either.

    Feats/Class mechanics/etc...

    Vengeance..... 20% “buff” is nice, but, is a chore to manage and leads to more clunky and slow movement issues. I actually jump and tap my right bumper (seethe button) and release before touching down to power it up and maintain it between fights. Combat superiority seems ok but I dont know if ill ever notice it doing much for me than just being something I have to pick for my second class feature. Momentum is nice and since it was reworked to make bull-charge do more damage independently of the movement is super cool. It never leaves my bar for a gap closer and decent mag attack. But thats it.... bosses never seem to live long enough to consider slotting enduring vengeance. I never use the speed boost one because I run 4x gladiators guiles (the other insignia bonuses are garbage, except artificiers persuasion). While GWF’s only get a 10% (or 15%) boost in damage from rage, its quicker to get to rage depending on what you run and I can go ham with WMS in a “target rich” aoe situation. With GF DPS I guess cleave is ok but slow and weak (25 vs GWF 45 wms) or I can run around and line up my reave aoe attack and hope the HR, GWF, whatever other DPS havent already deleted the enemies from the equation we call life. GWF has a crit severity increase, steel blitz, and trample the fallen. All of those feats for the GWF effect every or most attacks they have.

    This is already long winded and makes the point I think. I know comparing these 2 classes isnt end all be all. Like I said it is my PERSONAL opinion and experience by maining these 2 classes. GF suffer from poor aoe at wills, slow and clunky moves/attacks with long cd’s ( is this why you call him GOOFY FIGHTER? because he feels clunky and goofy to play?) and poor class features. My endgame GWF can hang with and beat most end game TR’s that I have played with. Well gear and well played HR’s are a different story. My DPS GF doesnt cut the mustard when compared to another class that suffers from some of the same issues as DPS GF does. DPS GF needs a little bit of love. Maybe bring back WMS for the GF? Speed up some animations and reduce some cd by a second or two? Or make the encounter worth the wait by making them hit harder like the DPS GF of old? Like RJC9000 mentioned, the old DPS GF was a beast when used right. A 10 second window to dump an absurd amount of damage or get 1 shotted was fun.

    Both GF AND GWF are not performing as well compared to the other DPS classes but at least my GWF can do decent damage and is competitive with some of the other DPS classes. I personally would never ask for nerfs and think that the weaker classes should get a buff. Especially SW, poor <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. Anyways, just my .02 cents.
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