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Significant patch and no patch notes! Why should the player base even bother?

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  • rafamarques#5700 rafamarques Member Posts: 155 Arc User
    they have new politics i think;patch notes could "contaminate" our gameplay/feedback.
  • rickcase276rickcase276 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,382 Arc User
    Well as Terramak is the only one that posts patch notes, it is conceivable that he was either out sick or not in the office today. Now granted that does not mean that someone else could post it for him, but.....
  • ragnarz2ragnarz2 Member Posts: 208 Arc User
    but what?
  • rickcase276rickcase276 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,382 Arc User
    The but would be I have only seen one other person, Julia, post patch notes when Terramak was not in the office. But being the community manager she may not be totally privy to the changes to be able to create the patch notes.
  • draugkirdraugkir Member Posts: 99 Arc User
    its like a boat in the storm.. neone know wheres its heading..
  • autumnwitchautumnwitch Member Posts: 1,016 Arc User
    Just to remind you folks, they are now officially in crunch time. I suspect we won't hear much from them for a while. I am sure many of them are working 16+ hour days.

    Let's all give them a break and let them do their jobs.
    Boudica's Sisters - A Guild For Introverts
  • ragnarz2ragnarz2 Member Posts: 208 Arc User

    Just to remind you folks, they are now officially in crunch time. I suspect we won't hear much from them for a while. I am sure many of them are working 16+ hour days.

    Let's all give them a break and let them do their jobs.

    LOL

    Doing their jobs includes putting out patch notes.

    Holding them accountable is our job. No need to white knight.
  • kiraskytowerkiraskytower Member Posts: 452 Arc User
    The update to preview came out late on a Friday - it was probably the last thing they did before going home for the weekend. Lets hope they can get them out Monday morning for us.
    PandorasMisfits_Logo_175_zpskpytcqxc.png
    Winter Lily (CW) / Winter Rose (DC) / Winter Ivy (HR)
    Pandora's Misfits Guild Leader
  • autumnwitchautumnwitch Member Posts: 1,016 Arc User
    ragnarz2 said:

    Just to remind you folks, they are now officially in crunch time. I suspect we won't hear much from them for a while. I am sure many of them are working 16+ hour days.

    Let's all give them a break and let them do their jobs.

    LOL

    Doing their jobs includes putting out patch notes.

    Holding them accountable is our job. No need to white knight.
    Unless you are signing their pay-packets, they are not accountable to you or any players. FACT 1

    You are not entitled to anything. FACT 2.

    We are lucky they decided to engage with us at all. FACT 3

    If you find this concept unacceptable I suggest you stop gaming or start your own gaming company. Suggestion 1
    Boudica's Sisters - A Guild For Introverts
  • rafamarques#5700 rafamarques Member Posts: 155 Arc User
    Unless you are signing their pay-packets, they are not accountable to you or any players. FACT 1

    You are not entitled to anything. FACT 2.

    We are lucky they decided to engage with us at all. FACT 3

    If you find this concept unacceptable I suggest you stop gaming or start your own gaming company. Suggestion 1


    1 - this forum is a service of the game and we are costumers of this game.
    2 - the porpose of a certain page called FEEDBACK thread are collect your feedback about the quality of this changes (not create a link between fans and idols). so, the community be able to test this changes are part of the service (or we are working for free, but that as a free game, so, no problem).

    so, what we have here is:

    or that service stoped to work for some exporadic reason (too much job, can be), new politics (no more predictions about changes, only test the changes)... or a resonable reason ("boat in the storm").
  • ragnarz2ragnarz2 Member Posts: 208 Arc User

    ragnarz2 said:

    Just to remind you folks, they are now officially in crunch time. I suspect we won't hear much from them for a while. I am sure many of them are working 16+ hour days.

    Let's all give them a break and let them do their jobs.

    LOL

    Doing their jobs includes putting out patch notes.

    Holding them accountable is our job. No need to white knight.
    Unless you are signing their pay-packets, they are not accountable to you or any players. FACT 1

    You are not entitled to anything. FACT 2.

    We are lucky they decided to engage with us at all. FACT 3

    If you find this concept unacceptable I suggest you stop gaming or start your own gaming company. Suggestion 1
    Clearly you have embraced your powerlessness.

    The fact is there are many ways to hold people accountable.

    Cryptic is lucky that sufficient numbers are actively engaged in testing in order to assist them in producing a better product.


    Thanks for the suggestions but I have such a low opinion of you now that your meanderings will no longer distract me.
  • vendoodvendood Member Posts: 77 Arc User

    ragnarz2 said:

    Just to remind you folks, they are now officially in crunch time. I suspect we won't hear much from them for a while. I am sure many of them are working 16+ hour days.

    Let's all give them a break and let them do their jobs.

    LOL

    Doing their jobs includes putting out patch notes.

    Holding them accountable is our job. No need to white knight.
    Unless you are signing their pay-packets, they are not accountable to you or any players. FACT 1

    You are not entitled to anything. FACT 2.

    We are lucky they decided to engage with us at all. FACT 3

    If you find this concept unacceptable I suggest you stop gaming or start your own gaming company. Suggestion 1
    I honestly don't get people who think like this.

    Where do you think the money that goes in those pay packets comes from?

    When a company stops being accountable to their customers, they are on the road to no longer being a company.

    We are the entire reason that Neverwinter Online even exists.

    Cryptic is not entitled to one da_mn dollar unless we decide that what they are doing is worth paying for.

    Seriously, Cryptic long ago developed a corporate mindset where players are just cattle they need to herd into pens to milk the cash from them. And players like this encourage them.

    You are a customer. Or, if you happen to be a free player who does nothing but provide content for paying customers, you are in fact a free, unpaid worker for Cryptic. Don't let them off the hook just because you can't recognize sloppy, poorly designed work.

    If they are cranking things out at the last minute, it's because they haven't staffed properly, haven't planned properly, haven't scheduled properly, and have made a corporate decision to push a badly designed module out the door on Apr. 23rd whether it is ready or not.

    If their paying customers and volunteer workers don't call them on that, who will?
  • autumnwitchautumnwitch Member Posts: 1,016 Arc User
    vendood said:

    ragnarz2 said:

    Just to remind you folks, they are now officially in crunch time. I suspect we won't hear much from them for a while. I am sure many of them are working 16+ hour days.

    Let's all give them a break and let them do their jobs.

    LOL

    Doing their jobs includes putting out patch notes.

    Holding them accountable is our job. No need to white knight.
    Unless you are signing their pay-packets, they are not accountable to you or any players. FACT 1

    You are not entitled to anything. FACT 2.

    We are lucky they decided to engage with us at all. FACT 3

    If you find this concept unacceptable I suggest you stop gaming or start your own gaming company. Suggestion 1
    I honestly don't get people who think like this.

    Where do you think the money that goes in those pay packets comes from?

    When a company stops being accountable to their customers, they are on the road to no longer being a company.

    We are the entire reason that Neverwinter Online even exists.

    Cryptic is not entitled to one da_mn dollar unless we decide that what they are doing is worth paying for.

    Seriously, Cryptic long ago developed a corporate mindset where players are just cattle they need to herd into pens to milk the cash from them. And players like this encourage them.

    You are a customer. Or, if you happen to be a free player who does nothing but provide content for paying customers, you are in fact a free, unpaid worker for Cryptic. Don't let them off the hook just because you can't recognize sloppy, poorly designed work.

    If they are cranking things out at the last minute, it's because they haven't staffed properly, haven't planned properly, haven't scheduled properly, and have made a corporate decision to push a badly designed module out the door on Apr. 23rd whether it is ready or not.

    If their paying customers and volunteer workers don't call them on that, who will?
    The only people Cryptic are accountable to are the stockholders. That is a fact rather anyone likes it or not. Nor am I saying this is good or bad. But it is a fact. There is no getting around that.

    Unless you (or I) are a stock holder / manger a Cryptic the devs do not answer to us. That is a fact. Again, there is no way to get around this.

    All that being said, if said powers that be run the company out of business because they didn't listen to the customers (us) that again is on them. The will have no one to blame but themselves.

    Part of management's job is to create a profitable business. Part of that is listening to us (the customers) but that is only part of it and from the stockholders/management's POV it's not even the most important part of the equation. Bringing in cash is paramount. There is sort of a unsaid (or sometimes very said) expression in today's business climate and that is "The customer is the unfortunate consequence of doing business". They only want to deal with us in so much as it adds to the bottom line.

    The fact is, they could make NW one of the best games in the world (as far as our (customer)) POV is concerned but that is not what is best for them. They need/want to make the most profitable NW as possible because ultimately they report to the stockholders. We need to keep this in mind regardless of how slimy it might sound because the two options can not exist at the same time. What is best for us is not best for them. They can't give away the farm just because it's fun or there will be no farm at all. They got to pay the bills, salaries, bonuses all that.

    I suspect what we are seeing with MOD16 is a very lean operation that is designed to make as much profit as possible with as little capital expended as possible. So when we get angry at the devs we are getting angry at the wrong people because the devs are just doing their jobs the best they can within the limits they have.

    If you are really upset at what is happening at NW direct your anger at the stockholders and upper management because they approved it otherwise it would not be happening.

    So give the damn devs a break they are under so much stress already. Trust me they know how upset we are. They really do.





    Boudica's Sisters - A Guild For Introverts
  • ecrana#2080 ecrana Member Posts: 1,654 Arc User


    I suspect what we are seeing with MOD16 is a very lean operation that is designed to make as much profit as possible with as little capital expended as possible. So when we get angry at the devs we are getting angry at the wrong people because the devs are just doing their jobs the best they can within the limits they have.

    If you are really upset at what is happening at NW direct your anger at the stockholders and upper management because they approved it otherwise it would not be happening.

    Totally agree with most of your post and think people are acting a bit entitled when they demand anything from devs. We are nothing more than a sounding board. They choose what they want to incorporate from our feedback. Like it or not.

    But the one point I don't 100% agree on is to say that the devs are being "forced" into certain decisions. They may be. We just don't know that. The more likely scenario is that the lead was given a goal such as "we need to increase profits by xx% this year" and that lead devised a way to meet those goals.

    Sadly, most stockholders/upper management have little knowledge on how a product actually works or what it takes to revise systems, etc. So when they make a profit based request the lead has to make decisions like "well, running this game with smaller resources will increase profits quickly". Goal now met. The other sad part of this equation is that most game/creative leads don't have good heads for business.

    So now you've got a more creative mind making bad business decisions based off some feedback from a more business oriented person that has no technical knowledge. Fails all around.

    But again, none of this is fact as I'm just making up stories out of thin air (like everyone on these forums that has absolutely zero facts as to they hows & whys any decisions are being made).
  • vendoodvendood Member Posts: 77 Arc User
    edited April 2019
    Well, if you think the corporate heads and marketing planners and shareholders call the shots, I invite you to google "New Coke" and see who really calls the shots at the end of the day.

    And thinking that "what is good for them is not what is good for us" is the kind of thinking that gets companies in trouble all the time. When you start thinking of your clients as a resource to be maximally milked, and stop thinking of them as someone whom you are trying to impress with the quality, value, consumability and appropriateness of your product... you've just opened the door for a competitor to step in and walk off with your customer base.

    It's a bit disheartening that people are so desirous of being disempowered sheep that they think that their spending patterns as a customer and their opinions as a customer are essentially irrelevant to someone they do business with.

    I suggest that perhaps you learn how to vote with your wallet, your feet, and your word of mouth, and see if that gives you a little more ability to affect the companies you do business with.
  • rickcase276rickcase276 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,382 Arc User
    The only thing is, we do not know the threshold point where we would be affecting their bottom line. Would it take 1000 people not buying anything/leaving the game or would it take 1 million, or even 10 million. Yes, it takes the first one to do it, but there is no guarantee that anything you do will affect what they are doing. So basically people have to do what is best for them.
  • jules#6770 jules Member Posts: 671 Arc User

    The only thing is, we do not know the threshold point where we would be affecting their bottom line. Would it take 1000 people not buying anything/leaving the game or would it take 1 million, or even 10 million. Yes, it takes the first one to do it, but there is no guarantee that anything you do will affect what they are doing. So basically people have to do what is best for them.

    That mindset is what HAMSTER up elections. "I'm just one person, I can't change anything" as in thinking that your own influence over a company or over other people is so minimal that you better stop working against something you initially wanted to fight and instead stop being "troublesome" and just go with the flow. I get what you mean, everybody has to do what feels right to them, but there's nothing wrong with talking about different mindsets and how you could work around some issues.

    Of course it might not change anything, of course people might simply not care when reading complaints, critisism or negative feedback, but then they shouldn't be surprised by changes to playerbase they might not have imagined in any way.
    It's not just the raw numbers of people leaving, if the right (read: the wrong) people leave, it might have negative effects on how other people engage with the game. (As in, how much money they are willing to spend that endgame players you interact with call "a sinking ship" for example.)

    Anyway, I agree with @vendood . The general notion of some people to just accept and even welcome what gets thrown at them, no matter the qualtiy, is a refusal to acknowledge what power you have over businesses. Many games died slow or not so slow deaths because others popped up that included players in a different, new way. Sides, if you let people do so much of the testing for you, they are bound to have an opinion lol. If you want something from the people that pay you you should at least try to give them something in return. It doesn't matter who is signing paychecks, a game lives from gamers being happy with it. Everybody profiting from Neverwinter should care about how it is perceived.

    Including clients and their feedback as well as transparency and open communication is a sign of quality, and is good for a better community.
    The lack of open communication is already killing a part of the community, as I doubt many people are going to spend time to test things again if they don't even get the slightest acknowledgement.

    This is not about patch notes, since people obv aren't bound to their offices and have a life of their own, but about general management of preview and about how important people view communication. If there is nobody to give out patch notes, tell the people beforehand or when you notice people ask for patch notes? If there's devs too occupied with working their asses off (as I'm sure they are) there is still the possibility to have somebody jump in and talk about it. Make your players feel included. They are already thanking you for even popping up in topics from time to time.
    That only the assigned dev is responsible/allowed to reply to a topic is nonsense. A community manager may not know what's currently worked on, but could still be able to smooth over the edges in some topics.

    If nobody has time to talk to customers it's just a reflection of values. Thats not the individual dev's fault, but a sign of what to do with your money in the future.
    There is no need to pity people for the job they signed up for, but also no need to blame the devs for everthing that's going wrong all at once. The bigger picture (business philosophy) is faulty in my eyes, not one dev or the other.
    - bye bye -
  • mynaammynaam Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 892 Arc User

    Unless you are signing their pay-packets, they are not accountable to you or any players. FACT 1

    You are not entitled to anything. FACT 2.

    We are lucky they decided to engage with us at all. FACT 3

    If you find this concept unacceptable I suggest you stop gaming or start your own gaming company. Suggestion 1


    1 - this forum is a service of the game and we are costumers of this game.
    2 - the porpose of a certain page called FEEDBACK thread are collect your feedback about the quality of this changes (not create a link between fans and idols). so, the community be able to test this changes are part of the service (or we are working for free, but that as a free game, so, no problem).

    so, what we have here is:

    or that service stoped to work for some exporadic reason (too much job, can be), new politics (no more predictions about changes, only test the changes)... or a resonable reason ("boat in the storm").
    So what you are saying is we should give them our money but not expect them to deliver a functioning product or expect feedback when something is wrong. I really hope cryptic do not agree with you
    There are more than BIS players in this game
    It has been 5 YEARS since last new class this is getting ridiculous
    FORCING the majority of your player base to play 4 mod old dungeons and trial will have a bad result on player base
    Please do master/normal version of dungeons. This way content for all MOD 19 have nothing new for vast majority of player base. Giving an EVENT is not same thing as permanent content for non BIS. As we suggested in CDP
    Changes are getting so bad i would rather prefer no new changes (RIP ICE FISHING in winter fest)



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