When The Cool Stuff Becomes Obsolete

bobgreenwade

I'm just about ready to give up on Neverwinter, and possibly on MMOs in general. It's not anything that's the fault of any particular person or group of people, but just a thing in the general system that I find frustrating.

The simple version of the problem is: It's all down to a numbers game.

As my characters get up higher in the ranks, they've found Powers, equipment, companions, and even mounts that very nicely fit into a certain theme in one way or another. I started with my Rogue, inspired by Xuna's showing in the original trailer, with teleporting powers plus whatever I could find to make him more of a deadly killer, taking items of shadow and darkness where I could fit them. My Barbarian (Great Weapon Fighter) has come across many items that surround her with flames. I've similarly gravitated to certain ideas with my Paladin (her main build is intended as a DPS with Healing -- sort of an avenging protector -- though it's really the other way around) and my Wizard (items with lots of summoning power are his thing).

The bad news is that those concept-driven builds come at a cost to combat effectiveness. There's not really any way for that Wizard to upgrade Mirage equipment from the River District or Boots of the Alpha from Chult so that they can compete with the stuff from Barovia or the stuff about to come from the Undermountain. There are no Equipment Upgrade Tokens, no methodologies in Professions, no way to transfer special abilities the way one can appearance, or anything else of that sort.

I'm increasingly getting advice to upgrade gear to more recent stuff, based on combat power, even if I don't particularly like the special abilities they give, or am really attached to the special abilities of my older items. And, because of the huge gap in damage/defense between the starting stuff at L70, such as what's encountered in the Stronghold or the Well of Dragons, and what's needed in places like Fangbreaker Island or Tomb of the Nine Gods, I need that more advanced stuff to function in the latter.

Some of the things I mentioned in passing above might be a solution, but I expect they'd be a long time in coming, if they come at all.

And while Mod 16 gives my Rogue and Paladin great hopes for working at the extremes of their respective classes (and I welcome what I've seen of changes for these two), for either of them to try a middle ground is a big challenge. Rogues, from what I can tell, will be able to handle crowds on one path, or bosses on the other; there's not much hope for a generalist. Paladins will be great healers or great tanks, but a "hybrid" build that's effective in Heroic Encounters and other open-world situations will be as challenging to put together as it is now.

I have a hard enough time switching gears for the different controls going from one character to another; doubling the number of power control combinations that I have to get used to (or even more than that) with different Powers on different builds is just a bit much.

And, again, creating a "middle ground" or "generalist" path for each Class is a bit much to ask, especially at this stage of development for the Class reworking. At best, it'd be a couple of years before I see such a thing, if I see it at all.

I'd like to stay. You folks at Cryptic have done a very nice job in creating fun stories and interesting characters to go in them. It's just in the way that such an overwhelming majority of players (not meaning those reading these forums; in the game overall) just want to boost up their numbers as high as possible as quickly as possible, so that building characters centered on concept becomes an anachronism.

silverkelt

There will be far less choices.. not more in mod 16..

We will never have as much choice as we do right now.

Right now, what you are stating was at least somewhat achievable , if not really practically outside of RIQ and down..

After mod 16 drops.. if you dont have the stats, you will be terrible.

At least most of all teh weapon enchants are completely trashed and worthless at near the same level.. so there is that. ?You can pick any of them and be within a near % point of each other.. because again.. players cant make decisions, we are all stupid, so anything that had choices is being removed..

If this is the market that MMOs are going after now a days.. what a load of murlarky.

There was already too much trash grind giving to players in this game to start with... now, all the trash grind will be elongated by 30-40%.. yay! right?

mithrosnomore

So change the appearance of the better items to those that you like the most.

A character could have the best equipment in the game but look like they were still wearing their starting gear if the player chooses to make it happen.

Otherwise? Of course it's a numbers game. Should there not be better gear? Should a level 1 character be able to defeat the most challenging content in the game? Because without that "numbers game" that is what this would come down to.

But again, the ability to change the appearance of gear is there.
That level 1 gear may have long since lost it's usefulness in battle, but it is still useful as a transmute if you want it to be.

Unknown

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krumple01

malheur2080 said:

Since they are going to scale all content, i would like to see them getting rid of the character level as whole, because to level a character to maximum is just a thing of a couple of days. I would like to see all the gear we are earning in every campaign, be still viable and if it's possible be the best choice for each content. As for example for eDemo or Prophecy of Madness the Drowcraft Armor should be the best equipment you can use in this content and can be improved through rings from other campaigns +1% to+5% Damage against Demons and the Mark of the Demon Slayer Enchantmant for Overload slots, Boons +% Damage/Defence against Demons. Recreate the weapon sets like the Twisted Weapon Set by adding some numbers to Damage and Defense against Demons. So, this weapon set is BIS for this content. Would like to see the same for all Dungeons, Skirmishes and Trials content. Creating a Loadout for every queue content in every new Module, is what would keep me go on in this game. Just running for new gear each Module to see it swimming away every half year and doing this over and over is not very exiting to me. I would like to see the old gear getting a reason to exist in this game. This would open a completely new way for longlivity for the game. Not just go inside, melt everything without any efford for your Daily RAD, because only high stats matter. How fun would this be, if the fastest team climbing up the Hill in FBI would be the one with the specific set with highest everfrost resist, ofc without to have to recharge it with voninblood and items which increase the damage against Giants. Just some thoughts which i would like to see as a new direction change in this game.

Terrible ideas. Not only would this force players to carry dozens of sets of gear but Cryptic has already addressed that they didn't want players feeling the need to carry multiple sets of gear. Not long ago, around mod 11 this was a tactic that players were forced into utilizing, not only did players hate it but cryptic even hated it. They took steps to make it so players wouldn't need to use or collect multiple sets of gear.

bobgreenwade

mithrosnomore said:

So change the appearance of the better items to those that you like the most.

A character could have the best equipment in the game but look like they were still wearing their starting gear if the player chooses to make it happen.

Otherwise? Of course it's a numbers game. Should there not be better gear? Should a level 1 character be able to defeat the most challenging content in the game? Because without that "numbers game" that is what this would come down to.

But again, the ability to change the appearance of gear is there.
That level 1 gear may have long since lost it's usefulness in battle, but it is still useful as a transmute if you want it to be.

I already change appearance. Appearance is not the issue. Special abilities according to theme is the issue. Should my Wizard have to forego Mirage gear from the Cloaked Ascendancy, and its ability to call forth three illusory versions of himself, for the far-higher stats of some later version that gives something like +1500 Armor Penetration for 5 seconds when critically hit?

(Recommendation: In the future, please read more carefully before replying.)

mithrosnomore

bobgreenwade said:

mithrosnomore said:

So change the appearance of the better items to those that you like the most.

A character could have the best equipment in the game but look like they were still wearing their starting gear if the player chooses to make it happen.

Otherwise? Of course it's a numbers game. Should there not be better gear? Should a level 1 character be able to defeat the most challenging content in the game? Because without that "numbers game" that is what this would come down to.

But again, the ability to change the appearance of gear is there.
That level 1 gear may have long since lost it's usefulness in battle, but it is still useful as a transmute if you want it to be.

I already change appearance. Appearance is not the issue. Special abilities according to theme is the issue. Should my Wizard have to forego Mirage gear from the Cloaked Ascendancy, and its ability to call forth three illusory versions of himself, for the far-higher stats of some later version that gives something like +1500 Armor Penetration for 5 seconds when critically hit?

(Recommendation: In the future, please read more carefully before replying.)

Recommendation: In the future be more clear about the problem. Saying that an item "fits a theme" doesn't necessarily mean that you are talking about some extra added special powers. You could simply be arguing that the elemental fire weapons work better for you because you chose the Master of Flame path for your wizard and like flamey things.


There is not a level 80 version of everything in the game. There will likely never be.

Just like how in "real" D&D some specific items are not as powerful as other items no matter how well it may fit someone's "theme".

A theme, I might add, that the player and character almost certainly did not have at the start but instead picked up along the way based upon what items they found. The player got used to having something and suddenly thinks that they should always have it.

So it was somehow okay to "change their theme" once or twice, but then it was not okay all of a sudden because reasons.

So all you PnP Wizards? Staff of Power is a lot cooler name than Staff of the Magi, so don't bother with the so-called "upgrade". You have been using a Staff of Power for a while now; It's really become part of your "theme".
And that Robe of Useful Items you have been wearing? It's practically your trademark. Don't even think of changing into that Robe of the Archmage.

Fighters? The Vorpal blade is overrated. Hang on to that +3 Defender because a high AC is part of your "theme".

And here? In this game? By all means hang on to outdated equipment because it's themey, no matter how difficult the new content gets, because the new gear offers an inferior theme or no theme at all.

Except for "Amongst the most powerful heroes in all of Faerun" at the very least, but who cares about that theme?

Dungeons & Dragons, in all of it's incarnations, is full of examples of gear that is just plain better than some other gear that "fills the same slot", even if that better gear doesn't do all of the same things that the inferior gear does.

adinosii

I wonder...

We have seen mount powers decoupled from the mounts you are riding. Mod 16 will do the same for companions and companion powers - you can pick 5 powers from those you have unlocked by obtaining the relevant companions.

Maybe the next logical step will be to do the same for gear? You collect a set of possible special powers associated with various gear items as you obtain them and then you can have any 4 powers active (corresponding to head/armor/arms/feet), selected from the total list you have unlocked.

This could make it worthwhile to go back and to earlier content - the rewards might not be worth it for the stats, but the special powers might still be good.

bobgreenwade

mithrosnomore said:

Except for "Amongst the most powerful heroes in all of Faerun" at the very least, but who cares about that theme?

Just about everyone, it seems, to the exclusion of all else. Thus, the problem. Casting aside my Wizard's summoning a dinosaur at the start of combat and every couple of minutes during, so he can get +4 AC and other extra stats, is good for becoming "super powerful" but breaks his concept. Those of us who are here for story and character as much as action get left behind.

I don't mind when those things leave us notably less powerful than the power-gamers; if they want to just be the most powerful around, let them have at it. But I would like to at least be able to fight side-by-side with them, in the same way that comics have Green Arrow and the Elongated Man fighting alongside Superman, Green Lantern, and Wonder Woman.

adinosii said:

I wonder...

We have seen mount powers decoupled from the mounts you are riding. Mod 16 will do the same for companions and companion powers - you can pick 5 powers from those you have unlocked by obtaining the relevant companions.

Maybe the next logical step will be to do the same for gear? You collect a set of possible special powers associated with various gear items as you obtain them and then you can have any 4 powers active (corresponding to head/armor/arms/feet), selected from the total list you have unlocked.

This could make it worthwhile to go back and to earlier content - the rewards might not be worth it for the stats, but the special powers might still be good.

That would be excellent, really. I'd love to see that incorporated. Changing gear powers could even have a cost associated in the same way that we have costs for changing appearance or Artifact powers. It doesn't affect neck and wait pieces (I still wouldn't have my Paladin give up her Lathander set for the Demon Prince items, though my Wizard probably will if he can collect them all), but if armor pieces can have that level of customization then I'd be One Happy Camper.

frogwalloper

I feel the same way about some of things you pointed out.

For one, I think it's like you said, it's extremely rare to find a playerbase that's most interested in thematic runs, or a challenge for challenge's sake, or a zany combination of equipment and abilities that's not only fun but effective. I tend to bring up Mass Effect 3 a lot 'cause it had such a community - players who sneered at the scrubs for relying on op characters and weapons, then went on to school them with a starter weapon and a basic build. But I bet there are one or two quality guilds out there that play that way. I think some of weapon bonuses you mentioned and some of the companions give players some room for creativity, but there's definitely room for Neverwinter to move farther in that direction.

I think Warframe does a great job of avoiding the obsolescence trap. There are many hundreds of weapons in that game, and all of them are still used today - even the starter ones. I don't know what the solution is for Neverwinter, but I don't believe designing weapons and armor to function primarily as stat boosts is the best way to go - nor forcing players to heavily invest in an item that's going to be obsolete by the end of the year.

jonkoca

adinosii said:

I wonder...

We have seen mount powers decoupled from the mounts you are riding. Mod 16 will do the same for companions and companion powers - you can pick 5 powers from those you have unlocked by obtaining the relevant companions.

Maybe the next logical step will be to do the same for gear? You collect a set of possible special powers associated with various gear items as you obtain them and then you can have any 4 powers active (corresponding to head/armor/arms/feet), selected from the total list you have unlocked.

This could make it worthwhile to go back and to earlier content - the rewards might not be worth it for the stats, but the special powers might still be good.

Great idea +1