No one is asking for a nail that can be screwed in, just that we be allowed to hammer in our own nails if we want to.
"Solo players" often get treated like there's this binary state where you either belong to knitting clubs, Eagles Lodges, church groups, and have bunches of friends, otherwise you must be some anti-social cave troll that never leaves the house and even orders your groceries online so you never have to see another human being that then complains when a human delivers the groceries. That's horse dookey.
I can't speak for every solo player in an MMO (that's part of the fun of being a solo player), but I think most (all?) of us like being in a living environment with other people around that we can interact with if and when we *choose* to. I doubt there are any of the theoretical "cave trolls" I mentioned above that do play MMOs. I doubt most (any?) of us have a problem with group content existing or with pugging. The rub is when the game tries to strongarm and coerce people into interacting in invasive ways. I'm not talking about doing a dungeon, skirmish, or trial. In this case, I'm talking about having to go through the process of manually pre-making a group, having to approve/reject other people and/or getting approval/rejection from other people in order to even be permitted by the game engine to do something that should be puggable.
I personally don't give a hamster's HAMSTER about the gear, I'd just like to see some long lost content that should have never been lost and I don't feel like trying (and likely failing) to get the approval of IL and party-meta gatekeepers in order to do so. I also don't feel like having to join knitting clubs, Eagles Lodges, church groups, and make bunches of friends just to avoid *some* of the gatekeeping. Thirdly, I don't feel like being told to just stay in my cave and order my groceries online if I don't want to do those other things. I don't think I'm alone.
8
micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
Firstly, I don't see anyone objecting for it to be in the queue, as it should be.
Secondly, in this, and the other threads like it that pop up from time to time and where we usually meet, many of the solo players do have problem with the dungeons, skirmishes, etc.. as the source of the gear, and as the main content in the game. You can see some of it in this thread right now.
Yet another group type event that gives the best gear and new content..Tales o The Old... can't Neverwinter make best gear availablee to dolo players?
The original complaint is that the best gear is only accessible as group and not the problem with the group formation. And with that some of the derived discussion.
And last but not least, when typically solo players are discussed, as far as I see, those are not like you, who does group content, but mostly people who do not do group content.
...you complain about high movement builds, but it simply means that you actually do join queues and content with other players otherwie you wouldnt know that happening. And then again who forbids you to make similar build?
I don't complain about any builds whatsoever, but I do think it's really funny when I see people sneering at solo players in an mmo when any number of them go off and build loadouts that ensure they don't have to play with anyone - most particularly in the leveling queue and ctas. I find it just a little ironic.
My complaint is that its not in the queues. I absolutely hate trying to find people to do content. I am more than happy to have them play matchmaker for the groups. When they said they would scale people up I wrongly assumed we wouldn't have to grovel for a group. As I said to some online...so 3 events with new things... CTA with the new medals or whatever you can get 1 day/3/event...didn't seem to be worth it and bugged. feast of lanterns...really just rehash of other events...yawn....and was kind of looking forward to Tales of Old but for the gate of entry(ie. no one I know available to do it when I can).
Kinda "massively multiplayer online game" should give a clue as to why.
Just spam zone chat in PE, or the pve channels. Who knows, you might make some friends.
Yet most game content from level 1 - 70 seems to be designed for solo players, so that appears to throw the "massively multiplayer online game" primarily for multiplayers theory right out doesn't it?
You mean the tutorial, right? The one that slowly shows you how to do things until you get to the maximum level for which most of the content in the past 5 years was done? And the same tutorial which has leveling dungeons and skirmishes that are done in groups?
The "tutorial" is character level 1-4 (or 5+/-) depending, where the voice over explains what a player needs to do to navigate, and interact during the game.
After a player exits the Sleeping Dragon Bridge and completes the Theft of the Crown quest, the bulk of the tutorial is over and the actual game content begins,
There are also Character Progression Quests where players may be assigned tasks to learn how to do things, but these continue up to and include level 70 with Epic Dungeons and Epic Adventuring... so unless someone considers the entire game a "tutorial", up to and including level 70 - no, I'm not just talking about the tutorial.
I see it as a fact that some content is specifically designed for parties or multi-players and some appear to be specifically designed for solo players and @dblu has a point, much of the newer content seems to be intentioned for group or multi-player purposes with little or no new content, excluding AI intentioned for multiplayer groups.
This has been a common and I believe mostly ignored complaint for years so as I see it players will stick with Neverwinter right up to the point where the feel there is little or no available solo content for them and either change (sometimes grudgingly) their preferred playstyle – or leave Neverwinter for some other game with more solo friendly content...
Wait wait, I know that specifically designed for solo players content, what was its name, It's on the edge of the tongue, I know it, ahh right.. All those Single Player Games
There is a bunch, and they are quite good, a good number in the D&D or similar worlds.
I don't get it, when people start playing an MMO, they expect it to be Massive Solo Playing Online ?? Seriously, what is the expectation here? When you buy a single player game and play it, you expect to have to queue and play with some random people over the internet?
So let me ask you... since this is a Multi-player game, have you or do you still seek or join a party when doing anything in Neverwinter? Take for instance professions, trade or purchases...
No? Maybe because despite Neverwinter being a MMO there is some content that is specifically designed and intended to be played solo. Otherwise every bit of content would require players to function in a group or multi-player mode.
A MMO merely means there are other players in the game - not that one must constrain themselves to play in group or multi-player mode.
People solo multiplayer content all the time: bosses, challenges, dungeons, whatever - so long as the game permits it. Making something soloable doesn't mean changing the content. The highest value gear shouldn't be locked behind a group effort. It should be locked behind the most difficult content, and I don't see any particularly good reason why anyone shouldn't be allowed to attempt that.
I think it's hilarious that some of you deride people so for playing multiplayer content on their own, when you're the ones who go off and make loadouts with obscenely high movement so you can hop into queues and leave everyone else in your dust. That's solo play - or at the very least, highly antisocial.
In short you want soloing the game and get same good gear other players can get only with combined effort of 5 or even 10 of them working together?
I doubt it even cross your mind that if that was the case no1 would even think about creating any party and grouping for anything?
What would be your next demand? Legendary mounts dropping from mobs or something?
And last but not least - no one is forbiding you to create a private 1 man party and join most of the content latest event included.
Furthermore - you complain about high movement builds, but it simply means that you actually do join queues and content with other players otherwie you wouldnt know that happening. And then again who forbids you to make similar build?
It isn’t always about getting the same or better gear as everyone else – most of the time it’s about just being able to play new content that hasn’t already been run to death.
For instance the introduction of Acquisitions Incorporated was specifically designed to be solo friendly... but it seems for every solo friendly event like AI, there are four or five introductions of new content specifically designed for multi-player participation, at least by those who can’t or haven’t yet obtained some of the BIS or near BIS gear that allows them to go to and survive in some of those areas.
I’ve been playing casually for years, but after a couple experiences of spending money to buy or spending hours grinding to obtain top of the line gear – only to see it become obsolete or nearly so with the introduction of the next Mod, I’m less inclined to repeat my previous mistake and by that I mean specifically spending money to buy or hours, days or weeks grinding for gear only to have it become virtually worthless within a what I consider a relatively short period of time.
DD~
7
micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
The "tutorial" is character level 1-4 (or 5+/-) depending, where the voice over explains what a player needs to do to navigate, and interact during the game.
After a player exits the Sleeping Dragon Bridge and completes the Theft of the Crown quest, the bulk of the tutorial is over and the actual game content begins,
There are also Character Progression Quests where players may be assigned tasks to learn how to do things, but these continue up to and include level 70 with Epic Dungeons and Epic Adventuring... so unless someone considers the entire game a "tutorial", up to and including level 70 - no, I'm not just talking about the tutorial.
Then I'll be the first to tell you that most consider everything until level 70 as one long tutorial. Feel free to check when various skill unlock, paragons, core mechanics, and so on.. And most importantly the influence of mistakes, where the content is extremely forgiving in terms of bad choices, aka tutorials, vs not as forgiving aka the actual game. Up to max level you can gear anyway you want, and make random feat choices, it will not influence much.
So let me ask you... since this is a Multi-player game, have you or do you still seek or join a party when doing anything in Neverwinter? Take for instance professions, trade or purchases...
Professions, trade and purchases... Interesting that you mention those, because indeed those are best done as group activity, and designed as a chain of people working towards a goal. I will not do maps on my own, other friend do, we trade, I craft, someone else purchases the result. The organization and separation of those parts is indeed a group activity, more so when people help each other from the start with guild marks and materials and so on. ofc, you can do it by yourself, but like any other group content, it will be much more difficult for you.
No? Maybe because despite Neverwinter being a MMO there is some content that is specifically designed and intended to be played solo. Otherwise every bit of content would require players to function in a group or multi-player mode.
Designed to as group content doesn't mean one is forced to do it a such or the same with solo content, designed as solo dailies do not bar anyone from grouping for those, as many actually do. It means that it is balanced in terms of time spent and rewards for a certain type of player behavior. You can queue to any dungeon on your own, but it doesn't mean the game is designed for you to succeed that way, or even give you a fair chance (at the same gear level as a group).
But sure, there is content that is intended to be done solo, most of the dailies are such. So here you go. You believe that all content should be designed for single players? I'm sorry to shatter those dreams, but most content will always be designed as group content, simply because it's a retention mechanism, people keep people in the game, not the content on it's own.
A MMO merely means there are other players in the game - not that one must constrain themselves to play in group or multi-player mode.
No, An MMO doesn't merely mean there are other people around. It's not multiple single players doing their things in a single player campaign. MMO dictates design concepts, target audience, and multiple concerns and restrictions. SaaS dictates retention model vs the one time buy for triple A single players.
It is naive and self serving considering MMO as just the same but with others doing their own thing. The core game design for single player games and MMO are a night and day, and a modern MMOs are mostly oriented around group content, and various social interaction direct or indirect.
Early lvl70 is a tutorial too, mind you. If youre a tr whos used to just running into everything and using 2 powers and watching everything die, you wont be very successful cause youll get instakilled. You have to learn how to move with the group, time your buffs, learn your class, as you just unlocked new powers and feats. So no lvl1 to 5 aint the tutorial.
0
plasticbatMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 12,466Arc User
IMO, the game has already dumbed down and character has been powered up to make it easy to solo. In the beginning, it was not easy to solo even before level 60 (there was no level 70). The dungeon was longer and the mob were relatively tougher and harder to go through even in party. IMO, the game already has been a lot more solo friendly than before. i.e. even the "tutorial" was not exactly easy for solo back then. For me, the tutorial includes finishing level 70 + Dread Ring + Sharandar. Graduation test is if you can solo Prison in WoD.
*** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
Tutorial or not, I like the path to 70. I enjoy a higher story to task ratio a lot more than the reverse.
I do think that on the whole - whether purposely or incidentally, Neverwinter's become at least a little friendlier to solo players than it was a year ago, though in this particular instance, maybe not so much. But it sounds like this is an aggravation for players all across the board, not just one type.
Most of my guild runs on a different time frame so I hardly ever seen any of them for any group events. I asked in chat to form a group and some of the rudest players come out and belittle me for even asking... Qued events are a much better option than "finding a party" on your own. Hopefully, I will be able (at some point) to meet up with the Guild.. But this event is a complete let down. I don't mind working in a group or with people, but this set up is BAD.
And if the underlying intent is for the devs to provide non-elite players motivation to invest more time/$$$ to become elite...you are wasting your time and frustrating the very players you are attempting to motivate/manipulate.
Hmm... I don't know about motivation or $$$, but looking at the notion of this paragraph I'm willing to sell you fabulous tin-foil triangle hats, mint condition, great quality, very affordable rates! Discounts for mass orders!
Ok....agree to disagree. I see manipulation - you see, what, free rainbows and unicorns maybe? NWN is 'free to play' but it sure isn't free to operate. I don't mind the manipulation - it's their business model, after all. My point is that this is a tone deaf way to try and improve their bottom line, and from my POV it's a failure.
The biggest problem that I have with this event, and with similar recent content, is that they don't reward players with the best gear, or even the most skill, as much as they reward players with the best friends' lists.
Well, I really love this game and I solo mostly and do guild events. I like how I can solo queue for a dungeon/skirmish when I feel like it. I was excited about this event, but 3 days into it, I still had no group with 13k. I was able to get up to 14.5k and finally got into a group that only wanted a OP devo and we were successful x5. I haven't been able to get in one since.
I do believe that a queue should have been used for this event. The 16k+ players can set up their own teams and play. The rest of us can queue up and at least have a chance at these rewards. If you complete the first round, then the pug team can vote on whether or not to continue. I think many pugs might just do one round to earn the trinkets for the chests. Some might go for more rounds to get coins. Thing is, everyone that wants to participate in the event and grind coins/trinkets has a chance to do so. Listening to chat about people being kicked out of the party gets old and frustrating.
On a side note: Only being able to get 1 chapter/event is harsh. If this event only comes around once a year, it would literally take 4 years to get the neck and waist piece. They won't even be viable gear pieces in 4 years. I don't see why we can't at least try to farm the coins to get the items. Why do we have to wait for the event to come around again to get another chapter so we can finally get the item? Unless I read the Minstrel wrong, this is a horrible grind.
That's my .2 cents, cheers
3
feanor70118Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,170Arc User
Solo queueing worked fine before mod 6. Everything in the game, of course, was better before mod 6.
There is unquestionably a demand from some players for really hard content to beat their heads against. So my opinion is, they should be able to opt in to the game in its current form with all the ludicrous power and HP creep, instadeath and so on. Everyone else should get a game that's scaled back to pre-mod 6 value with little or no HP in armor stats. And the rewards should be exactly the same for both.
I'm in a level 20 guild and it's still hard to form parties for anything above RIQ level. I have no interest in the becoming even worse or even staying as is.
I would much rather be able to welcome some 11k lowbie into FBI and shepherd them through the way I would have done in a pre-mod 6 dungeon. But unfortunately I barely even bother with the RAQ anymore because I'm sick to death of interminably long runs and failures caused by undergeared people who think that the sarcastically low IL gate for the content gives them the right to waste others' time there.
People solo multiplayer content all the time: bosses, challenges, dungeons, whatever - so long as the game permits it. Making something soloable doesn't mean changing the content. The highest value gear shouldn't be locked behind a group effort. It should be locked behind the most difficult content, and I don't see any particularly good reason why anyone shouldn't be allowed to attempt that.
I think it's hilarious that some of you deride people so for playing multiplayer content on their own, when you're the ones who go off and make loadouts with obscenely high movement so you can hop into queues and leave everyone else in your dust. That's solo play - or at the very least, highly antisocial.
In short you want soloing the game and get same good gear other players can get only with combined effort of 5 or even 10 of them working together?
I doubt it even cross your mind that if that was the case no1 would even think about creating any party and grouping for anything?
What would be your next demand? Legendary mounts dropping from mobs or something?
And last but not least - no one is forbiding you to create a private 1 man party and join most of the content latest event included.
Furthermore - you complain about high movement builds, but it simply means that you actually do join queues and content with other players otherwie you wouldnt know that happening. And then again who forbids you to make similar build?
It isn’t always about getting the same or better gear as everyone else – most of the time it’s about just being able to play new content that hasn’t already been run to death.
For instance the introduction of Acquisitions Incorporated was specifically designed to be solo friendly... but it seems for every solo friendly event like AI, there are four or five introductions of new content specifically designed for multi-player participation, at least by those who can’t or haven’t yet obtained some of the BIS or near BIS gear that allows them to go to and survive in some of those areas.
I’ve been playing casually for years, but after a couple experiences of spending money to buy or spending hours grinding to obtain top of the line gear – only to see it become obsolete or nearly so with the introduction of the next Mod, I’m less inclined to repeat my previous mistake and by that I mean specifically spending money to buy or hours, days or weeks grinding for gear only to have it become virtually worthless within a what I consider a relatively short period of time.
So...now you ask for a game stagnation?
You dont like that there is a content gated with team play - OK.
(its MMO game so maybe its not a bad idea that having many players around to give them some job to do together?)
You dont like that gear you are getting with effort/money gets obsolete with time - OK
(lets not forget you are casual so in short you dont play too much but in the same time you wanna be best in slot all the time or what? or want a 1 module a year to let you keep up to date longer? )
Sorry m8 but I have to ask - is there anything you like about this game?
Not that I am ok with everyting in this game - far from it - I hate moments when I finish polishing my toon moments before new mod hits a server and I need to start over - but I ma ok with that - thats how it works in MMOs - but you, ......you seems to try to undermine this game foundations.
Sure lets change it into single player game when you always gona be up to date with gear and do not need any help - but let me enter this game just to be a part of a background for you....living part.
Absolutely agree with OP. It's not just neverwinter for sure, but this forcing casual solo players to group is not compatible with the majority of todays casual gamers.
I don't want to: 1. waste the time getting a group. 2. be at the mercy of people I do not know for completion. 3. be forced to 'play' the way other people want. 4. have to put up with the smell of other unwashed players.
I am not saying grouping should be removed, but Massively multiplayer DOES NOT mean forced to group to get newest/best rewards. It is one of the things that explains the turn-down in the MMORPG market.
While we're at it, the stupidly overpowered boons for guilds is another thing that should go. Guilds should get no stat bonuses over solo players. Another thing that alienates a lot of casual players once they find out the unfair advantage guild members get.
Absolutely agree with OP. It's not just neverwinter for sure, but this forcing casual solo players to group is not compatible with the majority of todays casual gamers.
I don't want to: 1. waste the time getting a group. 2. be at the mercy of people I do not know for completion. 3. be forced to 'play' the way other people want. 4. have to put up with the smell of other unwashed players.
I am not saying grouping should be removed, but Massively multiplayer DOES NOT mean forced to group to get newest/best rewards. It is one of the things that explains the turn-down in the MMORPG market.
While we're at it, the stupidly overpowered boons for guilds is another thing that should go. Guilds should get no stat bonuses over solo players. Another thing that alienates a lot of casual players once they find out the unfair advantage guild members get.
u forgot to write /s at the end, u can thank me later^^
I am not saying grouping should be removed, but Massively multiplayer DOES NOT mean forced to group to get newest/best rewards. It is one of the things that explains the turn-down in the MMORPG market.
I don't get on "social gaming" to be anti-social, but a lot of the time it is just me doing things alone. I invite strangers to tag along with me or I accept offers to join groups. But I agree, I don't want to be forced into a party. This content, as I said early in this thread, should be for all and not the extreme top or bottom layer.
After mod 16 they now have no excuse for not providing same content for low and high il players as they are bragging about new scaling system
There are more than BIS players in this game RIP Real Tiamat, RIP Real Demogorgon RIP real Temple of the spider. Why remove non bis content to give to bis players ???? FORCING the majority of your player base to play 4 mod old dungeons and trial will have a bad result on player base Changes are getting so bad i would rather prefer no new changes (RIP ICE FISHING in winter fest)
After mod 16 they now have no excuse for not providing same content for low and high il players as they are bragging about new scaling system
Nope. Its gona be end game content one way or another mobs/bosses there gona be hardest to get rid of them there.
Scalling - according to devs announcemnt - do not mean your toon gona be elevated in stats to the point it can handle things alone out there. Scalling means that the more powerfull opponent you will meet the more trouble to (for example) citically hit them would be. Without improving your toons powers/statistics you wont be more effective - and no, game wont scale you up for a content (apart of some events). So, any one playing solo gona had more and more hard time with every new vilable map/content. Now add removing of lifesteal, cap on crit etc and a lot of end game solo players wont be able to solo dungeons, like they do now.
So if you are solo player - you got literraly 2 options - wallet-->ZEN--->AD-->better gear and enchants. OR grind rAD form heroic encounters to the death, to get those 3KK AD/month to improve your toon.
IF not solo - well apart of 2 ways mentioned above you can also group up and do some dungeons to try your luck for a good reward.
In short current state of the game get into a point that 1 character - if properly builded and equiped (high/very high IL) could do a lot of things by himself some dungeons included. After MOD 16 its gone for good.
And if you guys belive that devs are going to release some single player content here - thats not happend before and wont happen ever.
I posted the link to the Official Neverwinter Wikipedia where it specifically defines "Tutorial Quests", yet it appears some believe they are so expert on the subject they have an entirely different definition of tutorial quests... OK, I'll just let it stand at that.
Also online there are several webpages defining MMO and MMORPG both of which seem to agree that those platforms CAN be played by multiples of characters in the same areas, but I see no designation where the discriptors say MMO's or MMORPG's MUST be payed
People solo multiplayer content all the time: bosses, challenges, dungeons, whatever - so long as the game permits it. Making something soloable doesn't mean changing the content. The highest value gear shouldn't be locked behind a group effort. It should be locked behind the most difficult content, and I don't see any particularly good reason why anyone shouldn't be allowed to attempt that.
I think it's hilarious that some of you deride people so for playing multiplayer content on their own, when you're the ones who go off and make loadouts with obscenely high movement so you can hop into queues and leave everyone else in your dust. That's solo play - or at the very least, highly antisocial.
In short you want soloing the game and get same good gear other players can get only with combined effort of 5 or even 10 of them working together?
I doubt it even cross your mind that if that was the case no1 would even think about creating any party and grouping for anything?
What would be your next demand? Legendary mounts dropping from mobs or something?
And last but not least - no one is forbiding you to create a private 1 man party and join most of the content latest event included.
Furthermore - you complain about high movement builds, but it simply means that you actually do join queues and content with other players otherwie you wouldnt know that happening. And then again who forbids you to make similar build?
It isn’t always about getting the same or better gear as everyone else – most of the time it’s about just being able to play new content that hasn’t already been run to death.
For instance the introduction of Acquisitions Incorporated was specifically designed to be solo friendly... but it seems for every solo friendly event like AI, there are four or five introductions of new content specifically designed for multi-player participation, at least by those who can’t or haven’t yet obtained some of the BIS or near BIS gear that allows them to go to and survive in some of those areas.
I’ve been playing casually for years, but after a couple experiences of spending money to buy or spending hours grinding to obtain top of the line gear – only to see it become obsolete or nearly so with the introduction of the next Mod, I’m less inclined to repeat my previous mistake and by that I mean specifically spending money to buy or hours, days or weeks grinding for gear only to have it become virtually worthless within a what I consider a relatively short period of time.
So...now you ask for a game stagnation?
You dont like that there is a content gated with team play - OK.
(its MMO game so maybe its not a bad idea that having many players around to give them some job to do together?)
You dont like that gear you are getting with effort/money gets obsolete with time - OK
(lets not forget you are casual so in short you dont play too much but in the same time you wanna be best in slot all the time or what? or want a 1 module a year to let you keep up to date longer? )
Sorry m8 but I have to ask - is there anything you like about this game?
Not that I am ok with everyting in this game - far from it - I hate moments when I finish polishing my toon moments before new mod hits a server and I need to start over - but I ma ok with that - thats how it works in MMOs - but you, ......you seems to try to undermine this game foundations.
Sure lets change it into single player game when you always gona be up to date with gear and do not need any help - but let me enter this game just to be a part of a background for you....living part.
Actually I said nothing about any of that, as a matter of fact I considered my comments to be the opposite of "game stagnation", which I see as pandering to a small group of existing veteran game 'whales' who already have high rated gear and are more easily able to grind for more while the majority of new and casual players appear to be running into a brick wall as a means of obtaining better high rated gear unless they dedicate hours, weeks, months grinding the same available content repeatedly.
In what world is having solo "new game content" available considered "stagnation" instead of innovation and progress?
And I never said I "don't like group play" content, I merely said that there appears to be more releases in favor of group play than solo play which seems to be shutting out a major faction of players, those who prefer to play solo from having new content to keep them engaged in Neverwinter beyond a certain point.
Finally I never said it is about getting BIS gear and again I indicated the exact opposite when I posted:
It isn’t always about getting the same or better gear as everyone else – most of the time it’s about just being able to play new content that hasn’t already been run to death.
So if you’re done trying to misinterpret my post with words i didn’t say, let’s get back to the topic at hand…
Face it, whether or not anyone cares to admit it there are at least two major factions of playstyle those who currently have the means, opportunity and desire to play in groups and those who presently don't have the the means, opportunity and desire to play in groups...
Releasing new content that appears to be heavily favorable to any one faction will at the same time discourage the other faction from staying with Neverwinter. It doesn't take a great deal of intelligence to recognize that.
Releasing content that appears to be considerate of both factions of playstyle will mollify players of both kinds of gaming preference, those who prefer and are able to play with others and those who prefer and are less able to play with groups.
I've been playing Neverwinter almost since the beta release and that would mean for years... If I didn't deeply care for the game I would have been gone long before now. My primary concern isn't about my personal or any one else's personal preference of playstyle but the ability of Neverwinter to attract new players and retain players regardless of their preferred playstyle.
I am no more in favor of primarially solo content than I am primarially group oriented content just what is percieved as an equatible balance of new content that seems to recognize both preferred playstyles.
Face it, whether or not anyone cares to admit it there are at least two major factions of playstyle those who currently have the means, opportunity and desire to play in groups and those who presently don't have the the means, opportunity and desire to play in groups...
That is the only sentence in your entire post worth reading. Rest of it is pretty much a wishful thinking
Reason is very very simple. SInce the begining of MMOs there is a strugle to try to make happy both groups you mentioned. No1 succeded. And for a very simple reason - if for example you would release too much content for one group - second would be disapointed/bored and quit.
Another isuue is rewarding for in game activities. If that would be equal that would significantly favourise a solo content player - for obvious reasons like you dont need to wait for a tank etc to be able to even participate in game content and you are never dependant on any other player. On the other hand better rewards for team players or gating better gear behind not soloable content harms solo players faction as they cannot get usually best avilable gear. There is no solution to that.
Just imagine that for example Castle Never is avilable as solo and team dungeon.
Would you expect a reward for completition? Sure. Same for solo player as for team played one - I guess (thats what is it all about) - so how to make that dungeon different for both factions be happy? Same RNG seems fair, but then again solo player can join it any time he wants. Team player need a full team - so its not fair. So maybe different time needed to acomplish that dungeon. That wont work either. Cos if for example solo player would need an hour to complete dungeon and group would need 20 minutes - its not fair. And so on and so on.
Every equalising move in that matter is just a pushing a game into single player mode, or team player mode and obviously loosing players of one faction for good.
And there is another -this time technical issue. Single player games - in general offer limited play time - sure depending on a type - but it doesnt change anything. Lets hold to RPG games. Sure you can roll yourself a different character or make different in game decisions but you eventually will run out of options. Some add ons or DLCs can prolong such product life but not that much. So you finishing one game and move to another after 5-50 hours of playing (just asumtion here). Now any MMO game is based around and idea that gamers playing together are in fact creating content on the fly on a game environment basis - as there is no 2 similar situations or reactions. So even a little content with added human factor can prolong a game livespan significantly. And thats a point when developer need to choose as well - more - less demanding team content or more demanding solo content.
I guess we could discuss it for ages, but even a putting personal preferences aside its a kind of a stalemate here. Only option to break it is when the devs will find out witch players faction is more numerous and pay more real money. So they start doing more for that faction to keep it pleased and paying. But it will end up with destroying another faction, or at least a great disbalance between them.
If you find out a way out this dilemma you could get yourself rich selling such solution to MMOs developers.
I couldn't reads entire discussion, but I kind of get the point.
I, too, can see the points and arguments of both people who play solo-ish as well as people who can easily complete things.
Problem is not in the content itself, but in the way content was excluding the potential run for lower IL players. This is first time that I have seen an event that caters to the top players and I do not see it as a bad thing. It was a lot of fun for me. But don't think even for a moment that higher IL players were finding it easy to join into a party! Oh, no. It was not like that at all unless you already have a team of people you usually play with. The event was hard, obtaining items was not as hard. If you missed your chance to get items this year, who's to say that another year won't be the same? Or that a shop will get introduced where you could change something? When me and my girl played CR for the first time, she went as OP and had literally 13K IL. Died ONCE in CR and tanked it all on my que as we were playing in the same room. I went with 17-18K OPs and 17-18K GFs who were as good as my old shoe and entire team kept dying because those same people never thought about trying to tank and protect the team. And those guys tried to blame the team for dying, that's priceless level of arrogance. I am sure that even if you are a lower IL player, you can still complete the event. Maybe not as fast, maybe not on top level, but still you could at least get something out of it. Some people have been playing for a long time and know how to run such dungeons, they understand mechanics and could possibly skip every fight unless it's boss or important segment in the speedrun, but you could still manage to do an event if you knew how. Keep your distance, get a crazy good OP with bane, get a gwf with prominence/lightning, DC who will buff and move slowly from a group to a group hoping that you won't get lag nor disconnect. It was a hard event, but it wasn't for everyone. I'm sorry, but that is the truth. Wait your turn the next year. Or upgrade yourself by summer when another one will emerge.
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
lmao at all the anger from ppl whining about how its an mmo and shut up why should you be able to solo it.
first of all some of us are up to and love the challenge of solo play. is it our fault that the best games are designed around mmo style so they can suck your money out of your wallet en masse? we go where the game is and that led us here, going it alone because its harder,and thats what we like.
we didnt whine while you progressed more easily than us by grouping for everything, that was your choice to make. we just played the game our way. and when someone has the audacity to suggest more content for a small, but much larger portion of the game than you would guess from the ppl i talk to, a bunch of trolls whine and cry about it.
its a simple suggestion. if you really have to troll someone head back to zone chat and do it there, all he asked was a simple, legit question, asking for a bit of love from the devs.
So let me ask you... since this is a Multi-player game, have you or do you still seek or join a party when doing anything in Neverwinter? Take for instance professions, trade or purchases...
No? Maybe because despite Neverwinter being a MMO there is some content that is specifically designed and intended to be played solo. Otherwise every bit of content would require players to function in a group or multi-player mode.
A MMO merely means there are other players in the game - not that one must constrain themselves to play in group or multi-player mode.
Think about it.
So, if there is *specifically* solo content - and I think you're kinda stretching it with professions, but our judges will allow it - why is it a problem for there to be specific group content? You can get all you need to solo easily simply by soloing. You don't *need* items from group content to go any further.
As I said earlier - the level of skill and coordination, as well as the risk of failure goes up exponentially once you start expanding your group beyond one player. You're no longer simply relying on your own skills, but those of 4 other players, and all it will take is one of the 5 in the group to slip, and you could be looking at failure. The rewards for that increased risk are greater than those for someone simply playing on their own, and not taking the inherent risk that can come from group play.
Comments
"Solo players" often get treated like there's this binary state where you either belong to knitting clubs, Eagles Lodges, church groups, and have bunches of friends, otherwise you must be some anti-social cave troll that never leaves the house and even orders your groceries online so you never have to see another human being that then complains when a human delivers the groceries. That's horse dookey.
I can't speak for every solo player in an MMO (that's part of the fun of being a solo player), but I think most (all?) of us like being in a living environment with other people around that we can interact with if and when we *choose* to. I doubt there are any of the theoretical "cave trolls" I mentioned above that do play MMOs. I doubt most (any?) of us have a problem with group content existing or with pugging. The rub is when the game tries to strongarm and coerce people into interacting in invasive ways. I'm not talking about doing a dungeon, skirmish, or trial. In this case, I'm talking about having to go through the process of manually pre-making a group, having to approve/reject other people and/or getting approval/rejection from other people in order to even be permitted by the game engine to do something that should be puggable.
I personally don't give a hamster's HAMSTER about the gear, I'd just like to see some long lost content that should have never been lost and I don't feel like trying (and likely failing) to get the approval of IL and party-meta gatekeepers in order to do so. I also don't feel like having to join knitting clubs, Eagles Lodges, church groups, and make bunches of friends just to avoid *some* of the gatekeeping. Thirdly, I don't feel like being told to just stay in my cave and order my groceries online if I don't want to do those other things. I don't think I'm alone.
Firstly, I don't see anyone objecting for it to be in the queue, as it should be.
Secondly, in this, and the other threads like it that pop up from time to time and where we usually meet, many of the solo players do have problem with the dungeons, skirmishes, etc.. as the source of the gear, and as the main content in the game. You can see some of it in this thread right now.
Thirdly, while you don't care about the gear: The original complaint is that the best gear is only accessible as group and not the problem with the group formation. And with that some of the derived discussion.
And last but not least, when typically solo players are discussed, as far as I see, those are not like you, who does group content, but mostly people who do not do group content.
As for players ramping up their movement speed. I don't complain about any builds whatsoever, but I do think it's really funny when I see people sneering at solo players in an mmo when any number of them go off and build loadouts that ensure they don't have to play with anyone - most particularly in the leveling queue and ctas. I find it just a little ironic.
After a player exits the Sleeping Dragon Bridge and completes the Theft of the Crown quest, the bulk of the tutorial is over and the actual game content begins,
There are also Character Progression Quests where players may be assigned tasks to learn how to do things, but these continue up to and include level 70 with Epic Dungeons and Epic Adventuring... so unless someone considers the entire game a "tutorial", up to and including level 70 - no, I'm not just talking about the tutorial. So let me ask you... since this is a Multi-player game, have you or do you still seek or join a party when doing anything in Neverwinter? Take for instance professions, trade or purchases...
No? Maybe because despite Neverwinter being a MMO there is some content that is specifically designed and intended to be played solo. Otherwise every bit of content would require players to function in a group or multi-player mode.
A MMO merely means there are other players in the game - not that one must
constrain themselves to play in group or multi-player mode.
Think about it.
For instance the introduction of Acquisitions Incorporated was specifically designed to be solo friendly... but it seems for every solo friendly event like AI, there are four or five introductions of new content specifically designed for multi-player participation, at least by those who can’t or haven’t yet obtained some of the BIS or near BIS gear that allows them to go to and survive in some of those areas.
I’ve been playing casually for years, but after a couple experiences of spending money to buy or spending hours grinding to obtain top of the line gear – only to see it become obsolete or nearly so with the introduction of the next Mod, I’m less inclined to repeat my previous mistake and by that I mean specifically spending money to buy or hours, days or weeks grinding for gear only to have it become virtually worthless within a what I consider a relatively short period of time.
And most importantly the influence of mistakes, where the content is extremely forgiving in terms of bad choices, aka tutorials, vs not as forgiving aka the actual game. Up to max level you can gear anyway you want, and make random feat choices, it will not influence much. Professions, trade and purchases... Interesting that you mention those, because indeed those are best done as group activity, and designed as a chain of people working towards a goal.
I will not do maps on my own, other friend do, we trade, I craft, someone else purchases the result. The organization and separation of those parts is indeed a group activity, more so when people help each other from the start with guild marks and materials and so on. ofc, you can do it by yourself, but like any other group content, it will be much more difficult for you. Designed to as group content doesn't mean one is forced to do it a such or the same with solo content, designed as solo dailies do not bar anyone from grouping for those, as many actually do. It means that it is balanced in terms of time spent and rewards for a certain type of player behavior.
You can queue to any dungeon on your own, but it doesn't mean the game is designed for you to succeed that way, or even give you a fair chance (at the same gear level as a group).
But sure, there is content that is intended to be done solo, most of the dailies are such. So here you go. You believe that all content should be designed for single players? I'm sorry to shatter those dreams, but most content will always be designed as group content, simply because it's a retention mechanism, people keep people in the game, not the content on it's own.
It is not some secret, it was studied ad nauseum
https://www.raphkoster.com/2019/01/30/what-drives-retention/
https://massivelyop.com/2015/04/12/mmo-mechanics-is-a-strong-community-a-barrier-to-exit-mechanic/
Related:
MMO dictates design concepts, target audience, and multiple concerns and restrictions. SaaS dictates retention model vs the one time buy for triple A single players.
It is naive and self serving considering MMO as just the same but with others doing their own thing. The core game design for single player games and MMO are a night and day, and a modern MMOs are mostly oriented around group content, and various social interaction direct or indirect.
I do think that on the whole - whether purposely or incidentally, Neverwinter's become at least a little friendlier to solo players than it was a year ago, though in this particular instance, maybe not so much. But it sounds like this is an aggravation for players all across the board, not just one type.
And, sometimes I believe that is what some people are meaning by "solo" content. That a pre-made "private" group is having to be made.
I do believe that a queue should have been used for this event. The 16k+ players can set up their own teams and play. The rest of us can queue up and at least have a chance at these rewards. If you complete the first round, then the pug team can vote on whether or not to continue. I think many pugs might just do one round to earn the trinkets for the chests. Some might go for more rounds to get coins. Thing is, everyone that wants to participate in the event and grind coins/trinkets has a chance to do so. Listening to chat about people being kicked out of the party gets old and frustrating.
On a side note: Only being able to get 1 chapter/event is harsh. If this event only comes around once a year, it would literally take 4 years to get the neck and waist piece. They won't even be viable gear pieces in 4 years. I don't see why we can't at least try to farm the coins to get the items. Why do we have to wait for the event to come around again to get another chapter so we can finally get the item? Unless I read the Minstrel wrong, this is a horrible grind.
That's my .2 cents, cheers
There is unquestionably a demand from some players for really hard content to beat their heads against.
So my opinion is, they should be able to opt in to the game in its current form with all the ludicrous power and HP creep, instadeath and so on. Everyone else should get a game that's scaled back to pre-mod 6 value with little or no HP in armor stats. And the rewards should be exactly the same for both.
I'm in a level 20 guild and it's still hard to form parties for anything above RIQ level. I have no interest in the becoming even worse or even staying as is.
I would much rather be able to welcome some 11k lowbie into FBI and shepherd them through the way I would have done in a pre-mod 6 dungeon. But unfortunately I barely even bother with the RAQ anymore because I'm sick to death of interminably long runs and failures caused by undergeared people who think that the sarcastically low IL gate for the content gives them the right to waste others' time there.
You dont like that there is a content gated with team play - OK.
(its MMO game so maybe its not a bad idea that having many players around to give them some job to do together?)
You dont like that gear you are getting with effort/money gets obsolete with time - OK
(lets not forget you are casual so in short you dont play too much but in the same time you wanna be best in slot all the time or what? or want a 1 module a year to let you keep up to date longer? )
Sorry m8 but I have to ask - is there anything you like about this game?
Not that I am ok with everyting in this game - far from it - I hate moments when I finish polishing my toon moments before new mod hits a server and I need to start over - but I ma ok with that - thats how it works in MMOs - but you, ......you seems to try to undermine this game foundations.
Sure lets change it into single player game when you always gona be up to date with gear and do not need any help - but let me enter this game just to be a part of a background for you....living part.
I don't want to:
1. waste the time getting a group.
2. be at the mercy of people I do not know for completion.
3. be forced to 'play' the way other people want.
4. have to put up with the smell of other unwashed players.
I am not saying grouping should be removed, but Massively multiplayer DOES NOT mean forced to group to get newest/best rewards. It is one of the things that explains the turn-down in the MMORPG market.
While we're at it, the stupidly overpowered boons for guilds is another thing that should go. Guilds should get no stat bonuses over solo players. Another thing that alienates a lot of casual players once they find out the unfair advantage guild members get.
I really loved this one; Have Fun!
RIP Real Tiamat, RIP Real Demogorgon RIP real Temple of the spider. Why remove non bis content to give to bis players ????
FORCING the majority of your player base to play 4 mod old dungeons and trial will have a bad result on player base
Changes are getting so bad i would rather prefer no new changes (RIP ICE FISHING in winter fest)
Scalling - according to devs announcemnt - do not mean your toon gona be elevated in stats to the point it can handle things alone out there. Scalling means that the more powerfull opponent you will meet the more trouble to (for example) citically hit them would be. Without improving your toons powers/statistics you wont be more effective - and no, game wont scale you up for a content (apart of some events). So, any one playing solo gona had more and more hard time with every new vilable map/content. Now add removing of lifesteal, cap on crit etc and a lot of end game solo players wont be able to solo dungeons, like they do now.
So if you are solo player - you got literraly 2 options - wallet-->ZEN--->AD-->better gear and enchants.
OR grind rAD form heroic encounters to the death, to get those 3KK AD/month to improve your toon.
IF not solo - well apart of 2 ways mentioned above you can also group up and do some dungeons to try your luck for a good reward.
In short current state of the game get into a point that 1 character - if properly builded and equiped (high/very high IL) could do a lot of things by himself some dungeons included. After MOD 16 its gone for good.
And if you guys belive that devs are going to release some single player content here - thats not happend before and wont happen ever.
I posted the link to the Official Neverwinter Wikipedia where it specifically defines "Tutorial Quests", yet it appears some believe they are so expert on the subject they have an entirely different definition of tutorial quests... OK, I'll just let it stand at that.
Also online there are several webpages defining MMO and MMORPG both of which seem to agree that those platforms CAN be played by multiples of characters in the same areas, but I see no designation where the discriptors say MMO's or MMORPG's MUST be payed Actually I said nothing about any of that, as a matter of fact I considered my comments to be the opposite of "game stagnation", which I see as pandering to a small group of existing veteran game 'whales' who already have high rated gear and are more easily able to grind for more while the majority of new and casual players appear to be running into a brick wall as a means of obtaining better high rated gear unless they dedicate hours, weeks, months grinding the same available content repeatedly.
In what world is having solo "new game content" available considered "stagnation" instead of innovation and progress?
And I never said I "don't like group play" content, I merely said that there appears to be more releases in favor of group play than solo play which seems to be shutting out a major faction of players, those who prefer to play solo from having new content to keep them engaged in Neverwinter beyond a certain point.
Finally I never said it is about getting BIS gear and again I indicated the exact opposite when I posted: So if you’re done trying to misinterpret my post with words i didn’t say, let’s get back to the topic at hand…
Face it, whether or not anyone cares to admit it there are at least two major factions of playstyle those who currently have the means, opportunity and desire to play in groups and those who presently don't have the the means, opportunity and desire to play in groups...
Releasing new content that appears to be heavily favorable to any one faction will at the same time discourage the other faction from staying with Neverwinter. It doesn't take a great deal of intelligence to recognize that.
Releasing content that appears to be considerate of both factions of playstyle will mollify players of both kinds of gaming preference, those who prefer and are able to play with others and those who prefer and are less able to play with groups.
I've been playing Neverwinter almost since the beta release and that would mean for years... If I didn't deeply care for the game I would have been gone long before now. My primary concern isn't about my personal or any one else's personal preference of playstyle but the ability of Neverwinter to attract new players and retain players regardless of their preferred playstyle.
I am no more in favor of primarially solo content than I am primarially group oriented content just what is percieved as an equatible balance of new content that seems to recognize both preferred playstyles.
Reason is very very simple. SInce the begining of MMOs there is a strugle to try to make happy both groups you mentioned. No1 succeded. And for a very simple reason - if for example you would release too much content for one group - second would be disapointed/bored and quit.
Another isuue is rewarding for in game activities.
If that would be equal that would significantly favourise a solo content player - for obvious reasons like you dont need to wait for a tank etc to be able to even participate in game content and you are never dependant on any other player.
On the other hand better rewards for team players or gating better gear behind not soloable content harms solo players faction as they cannot get usually best avilable gear. There is no solution to that.
Just imagine that for example Castle Never is avilable as solo and team dungeon.
Would you expect a reward for completition? Sure. Same for solo player as for team played one - I guess (thats what is it all about) - so how to make that dungeon different for both factions be happy? Same RNG seems fair, but then again solo player can join it any time he wants. Team player need a full team - so its not fair. So maybe different time needed to acomplish that dungeon. That wont work either. Cos if for example solo player would need an hour to complete dungeon and group would need 20 minutes - its not fair. And so on and so on.
Every equalising move in that matter is just a pushing a game into single player mode, or team player mode and obviously loosing players of one faction for good.
And there is another -this time technical issue. Single player games - in general offer limited play time - sure depending on a type - but it doesnt change anything. Lets hold to RPG games. Sure you can roll yourself a different character or make different in game decisions but you eventually will run out of options. Some add ons or DLCs can prolong such product life but not that much. So you finishing one game and move to another after 5-50 hours of playing (just asumtion here). Now any MMO game is based around and idea that gamers playing together are in fact creating content on the fly on a game environment basis - as there is no 2 similar situations or reactions. So even a little content with added human factor can prolong a game livespan significantly. And thats a point when developer need to choose as well - more - less demanding team content or more demanding solo content.
I guess we could discuss it for ages, but even a putting personal preferences aside its a kind of a stalemate here. Only option to break it is when the devs will find out witch players faction is more numerous and pay more real money. So they start doing more for that faction to keep it pleased and paying. But it will end up with destroying another faction, or at least a great disbalance between them.
If you find out a way out this dilemma you could get yourself rich selling such solution to MMOs developers.
I, too, can see the points and arguments of both people who play solo-ish as well as people who can easily complete things.
Problem is not in the content itself, but in the way content was excluding the potential run for lower IL players.
This is first time that I have seen an event that caters to the top players and I do not see it as a bad thing. It was a lot of fun for me.
But don't think even for a moment that higher IL players were finding it easy to join into a party! Oh, no. It was not like that at all unless you already have a team of people you usually play with.
The event was hard, obtaining items was not as hard. If you missed your chance to get items this year, who's to say that another year won't be the same? Or that a shop will get introduced where you could change something?
When me and my girl played CR for the first time, she went as OP and had literally 13K IL. Died ONCE in CR and tanked it all on my que as we were playing in the same room.
I went with 17-18K OPs and 17-18K GFs who were as good as my old shoe and entire team kept dying because those same people never thought about trying to tank and protect the team. And those guys tried to blame the team for dying, that's priceless level of arrogance.
I am sure that even if you are a lower IL player, you can still complete the event. Maybe not as fast, maybe not on top level, but still you could at least get something out of it.
Some people have been playing for a long time and know how to run such dungeons, they understand mechanics and could possibly skip every fight unless it's boss or important segment in the speedrun, but you could still manage to do an event if you knew how.
Keep your distance, get a crazy good OP with bane, get a gwf with prominence/lightning, DC who will buff and move slowly from a group to a group hoping that you won't get lag nor disconnect.
It was a hard event, but it wasn't for everyone. I'm sorry, but that is the truth. Wait your turn the next year. Or upgrade yourself by summer when another one will emerge.
first of all some of us are up to and love the challenge of solo play. is it our fault that the best games are designed around mmo style so they can suck your money out of your wallet en masse? we go where the game is and that led us here, going it alone because its harder,and thats what we like.
we didnt whine while you progressed more easily than us by grouping for everything, that was your choice to make. we just played the game our way. and when someone has the audacity to suggest more content for a small, but much larger portion of the game than you would guess from the ppl i talk to, a bunch of trolls whine and cry about it.
its a simple suggestion. if you really have to troll someone head back to zone chat and do it there, all he asked was a simple, legit question, asking for a bit of love from the devs.
As I said earlier - the level of skill and coordination, as well as the risk of failure goes up exponentially once you start expanding your group beyond one player. You're no longer simply relying on your own skills, but those of 4 other players, and all it will take is one of the 5 in the group to slip, and you could be looking at failure. The rewards for that increased risk are greater than those for someone simply playing on their own, and not taking the inherent risk that can come from group play.