Much farther back than complaints about people getting kicked from random queues, there were complaints from some players about people running various content, only to reach the end, defeat the boss and be booted - presumably because after they were kicked, a friend or someone's alt would then be invited to the party to scoop up the reward. The only one I was ever personally familiar with was the Blacklake skirmish, back when the Blacklake skirmish was just another way for a lot of players to make some quantity AD's.
It's not like some players being improperly kicked is a new thing with shorter vote to kick timers...
Like you those I think are intentionally AFK and leechers tend to upset me... but then since I don't really have any way to tell if a person is actually AFK, leeching or might be having connectivity problems that makes it appear they are attempting to exploit the game, I still much prefer the system as it is currently as opposed to what it used to be like when the kick timers were shorter and players got booted for what others perceived to be a problem, but was in fact do to no impropriety on the part of the alleged offender.
But that's just my 2¢
Are you're saying you can invite anybody you choose if you kick a guy now?
There needs to be atleast 2-3 other people that needs to decide that somebody should be kicked, which is not very likely to happen with where I'm asking for it to be made possible. Moreover, these are 2-3 minute runs, they don't provide much room for any agendas.
Probably the simplest way to discourage the AFKers is to set some minimum damage that you MUST do to get credit. For all the tanks and healers out there it can be very low .... but people doing zero damage the entire skirmish (or even dungeon for that matter) should get zero rewards. I ran CTA several times last weekend where my OP was the ONLY one who even bothered to leave the campfire and go kill stuff ... and one group of AFKers included a 19K GWF who was just sitting there waiting for my OP tank to kill everything ...
Much farther back than complaints about people getting kicked from random queues, there were complaints from some players about people running various content, only to reach the end, defeat the boss and be booted - presumably because after they were kicked, a friend or someone's alt would then be invited to the party to scoop up the reward. The only one I was ever personally familiar with was the Blacklake skirmish, back when the Blacklake skirmish was just another way for a lot of players to make some quantity AD's.
It's not like some players being improperly kicked is a new thing with shorter vote to kick timers...
Like you those I think are intentionally AFK and leechers tend to upset me... but then since I don't really have any way to tell if a person is actually AFK, leeching or might be having connectivity problems that makes it appear they are attempting to exploit the game, I still much prefer the system as it is currently as opposed to what it used to be like when the kick timers were shorter and players got booted for what others perceived to be a problem, but was in fact do to no impropriety on the part of the alleged offender.
But that's just my 2¢
Are you're saying you can invite anybody you choose if you kick a guy now?
There needs to be atleast 2-3 other people that needs to decide that somebody should be kicked, which is not very likely to happen with where I'm asking for it to be made possible. Moreover, these are 2-3 minute runs, they don't provide much room for any agendas.
The Party leader can invite other players to fill empty slots, yes.
0
frozenfirevrMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,475Community Moderator
Much farther back than complaints about people getting kicked from random queues, there were complaints from some players about people running various content, only to reach the end, defeat the boss and be booted - presumably because after they were kicked, a friend or someone's alt would then be invited to the party to scoop up the reward. The only one I was ever personally familiar with was the Blacklake skirmish, back when the Blacklake skirmish was just another way for a lot of players to make some quantity AD's.
It's not like some players being improperly kicked is a new thing with shorter vote to kick timers...
Like you those I think are intentionally AFK and leechers tend to upset me... but then since I don't really have any way to tell if a person is actually AFK, leeching or might be having connectivity problems that makes it appear they are attempting to exploit the game, I still much prefer the system as it is currently as opposed to what it used to be like when the kick timers were shorter and players got booted for what others perceived to be a problem, but was in fact do to no impropriety on the part of the alleged offender.
But that's just my 2¢
Are you're saying you can invite anybody you choose if you kick a guy now?
There needs to be atleast 2-3 other people that needs to decide that somebody should be kicked, which is not very likely to happen with where I'm asking for it to be made possible. Moreover, these are 2-3 minute runs, they don't provide much room for any agendas.
The Party leader can invite other players to fill empty slots, yes.
In public queues?! If I was able to kick somebody from CTA, I can invite a friend to that run?
Much farther back than complaints about people getting kicked from random queues, there were complaints from some players about people running various content, only to reach the end, defeat the boss and be booted - presumably because after they were kicked, a friend or someone's alt would then be invited to the party to scoop up the reward. The only one I was ever personally familiar with was the Blacklake skirmish, back when the Blacklake skirmish was just another way for a lot of players to make some quantity AD's.
It's not like some players being improperly kicked is a new thing with shorter vote to kick timers...
Like you those I think are intentionally AFK and leechers tend to upset me... but then since I don't really have any way to tell if a person is actually AFK, leeching or might be having connectivity problems that makes it appear they are attempting to exploit the game, I still much prefer the system as it is currently as opposed to what it used to be like when the kick timers were shorter and players got booted for what others perceived to be a problem, but was in fact do to no impropriety on the part of the alleged offender.
But that's just my 2¢
Are you're saying you can invite anybody you choose if you kick a guy now?
There needs to be atleast 2-3 other people that needs to decide that somebody should be kicked, which is not very likely to happen with where I'm asking for it to be made possible. Moreover, these are 2-3 minute runs, they don't provide much room for any agendas.
The Party leader can invite other players to fill empty slots, yes.
In public queues?! If I was able to kick somebody from CTA, I can invite a friend to that run?
If the CTA ran past 5 minutes, yes. I have run public ToDG & PoM where we had to kick players to get thru the door, & invited guildies to fill the slot.
1
frozenfirevrMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,475Community Moderator
Much farther back than complaints about people getting kicked from random queues, there were complaints from some players about people running various content, only to reach the end, defeat the boss and be booted - presumably because after they were kicked, a friend or someone's alt would then be invited to the party to scoop up the reward. The only one I was ever personally familiar with was the Blacklake skirmish, back when the Blacklake skirmish was just another way for a lot of players to make some quantity AD's.
It's not like some players being improperly kicked is a new thing with shorter vote to kick timers...
Like you those I think are intentionally AFK and leechers tend to upset me... but then since I don't really have any way to tell if a person is actually AFK, leeching or might be having connectivity problems that makes it appear they are attempting to exploit the game, I still much prefer the system as it is currently as opposed to what it used to be like when the kick timers were shorter and players got booted for what others perceived to be a problem, but was in fact do to no impropriety on the part of the alleged offender.
But that's just my 2¢
Are you're saying you can invite anybody you choose if you kick a guy now?
There needs to be atleast 2-3 other people that needs to decide that somebody should be kicked, which is not very likely to happen with where I'm asking for it to be made possible. Moreover, these are 2-3 minute runs, they don't provide much room for any agendas.
The Party leader can invite other players to fill empty slots, yes.
In public queues?! If I was able to kick somebody from CTA, I can invite a friend to that run?
If the CTA ran past 5 minutes, yes. I have run public ToDG & PoM where we had to kick players to get thru the door, & invited guildies to fill the slot.
Hmm, I always thought you can only click the button to bring reinforcements... Does it happen in random queues too?
Anyways, I still don't think there's any non-trollish reason to kick playing players from CTA, Master of the Hunt, and Dread Legion... And if that's the case, they'd need other people to accept, so it'd be unlikely.
Much farther back than complaints about people getting kicked from random queues, there were complaints from some players about people running various content, only to reach the end, defeat the boss and be booted - presumably because after they were kicked, a friend or someone's alt would then be invited to the party to scoop up the reward. The only one I was ever personally familiar with was the Blacklake skirmish, back when the Blacklake skirmish was just another way for a lot of players to make some quantity AD's.
It's not like some players being improperly kicked is a new thing with shorter vote to kick timers...
Like you those I think are intentionally AFK and leechers tend to upset me... but then since I don't really have any way to tell if a person is actually AFK, leeching or might be having connectivity problems that makes it appear they are attempting to exploit the game, I still much prefer the system as it is currently as opposed to what it used to be like when the kick timers were shorter and players got booted for what others perceived to be a problem, but was in fact do to no impropriety on the part of the alleged offender.
But that's just my 2¢
Are you're saying you can invite anybody you choose if you kick a guy now?
There needs to be atleast 2-3 other people that needs to decide that somebody should be kicked, which is not very likely to happen with where I'm asking for it to be made possible. Moreover, these are 2-3 minute runs, they don't provide much room for any agendas.
The Party leader can invite other players to fill empty slots, yes.
In public queues?! If I was able to kick somebody from CTA, I can invite a friend to that run?
If the CTA ran past 5 minutes, yes. I have run public ToDG & PoM where we had to kick players to get thru the door, & invited guildies to fill the slot.
Hmm, I always thought you can only click the button to bring reinforcements... Does it happen in random queues too?
Anyways, I still don't think there's any non-trollish reason to kick playing players from CTA, Master of the Hunt, and Dread Legion... And if that's the case, they'd need other people to accept, so it'd be unlikely.
Unless I am doing an alliance run, I almost always queue random. And you don't really get AFK players in those runs.
I agree, there is usually no good reason to kick from skirmishes. Even fresh lvl 70's in vistani gear (even with the rank 6 enchants) can usually contribute.
Probably the simplest way to discourage the AFKers is to set some minimum damage that you MUST do to get credit. For all the tanks and healers out there it can be very low .... but people doing zero damage the entire skirmish (or even dungeon for that matter) should get zero rewards. I ran CTA several times last weekend where my OP was the ONLY one who even bothered to leave the campfire and go kill stuff ... and one group of AFKers included a 19K GWF who was just sitting there waiting for my OP tank to kill everything ...
Zero effort deserves zero rewards.
Then the AFker will just go and aoe the first mob group before AFKing.
A two minute kick timer for CTA and RLQ should be good. Most slow loading players should arrive in that time. With most runs averaging 2-3 minutes, only an idiot would play games with disconnecting/AFKing to avoid doing 2-3 minutes of work.
I see this a lot lately, people ending the run with very little damage. Presumably they are trying to avoid simple AFK detection algorithms, if there is one. In this run, the fourth player was just low geared but I saw her the entire time. The last HAMSTER stayed just outside the campfire the entire run.
I see this a lot lately, people ending the run with very little damage. Presumably they are trying to avoid simple AFK detection algorithms, if there is one. In this run, the fourth player was just low geared but I saw her the entire time. The last HAMSTER stayed just outside the campfire the entire run.
-snip-
What makes it worse in my opinion is some people can now buy level 70 characters and have no idea how to play them or run anything so we could have a level 70 character, that appears to have adequate gear doing very little damage because they have no idea how to play their character and their complete unfamiliarity with the run. So as you pointed out trying to determine a player(s) motivation solely based on the damage they contribute is probably not the absolute best way of determing who might be attempting to scam the event (and party) and who didn't contribute a lot of damage for other reasons.
Even @kiraskytower 's suggestion of 'minimal amount of damage, for a reward" while good in theory, may not be the best solution in practice... Not too many months ago I could be in a party with "speed runners" and unless they left mobs untouched the only contribution I could ever make was picking up the stuff they left behind before they sped off to the next area...
But speaking of the last CTA event specifically, it seems a lot of people myself included, observed players who wouldn't even leave the campfire until the event was over, when they grabbed their loot and left... Now whether this behavior was because of some players having slower connection times or a player actually attempting to scam the event (and party) – who really knows for sure?
I think @wintersmoke even mentioned something about that...
Probably the simplest way to discourage the AFKers is to set some minimum damage that you MUST do to get credit. For all the tanks and healers out there it can be very low .... but people doing zero damage the entire skirmish (or even dungeon for that matter) should get zero rewards. I ran CTA several times last weekend where my OP was the ONLY one who even bothered to leave the campfire and go kill stuff ... and one group of AFKers included a 19K GWF who was just sitting there waiting for my OP tank to kill everything ...
Zero effort deserves zero rewards.
Then the AFker will just go and aoe the first mob group before AFKing.
A two minute kick timer for CTA and RLQ should be good. Most slow loading players should arrive in that time. With most runs averaging 2-3 minutes, only an idiot would play games with disconnecting/AFKing to avoid doing 2-3 minutes of work.
As you said two minute kick timer for being disconnected or AFK should be sufficient... but that's not the way kick timers work, if the kick timer is reduced to two minutes that means a player can be kicked for any reason - not just AFK or disconnect, which is why I remain opposed to lowering the vote-to-kick timer...
Now as I understand it there is an automatic kick function for disconnected players and should be for players who haven't moved for a period of time (AFK'ers), I personally wouldn't be opposed to seeing those timer reduced since they are defined by the game algorithm and not player initiated.
Since people have only one kick every four hours, I doubt there will be any kick abuser in any queue, even if the kick timeout was removed. But this presents another problem for the 10 run marathon CTAs. People will still AFK betting that the other players either already used their kick or are reluctant to use their kick.
Probably the simplest way to discourage the AFKers is to set some minimum damage that you MUST do to get credit. For all the tanks and healers out there it can be very low .... but people doing zero damage the entire skirmish (or even dungeon for that matter) should get zero rewards. I ran CTA several times last weekend where my OP was the ONLY one who even bothered to leave the campfire and go kill stuff ... and one group of AFKers included a 19K GWF who was just sitting there waiting for my OP tank to kill everything ...
Zero effort deserves zero rewards.
Damage or healing others. Not sure if you can capture just a pure buffer throwing buffing spells.
As long as the minimum damage is doable and realistic yeah.
I have run some events/skirmishes/dungeons where as a slow moving GF the GWF can clear nearly everything before I get there. SO my damage input can be seem minimal.
What about counting not the amount of damage you do, but the number of times you attack an enemy? Have some minimum threshold that you have to meet to receive any rewards, and put in a bit of +/- randomness in the threshold to make it harder to game the system.
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Probably the simplest way to discourage the AFKers is to set some minimum damage that you MUST do to get credit. For all the tanks and healers out there it can be very low .... but people doing zero damage the entire skirmish (or even dungeon for that matter) should get zero rewards. I ran CTA several times last weekend where my OP was the ONLY one who even bothered to leave the campfire and go kill stuff ... and one group of AFKers included a 19K GWF who was just sitting there waiting for my OP tank to kill everything ...
Zero effort deserves zero rewards.
Damage or healing others. Not sure if you can capture just a pure buffer throwing buffing spells.
I have yet to see a pure buffer or healer that actually does zero damage ... so this really shouldn't even be a problem for them. But making it so you must do SOME damage or SOME healing would work just as well. The point is to make sure that whose who don't do anything are not rewarded for being AFK.
It's also less important to have something like this for dungeon runs which are long enough to allow vote kicks. But skirmishes/CTAs are so short that you cannot vote kick in them, so the only way to really penalize AFKers when you see them is to leave the skirmish yourself (which ... is pretty much what I think you have to do when you realize you have 4 AFKers and you are the only one actually trying to run the content).
I have yet to see a pure buffer or healer that actually does zero damage ... so this really shouldn't even be a problem for them. But making it so you must do SOME damage or SOME healing would work just as well. The point is to make sure that whose who don't do anything are not rewarded for being AFK.
It's also less important to have something like this for dungeon runs which are long enough to allow vote kicks. But skirmishes/CTAs are so short that you cannot vote kick in them, so the only way to really penalize AFKers when you see them is to leave the skirmish yourself (which ... is pretty much what I think you have to do when you realize you have 4 AFKers and you are the only one actually trying to run the content).
Again attempting to use individual personal experience to determine how something works for everybody else seems to be potentially flawed IMO it seems to be defined by: since one person develops a perspective based on their own observations, we should presume everyone else is going to have the observations and thus the same perspective.
... Not too many months ago I could be in a party with "speed runners" and unless they left mobs untouched the only contribution I could ever make was picking up the stuff they left behind before they sped off to the next area...
So it seems the suggestion of “Some damage” or Some healing” would only be practical in instances where all party members remained in proximity to allow all party members to participate, and I think most of us will agree that isn’t always something that happens.
Realistically true AFK’res aren’t that hard to spot, primarily because their characters tend not to move, hence my suggestion for the intermediate “You must gather your party” gates. Plus the suggestion of those gates having mobs who will immediately confront the party following the opening or more accurately, the transport of the party to the next area leaving the gate in place.
During a few of my random runs I’ve encountered players who seem to like staying on the periphery of mob battles and in those instances I often go stand next to them knowing that at least some in those mobs will not only attack me, but any player close to me, that actually seems to work rather well. If they run away I just go to where they’re trying to hide out and attempt to bring as many opponents with me as I can.
The only problem with any player choosing to abandon a run, even if they are the only person doing anything in that run is regardless for the reason behind their leaving, they will still have a 30 minute “leaver penalty” imposed on their account... but to completely do away with the leaver penalty would again bring about the same problems the leaver penalty way supposed to address so I’m of the opinion that any suggestion of doing away with the leaver penalty would be counter-productive.
Devs should make a k-team min item level version of MotH, DL, wizard's lair, and all the CTAs. If they can get the avg run time to 8-10 minutes, it should eliminate all AFKs from RLQ and most AFKs from marathon CTAs. And MotH and DL run time would be about the same as leveling dungeon, eliminating the gaming people currently do to get those runs. No change to the kick system is needed (it actually works pretty good for everything above RLQ).
1) Yes, please allow to kick anytime (if all 4 members wants it, then there is a good reason for it, why the 5 mins timer?).
I see one possible problem: a player don't wan't to do a dungeon and then he just go AFK and wait until party members kick him and then he just go to other random queue WITHOUT A PENALTY. Solution: give a penalty to the kicked player
2) On top of that, there should be auto-replacing mechanism for AFK (or offline) players, so that there would be no need to do a vote at all. This should be done for non-private queues only of course. For example, if a player goes AFK (or offline) for 1 min then he should be auto-replaced with a new random member.
The auto-replaced player should have a penalty too (the one that was removed I mean).
3) Maybe the exception is Illusionist Gambit. I don't know how to fix that. The problem is that it appears in a random queue and most people do random queue for AD, not for the items that drops from it, so many wants to do just the first round. If 3 of 5 players wants to continue rounds then the 2 players have no fun and might just go AFK (not to mention that the default option is to continue rounds). Possible solution: continue only when all 5 players wants to continue. Now you can give a penalty if a player is kicked of auto-replaced (since he agreed to continue). As for the first round the rule is the same as in any other random queue (i.e. can be kicked anytime, and auto-replaced if AFK or offline and a penalty is given).
4) In leveling random dungeons (like Cloak Tower, etc.) there should be no penalty for a kicked player, also no need to auto-replace AFK or offline players. But please remove the "gather all party members" thing from leveling queues (this way there will be much less reasons for kicking a player). Also to avoid the abuse of getting the AD why standing at the start and doing nothing, give the reward to a player only when he reaches the end boss (this can't be abused since such player will have a risk of being kicked, and he still has to run all the way to the end). Possible problem: some players don't want to run some longer dungeons and just wait until being kicked (abandoning dungeon should still give a penalty). This is not a big problem, because if "gather all party members" thing will be removed then kicking a player would be like a gift (since he could do a faster dungeon instead without a penalty), many players won't give such a gift, so I don't see a problem here (if you voted to kick you can't abandon dungeon without a penalty, but you can vote to abandon instance without a penalty if 10 min (or so) timer has passed). So I don't see any abuse here.
5) Now what penalty should be? The timer isn't a real penalty since the player can just do it later (4 hours I think) without a penalty. If a player was kicked from a non-random queue then there is no need to add a penalty (the penalty is already given for the time wasted in that dungeon). If a player was kicked (or auto-replaced) from a random dungeon (or CTA) then there should be -25% penalty to the daily bonus (-25% rewards in CTA case) for the next time he does the same type of queue, and it shouldn't matter when a player does that next run (today, tomorrow, a week later, etc.). The penalty should be removed only when a player completes that type of dungeon while having a penalty. Penalties shouldn't stack, because it's already a good reason to avoid this penalty and it's not too harsh for those who were actually innocent.
Possible problem: a player lose connection often and that way he might have penalties often. Well, IMO the bigger problem is that the offline player causes problems for other 4 party members (4 players is more important than 1 player). Just a reminder: penalties should apply only for random queues (and only in non leveling content), not for private queues. Also keep in mind that it's just -25% penalty, so I don't really see a problem here.
1) Yes, please allow to kick anytime (if all 4 members wants it, then there is a good reason for it, why the 5 mins timer?).
I see one possible problem: a player don't wan't to do a dungeon and then he just go AFK and wait until party members kick him and then he just go to other random queue WITHOUT A PENALTY. Solution: give a penalty to the kicked player
2) On top of that, there should be auto-replacing mechanism for AFK (or offline) players, so that there would be no need to do a vote at all. This should be done for non-private queues only of course. For example, if a player goes AFK (or offline) for 1 min then he should be auto-replaced with a new random member.
The auto-replaced player should have a penalty too (the one that was removed I mean).
3) Maybe the exception is Illusionist Gambit. I don't know how to fix that. The problem is that it appears in a random queue and most people do random queue for AD, not for the items that drops from it, so many wants to do just the first round. If 3 of 5 players wants to continue rounds then the 2 players have no fun and might just go AFK (not to mention that the default option is to continue rounds). Possible solution: continue only when all 5 players wants to continue. Now you can give a penalty if a player is kicked of auto-replaced (since he agreed to continue). As for the first round the rule is the same as in any other random queue (i.e. can be kicked anytime, and auto-replaced if AFK or offline and a penalty is given).
4) In leveling random dungeons (like Cloak Tower, etc.) there should be no penalty for a kicked player, also no need to auto-replace AFK or offline players. But please remove the "gather all party members" thing from leveling queues (this way there will be much less reasons for kicking a player). Also to avoid the abuse of getting the AD why standing at the start and doing nothing, give the reward to a player only when he reaches the end boss (this can't be abused since such player will have a risk of being kicked, and he still has to run all the way to the end). Possible problem: some players don't want to run some longer dungeons and just wait until being kicked (abandoning dungeon should still give a penalty). This is not a big problem, because if "gather all party members" thing will be removed then kicking a player would be like a gift (since he could do a faster dungeon instead without a penalty), many players won't give such a gift, so I don't see a problem here (if you voted to kick you can't abandon dungeon without a penalty, but you can vote to abandon instance without a penalty if 10 min (or so) timer has passed). So I don't see any abuse here.
5) Now what penalty should be? The timer isn't a real penalty since the player can just do it later (4 hours I think) without a penalty. If a player was kicked from a non-random queue then there is no need to add a penalty (the penalty is already given for the time wasted in that dungeon). If a player was kicked (or auto-replaced) from a random dungeon (or CTA) then there should be -25% penalty to the daily bonus (-25% rewards in CTA case) for the next time he does the same type of queue, and it shouldn't matter when a player does that next run (today, tomorrow, a week later, etc.). The penalty should be removed only when a player completes that type of dungeon while having a penalty. Penalties shouldn't stack, because it's already a good reason to avoid this penalty and it's not too harsh for those who were actually innocent.
Possible problem: a player lose connection often and that way he might have penalties often. Well, IMO the bigger problem is that the offline player causes problems for other 4 party members (4 players is more important than 1 player). Just a reminder: penalties should apply only for random queues (and only in non leveling content), not for private queues. Also keep in mind that it's just -25% penalty, so I don't really see a problem here.
1) Yes, please allow to kick anytime (if all 4 members wants it, then there is a good reason for it, why the 5 mins timer?).
I see one possible problem: a player don't wan't to do a dungeon and then he just go AFK and wait until party members kick him and then he just go to other random queue WITHOUT A PENALTY. Solution: give a penalty to the kicked player
2) On top of that, there should be auto-replacing mechanism for AFK (or offline) players, so that there would be no need to do a vote at all. This should be done for non-private queues only of course. For example, if a player goes AFK (or offline) for 1 min then he should be auto-replaced with a new random member.
The auto-replaced player should have a penalty too (the one that was removed I mean).
3) Maybe the exception is Illusionist Gambit. I don't know how to fix that. The problem is that it appears in a random queue and most people do random queue for AD, not for the items that drops from it, so many wants to do just the first round. If 3 of 5 players wants to continue rounds then the 2 players have no fun and might just go AFK (not to mention that the default option is to continue rounds). Possible solution: continue only when all 5 players wants to continue. Now you can give a penalty if a player is kicked of auto-replaced (since he agreed to continue). As for the first round the rule is the same as in any other random queue (i.e. can be kicked anytime, and auto-replaced if AFK or offline and a penalty is given).
4) In leveling random dungeons (like Cloak Tower, etc.) there should be no penalty for a kicked player, also no need to auto-replace AFK or offline players. But please remove the "gather all party members" thing from leveling queues (this way there will be much less reasons for kicking a player). Also to avoid the abuse of getting the AD why standing at the start and doing nothing, give the reward to a player only when he reaches the end boss (this can't be abused since such player will have a risk of being kicked, and he still has to run all the way to the end). Possible problem: some players don't want to run some longer dungeons and just wait until being kicked (abandoning dungeon should still give a penalty). This is not a big problem, because if "gather all party members" thing will be removed then kicking a player would be like a gift (since he could do a faster dungeon instead without a penalty), many players won't give such a gift, so I don't see a problem here (if you voted to kick you can't abandon dungeon without a penalty, but you can vote to abandon instance without a penalty if 10 min (or so) timer has passed). So I don't see any abuse here.
5) Now what penalty should be? The timer isn't a real penalty since the player can just do it later (4 hours I think) without a penalty. If a player was kicked from a non-random queue then there is no need to add a penalty (the penalty is already given for the time wasted in that dungeon). If a player was kicked (or auto-replaced) from a random dungeon (or CTA) then there should be -25% penalty to the daily bonus (-25% rewards in CTA case) for the next time he does the same type of queue, and it shouldn't matter when a player does that next run (today, tomorrow, a week later, etc.). The penalty should be removed only when a player completes that type of dungeon while having a penalty. Penalties shouldn't stack, because it's already a good reason to avoid this penalty and it's not too harsh for those who were actually innocent.
Possible problem: a player lose connection often and that way he might have penalties often. Well, IMO the bigger problem is that the offline player causes problems for other 4 party members (4 players is more important than 1 player). Just a reminder: penalties should apply only for random queues (and only in non leveling content), not for private queues. Also keep in mind that it's just -25% penalty, so I don't really see a problem here.
All CTA's are leveling content...
The suggestion is not complex or convoluted enough for you? I really like the idea where you can't even go take the bathroom to take a dump without getting auto-kicked!
1) Yes, please allow to kick anytime (if all 4 members wants it, then there is a good reason for it, why the 5 mins timer?).
I see one possible problem: a player don't wan't to do a dungeon and then he just go AFK and wait until party members kick him and then he just go to other random queue WITHOUT A PENALTY. Solution: give a penalty to the kicked player
2) On top of that, there should be auto-replacing mechanism for AFK (or offline) players, so that there would be no need to do a vote at all. This should be done for non-private queues only of course. For example, if a player goes AFK (or offline) for 1 min then he should be auto-replaced with a new random member.
The auto-replaced player should have a penalty too (the one that was removed I mean).
3) Maybe the exception is Illusionist Gambit. I don't know how to fix that. The problem is that it appears in a random queue and most people do random queue for AD, not for the items that drops from it, so many wants to do just the first round. If 3 of 5 players wants to continue rounds then the 2 players have no fun and might just go AFK (not to mention that the default option is to continue rounds). Possible solution: continue only when all 5 players wants to continue. Now you can give a penalty if a player is kicked of auto-replaced (since he agreed to continue). As for the first round the rule is the same as in any other random queue (i.e. can be kicked anytime, and auto-replaced if AFK or offline and a penalty is given).
4) In leveling random dungeons (like Cloak Tower, etc.) there should be no penalty for a kicked player, also no need to auto-replace AFK or offline players. But please remove the "gather all party members" thing from leveling queues (this way there will be much less reasons for kicking a player). Also to avoid the abuse of getting the AD why standing at the start and doing nothing, give the reward to a player only when he reaches the end boss (this can't be abused since such player will have a risk of being kicked, and he still has to run all the way to the end). Possible problem: some players don't want to run some longer dungeons and just wait until being kicked (abandoning dungeon should still give a penalty). This is not a big problem, because if "gather all party members" thing will be removed then kicking a player would be like a gift (since he could do a faster dungeon instead without a penalty), many players won't give such a gift, so I don't see a problem here (if you voted to kick you can't abandon dungeon without a penalty, but you can vote to abandon instance without a penalty if 10 min (or so) timer has passed). So I don't see any abuse here.
5) Now what penalty should be? The timer isn't a real penalty since the player can just do it later (4 hours I think) without a penalty. If a player was kicked from a non-random queue then there is no need to add a penalty (the penalty is already given for the time wasted in that dungeon). If a player was kicked (or auto-replaced) from a random dungeon (or CTA) then there should be -25% penalty to the daily bonus (-25% rewards in CTA case) for the next time he does the same type of queue, and it shouldn't matter when a player does that next run (today, tomorrow, a week later, etc.). The penalty should be removed only when a player completes that type of dungeon while having a penalty. Penalties shouldn't stack, because it's already a good reason to avoid this penalty and it's not too harsh for those who were actually innocent.
Possible problem: a player lose connection often and that way he might have penalties often. Well, IMO the bigger problem is that the offline player causes problems for other 4 party members (4 players is more important than 1 player). Just a reminder: penalties should apply only for random queues (and only in non leveling content), not for private queues. Also keep in mind that it's just -25% penalty, so I don't really see a problem here.
All CTA's are leveling content...
The suggestion is not complex or convoluted enough for you? I really like the idea where you can't even go take the bathroom to take a dump without getting auto-kicked!
No, I really like the complexity and convolutedness. Especially the part where the devs have to add a timer to auto-close the instance, once only a single player is left. I imagine there will be a certain segment of the player base that will really enjoy trying to race the timer to the chest at the end...
Cryptic needs to log the runs and compile a list of people consistently doing zero damage, then take action against them.
I'd feel a lot better just knowing they were taking it seriously.
Finding some way to compile a list of oft-reported offenders would be a good start. Every month suspend the most outrageous offenders, or ban them from whatever content they're abusing for a week. During CTA events, deal with them at the end of every day.
With a good system in place, it might only take one developer or a community moderator just a few minutes.
Instead of system determing, what my playstyle is, or strage people with arbitrary expectations of my playstyle, why not queue for position?:
Tank -> needs to receive certain amount of damage (blocked+reflected counts of course), Healer -> needs to heal certain amount of hitpoints, Killer -> needs to deal certain amount of damage.
Reward is based on how you fulfill your personal goal *multiplied* with how the group succedes.
The idea with min dmg etc. is problematic, bc this game groups 4k IL players with 18k IL players. a 4k player cant do sufficient dmg, if the 18k player kills everything with one strike.
TBH, I do solo ques or run with friends, mostly. RQ is an option, when I am really bored and I dont mind getting a penalty. The problem here is, that some players still need ADs, to advance their characters. They cant just leave a group of AFK players or min IL "carry me" slackers. I did play before RQ, levers penalty etc. There was an abuse of the kick option, but compared to the system 'as it is', it was much better. When the party leader was able to kick player whenever he wanted, I saw abuse. Maybe 5 or 6 times. I have seen dozens of AFK players and players using abusive language getting kicked, rightly so.
This system implements, that the average player is self centered and cant form a reasonable decision, so we are forced to group with random players for RAD, cant kick them and get a penalty, if we dont fulfill the goal, to wait for or carry whoever gets grouped with us. All this 'social contract' advocates dont get, that the door swings both ways. There is no reason for me, to be polite towards unpolite players or waste my time for them.
You can either life with the decisions of PW, as wrong as they are IMO, or stop playing or stop running RQ events etc. As it is, I dont think, that they will overhaul this crappy system anytime soon.
Comments
There needs to be atleast 2-3 other people that needs to decide that somebody should be kicked, which is not very likely to happen with where I'm asking for it to be made possible. Moreover, these are 2-3 minute runs, they don't provide much room for any agendas.
Zero effort deserves zero rewards.
Winter Lily (CW) / Winter Rose (DC) / Winter Ivy (HR)
Pandora's Misfits Guild Leader
Anyways, I still don't think there's any non-trollish reason to kick playing players from CTA, Master of the Hunt, and Dread Legion... And if that's the case, they'd need other people to accept, so it'd be unlikely.
I agree, there is usually no good reason to kick from skirmishes. Even fresh lvl 70's in vistani gear (even with the rank 6 enchants) can usually contribute.
A two minute kick timer for CTA and RLQ should be good. Most slow loading players should arrive in that time. With most runs averaging 2-3 minutes, only an idiot would play games with disconnecting/AFKing to avoid doing 2-3 minutes of work.
Even @kiraskytower 's suggestion of 'minimal amount of damage, for a reward" while good in theory, may not be the best solution in practice... Not too many months ago I could be in a party with "speed runners" and unless they left mobs untouched the only contribution I could ever make was picking up the stuff they left behind before they sped off to the next area...
But speaking of the last CTA event specifically, it seems a lot of people myself included, observed players who wouldn't even leave the campfire until the event was over, when they grabbed their loot and left... Now whether this behavior was because of some players having slower connection times or a player actually attempting to scam the event (and party) – who really knows for sure?
I think @wintersmoke even mentioned something about that... As you said two minute kick timer for being disconnected or AFK should be sufficient... but that's not the way kick timers work, if the kick timer is reduced to two minutes that means a player can be kicked for any reason - not just AFK or disconnect, which is why I remain opposed to lowering the vote-to-kick timer...
Now as I understand it there is an automatic kick function for disconnected players and should be for players who haven't moved for a period of time (AFK'ers), I personally wouldn't be opposed to seeing those timer reduced since they are defined by the game algorithm and not player initiated.
I have run some events/skirmishes/dungeons where as a slow moving GF the GWF can clear nearly everything before I get there. SO my damage input can be seem minimal.
Blood Magic (RELEASED) - NW-DUU2P7HCO
Children of the Fey (RELEASED) - NW-DKSSAPFPF
Buried Under Blacklake (WIP) - NW-DEDV2PAEP
The Redcap Rebels (WIP) - NW-DO23AFHFH
My Foundry playthrough channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/Ruskaga/featured
It's also less important to have something like this for dungeon runs which are long enough to allow vote kicks. But skirmishes/CTAs are so short that you cannot vote kick in them, so the only way to really penalize AFKers when you see them is to leave the skirmish yourself (which ... is pretty much what I think you have to do when you realize you have 4 AFKers and you are the only one actually trying to run the content).
Winter Lily (CW) / Winter Rose (DC) / Winter Ivy (HR)
Pandora's Misfits Guild Leader
I’ve already mentioned: So it seems the suggestion of “Some damage” or Some healing” would only be practical in instances where all party members remained in proximity to allow all party members to participate, and I think most of us will agree that isn’t always something that happens.
Realistically true AFK’res aren’t that hard to spot, primarily because their characters tend not to move, hence my suggestion for the intermediate “You must gather your party” gates. Plus the suggestion of those gates having mobs who will immediately confront the party following the opening or more accurately, the transport of the party to the next area leaving the gate in place.
During a few of my random runs I’ve encountered players who seem to like staying on the periphery of mob battles and in those instances I often go stand next to them knowing that at least some in those mobs will not only attack me, but any player close to me, that actually seems to work rather well. If they run away I just go to where they’re trying to hide out and attempt to bring as many opponents with me as I can.
The only problem with any player choosing to abandon a run, even if they are the only person doing anything in that run is regardless for the reason behind their leaving, they will still have a 30 minute “leaver penalty” imposed on their account... but to completely do away with the leaver penalty would again bring about the same problems the leaver penalty way supposed to address so I’m of the opinion that any suggestion of doing away with the leaver penalty would be counter-productive.
I see one possible problem: a player don't wan't to do a dungeon and then he just go AFK and wait until party members kick him and then he just go to other random queue WITHOUT A PENALTY.
Solution: give a penalty to the kicked player
2) On top of that, there should be auto-replacing mechanism for AFK (or offline) players, so that there would be no need to do a vote at all. This should be done for non-private queues only of course.
For example, if a player goes AFK (or offline) for 1 min then he should be auto-replaced with a new random member.
The auto-replaced player should have a penalty too (the one that was removed I mean).
3) Maybe the exception is Illusionist Gambit. I don't know how to fix that. The problem is that it appears in a random queue and most people do random queue for AD, not for the items that drops from it, so many wants to do just the first round. If 3 of 5 players wants to continue rounds then the 2 players have no fun and might just go AFK (not to mention that the default option is to continue rounds). Possible solution: continue only when all 5 players wants to continue. Now you can give a penalty if a player is kicked of auto-replaced (since he agreed to continue). As for the first round the rule is the same as in any other random queue (i.e. can be kicked anytime, and auto-replaced if AFK or offline and a penalty is given).
4) In leveling random dungeons (like Cloak Tower, etc.) there should be no penalty for a kicked player, also no need to auto-replace AFK or offline players. But please remove the "gather all party members" thing from leveling queues (this way there will be much less reasons for kicking a player). Also to avoid the abuse of getting the AD why standing at the start and doing nothing, give the reward to a player only when he reaches the end boss (this can't be abused since such player will have a risk of being kicked, and he still has to run all the way to the end).
Possible problem: some players don't want to run some longer dungeons and just wait until being kicked (abandoning dungeon should still give a penalty). This is not a big problem, because if "gather all party members" thing will be removed then kicking a player would be like a gift (since he could do a faster dungeon instead without a penalty), many players won't give such a gift, so I don't see a problem here (if you voted to kick you can't abandon dungeon without a penalty, but you can vote to abandon instance without a penalty if 10 min (or so) timer has passed). So I don't see any abuse here.
5) Now what penalty should be? The timer isn't a real penalty since the player can just do it later (4 hours I think) without a penalty.
If a player was kicked from a non-random queue then there is no need to add a penalty (the penalty is already given for the time wasted in that dungeon).
If a player was kicked (or auto-replaced) from a random dungeon (or CTA) then there should be -25% penalty to the daily bonus (-25% rewards in CTA case) for the next time he does the same type of queue, and it shouldn't matter when a player does that next run (today, tomorrow, a week later, etc.). The penalty should be removed only when a player completes that type of dungeon while having a penalty. Penalties shouldn't stack, because it's already a good reason to avoid this penalty and it's not too harsh for those who were actually innocent.
Possible problem: a player lose connection often and that way he might have penalties often. Well, IMO the bigger problem is that the offline player causes problems for other 4 party members (4 players is more important than 1 player).
Just a reminder: penalties should apply only for random queues (and only in non leveling content), not for private queues.
Also keep in mind that it's just -25% penalty, so I don't really see a problem here.
I'd feel a lot better just knowing they were taking it seriously.
Finding some way to compile a list of oft-reported offenders would be a good start. Every month suspend the most outrageous offenders, or ban them from whatever content they're abusing for a week. During CTA events, deal with them at the end of every day.
With a good system in place, it might only take one developer or a community moderator just a few minutes.
Tank -> needs to receive certain amount of damage (blocked+reflected counts of course),
Healer -> needs to heal certain amount of hitpoints,
Killer -> needs to deal certain amount of damage.
Reward is based on how you fulfill your personal goal *multiplied* with how the group succedes.
TBH, I do solo ques or run with friends, mostly. RQ is an option, when I am really bored and I dont mind getting a penalty. The problem here is, that some players still need ADs, to advance their characters. They cant just leave a group of AFK players or min IL "carry me" slackers. I did play before RQ, levers penalty etc. There was an abuse of the kick option, but compared to the system 'as it is', it was much better. When the party leader was able to kick player whenever he wanted, I saw abuse. Maybe 5 or 6 times. I have seen dozens of AFK players and players using abusive language getting kicked, rightly so.
This system implements, that the average player is self centered and cant form a reasonable decision, so we are forced to group with random players for RAD, cant kick them and get a penalty, if we dont fulfill the goal, to wait for or carry whoever gets grouped with us. All this 'social contract' advocates dont get, that the door swings both ways. There is no reason for me, to be polite towards unpolite players or waste my time for them.
You can either life with the decisions of PW, as wrong as they are IMO, or stop playing or stop running RQ events etc. As it is, I dont think, that they will overhaul this crappy system anytime soon.