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Balance: 3k vs 15k player in Domination Solo
vordayn
Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,283 Arc User
Would you allow a 15k player with Mythic artifacts and Legendary equipment to queue for Castle Ravenloft?
The answer is a resounding yes, especially if they knew what they were doing.
Now, would you allow a 3k player without any enchantments slotted, with green and blue gear, to queue for that same instance?
No.
And yet, Domination PvP suffers no compunctions in matching these type of players together. See the picture below (they queued in Dom today, in the same match I was in):
On the left, you have a 15.9k player, 32k power (around 110% damage increase), 9k critical strike, 16k armor penetration (around 130% resistance ignored), 10k recovery (great uptime of encounter powers), 190k HP.
On the right you have a 3.9k player, 8k power, 1.7k critical strike, 1.7k armor penetration, 210 recovery, 40k HP.
If this were a Random Queue for dungeons (and Domination solo is that - a random queue), firstly the 3k player wouldn't be allowed in!, but if they were the team would kick out the 3k player, no questions asked. Or the team would quit, or they'd wait out the abandon instance timer.
So Developers, what can you do to help create this 'balance' we are looking for in PvP?
Here are some options with pros and cons. These options have been circulating for some time on these forums, and may be implemented solely or in conjunction with another as a trial. The list below I provide is no means exhaustive, but the current situation is frustrating for both high level players and beginner PvPers.
Option 1: IL Stratification
Allow a Title to be reached once a player reaches 10k item level, and once breached, players can only queue for the 10k+ IL group (much like how domination queues are split after reaching level 70). This would be a 'watermark' if you will, so that even if they unequip gear, they can never go back, so it will not be prone to abuse by twinking.
Pros: New players < 10k IL will be able to play against each other, hopefully fostering an interest in PvP while they are gearing up. This would allow them to learn their powers, rotations, tactics, before being thrown into the deep end. This should help PvP numbers in the long run.
Cons: 10k IL is arbitrary and may not be an effective divisor of player skill. It may lessen the amount of players able to play in domination, increasing queue wait times (but I must add that if one team has an undergeared player, and the other doesn't, it can effectively throw the match anyway).
Option 2: Diminishing Stat Returns
Much like how player stat effectiveness is reduced when going into a lower level instance, perhaps the stat effectiveness of players could be brought in line to a more equitable level. For example, 30k power is about a 100% damage increase. If the stat returns are modified then perhaps power could be limited to 20% damage increase with diminishing returns approaching that value. Small changes can be made at first to see how effective this is.
Pros: This would help balance out the stat differences between players. It will not divide the already low number of the available people queuing up for PvP.
Cons: We can see how ineffective this actually is in lower instanced zones (e.g. Acquisitions Incorporated early campaign quests). Everything is still one shot, including the 'bosses'. This would require a lot of mathematical know-how and developer time to achieve. It would also require a lot of balancing between the different variables, e.g. damage and defense, so that you don't end up with PvP in which no-one does any damage or killing.
Option 3: Removal of 'Overpowered' Gear Effects
There is a consensus among players that play PvP long enough that there are a few items which are overpowered. While these items can be (relatively) easy to achieve by end-game players, this again poses another significant advantage over established vs newer players. Items here include: Mane of the Manticore, Cowl of the Dead, AP/Stamina Drain, Tymora's Lucky Coin Artifact (still multi-proccing and buggy) etc. These should be not effective in PvP, or seriously reduced in effectiveness.
Pros: Further balances the playing field between players that have these items, vs those that do not.
Cons: People who want every advantage in PvP might be upset. There also would not be a need to chase these items by this subset of the population.
Conclusion
I think that it is possible to help PvP thrive in the early stages of a player's experience. By turning off players from PvP when they are new, and are one-shot left and right, then you are doing a disservice to the longevity of PvP in this game.
I know this is another one of these "Revive PvP threads" that appear with every mod, but with every mod, things are getting further and further away in terms of balance. It is comparable to new content - each module introduces content which is more challenging, and players eventually strive to achieve gear to overcome said challenges, but then you are left with an increasing divide between the old and new players in PvP with each passing mod.
Any other ideas to help with PvP in this game would be much appreciated.
The answer is a resounding yes, especially if they knew what they were doing.
Now, would you allow a 3k player without any enchantments slotted, with green and blue gear, to queue for that same instance?
No.
And yet, Domination PvP suffers no compunctions in matching these type of players together. See the picture below (they queued in Dom today, in the same match I was in):
On the left, you have a 15.9k player, 32k power (around 110% damage increase), 9k critical strike, 16k armor penetration (around 130% resistance ignored), 10k recovery (great uptime of encounter powers), 190k HP.
On the right you have a 3.9k player, 8k power, 1.7k critical strike, 1.7k armor penetration, 210 recovery, 40k HP.
If this were a Random Queue for dungeons (and Domination solo is that - a random queue), firstly the 3k player wouldn't be allowed in!, but if they were the team would kick out the 3k player, no questions asked. Or the team would quit, or they'd wait out the abandon instance timer.
So Developers, what can you do to help create this 'balance' we are looking for in PvP?
Here are some options with pros and cons. These options have been circulating for some time on these forums, and may be implemented solely or in conjunction with another as a trial. The list below I provide is no means exhaustive, but the current situation is frustrating for both high level players and beginner PvPers.
Option 1: IL Stratification
Allow a Title to be reached once a player reaches 10k item level, and once breached, players can only queue for the 10k+ IL group (much like how domination queues are split after reaching level 70). This would be a 'watermark' if you will, so that even if they unequip gear, they can never go back, so it will not be prone to abuse by twinking.
Pros: New players < 10k IL will be able to play against each other, hopefully fostering an interest in PvP while they are gearing up. This would allow them to learn their powers, rotations, tactics, before being thrown into the deep end. This should help PvP numbers in the long run.
Cons: 10k IL is arbitrary and may not be an effective divisor of player skill. It may lessen the amount of players able to play in domination, increasing queue wait times (but I must add that if one team has an undergeared player, and the other doesn't, it can effectively throw the match anyway).
Option 2: Diminishing Stat Returns
Much like how player stat effectiveness is reduced when going into a lower level instance, perhaps the stat effectiveness of players could be brought in line to a more equitable level. For example, 30k power is about a 100% damage increase. If the stat returns are modified then perhaps power could be limited to 20% damage increase with diminishing returns approaching that value. Small changes can be made at first to see how effective this is.
Pros: This would help balance out the stat differences between players. It will not divide the already low number of the available people queuing up for PvP.
Cons: We can see how ineffective this actually is in lower instanced zones (e.g. Acquisitions Incorporated early campaign quests). Everything is still one shot, including the 'bosses'. This would require a lot of mathematical know-how and developer time to achieve. It would also require a lot of balancing between the different variables, e.g. damage and defense, so that you don't end up with PvP in which no-one does any damage or killing.
Option 3: Removal of 'Overpowered' Gear Effects
There is a consensus among players that play PvP long enough that there are a few items which are overpowered. While these items can be (relatively) easy to achieve by end-game players, this again poses another significant advantage over established vs newer players. Items here include: Mane of the Manticore, Cowl of the Dead, AP/Stamina Drain, Tymora's Lucky Coin Artifact (still multi-proccing and buggy) etc. These should be not effective in PvP, or seriously reduced in effectiveness.
Pros: Further balances the playing field between players that have these items, vs those that do not.
Cons: People who want every advantage in PvP might be upset. There also would not be a need to chase these items by this subset of the population.
Conclusion
I think that it is possible to help PvP thrive in the early stages of a player's experience. By turning off players from PvP when they are new, and are one-shot left and right, then you are doing a disservice to the longevity of PvP in this game.
I know this is another one of these "Revive PvP threads" that appear with every mod, but with every mod, things are getting further and further away in terms of balance. It is comparable to new content - each module introduces content which is more challenging, and players eventually strive to achieve gear to overcome said challenges, but then you are left with an increasing divide between the old and new players in PvP with each passing mod.
Any other ideas to help with PvP in this game would be much appreciated.
Vordon CW ‡ Vordayn DC ‡ Axel Wolfric GWF ‡ Logain SW ‡ Gawyn GF ‡ Galad OP ‡ Aspen Darkfire HR ‡ Min TR
7
Comments
My pipedream for pvp would be a persistent pvp map that you zoned into rather than queued for. You are put on the team that has less members, or on the team that is losing if each team has the same amount. On death, if your team has two more members than your opposition you are automatically switched to the other team. Complete transparency, meaning, everyone at any time can bring up a list of all ppl that are playing, what team they are on, and what class they are. When map objectives are met and one team wins the zone resets, teams shuffled, and everyone is moved to starting area and a countdown begins for the next map. No waiting for a queue, no waiting for enough ppl, no rewards if you were not present for the entire match, no penalty for leaving a match (other than no rewards). Ideally, no rewards other than temporary ones that you lose when you leave the map. Rewards don't matter much to me.
Yeah, too much work, too expensive, etc. etc.
Gut pvp. Rip the floorboards out if you have too.
Or maybe just some different scenery...
all with stuns not respecting the devs cc stack system also the ring of cowardice and its repels and of coarse the jungle boon (not an item i know )
and depending on your perspective the rings of invisibility
and depending on your perspective disable all epic mount powers ... I am looking at you golden lion / prone and huge amount of temp hit points not respecting devs pvp healing depression
instead of lowering and diminishing a high level players effectiveness/ stat curves why not boost the lower players one somewhat ... he still wont have the regular campaign boons tho and also might not be in a guild further skewing results
why not temperately give players all possible guild boons as if they were in a rank 20 guild only when entering pvp
that would also "balance things" somewhat with a separate free pvp character sheet and load out
Most end-game players boast something like 20-30k Power, 10-20k Armor Pen, 10-15k Critical Strike, 5-10k Defense/Deflect, 180-300k HP (depending on class).
I'm liking the idea more of boosting lower players instead. These baseline stat boosts could also be modified with each mod, and therefore keep up with newer content/gear as well.
instead of class vs class/ node rotations this is how it should be /used to be
I'm thinking they could be sets for the common class archetypes e.g. fighter, defender, healer. The sets could be indexed to the commonly obtained items for that mod (e.g. IL 500 with Rank 10 enchants for Mod 15 as a base level) and thus be updated for each mod.
Set up a simple ilvl matchmaking system so that only people within a certain range (e.g. +/- 2k) will get matched. Then set it up that after 5 minutes, as long as there are an even number of players in the queue, the match begins. This may result in 3v3 doms, or even 1v1 Gauntlgryms, but, seriously, who cares? As long as the players are having fun and teams are even, what does it matter how many are playing? If they don't like the setup, they can vote out. You can also leave the option to queue unrestricted for the sado-masochists out there. This will allow for: more of the existing modes that currently sit abandoned to be utilized more often (thus lessening the need for more maps/modes to be created), more new players to be introduced to pvp without being 1-shotted and discouraged (thus increasing the overall pvp playerbase), more accurate and consistent feedback on class balance issues (as one person wouldn't be comparing 16k rogues to 8k paladins and the next person comparing the opposite), and overall a more challenging and enjoyable experience for all involved.