is the automatic Damage resistance in PvP still functioning

deathklaat666

Ever since new mod release, ive noticed everyone dealing a Ton more damage 200k bull charges ,anvils,disitegrates,Iceknives , clouds of steel shred people ,it just seems somthing is off to me....anyone else notice this???

deathklaat666

come to think of it Control is out of control in pvp too atm ....is the "Auto-Tenacity" working at all???

kalina311

There is no tenacity for Cc resistance anymore been that way for several mods ...its the devs Buggy broken Cc resist stacks system
That not one dev ever commented on at all in any of our feedback
add to that all the broken buggy items and boons pants /potions ..and there you go stunned and held .. annoyingly

all the power you have listed have been buffed in mod 15/ better synergies ..and in the gf case some broken
time to get more hitpoints dude... if you dont have 250k-300k hit points you wont survive those blasts
especially with other broken items mane of the manticore etc chucking hit points or other broken artifacts that have yet to be fixed that were reported broken

trgluestickz

deathklaat666 said:

Ever since new mod release, ive noticed everyone dealing a Ton more damage 200k bull charges ,anvils,disitegrates,Iceknives , clouds of steel shred people ,it just seems somthing is off to me....anyone else notice this???

I have noticed virtually everyone in M15 PVP is able to kill me fairly quickly if I slip up even a little bit, even clerics are able to dot me to death now. I'm nearly maxed out gearwise and am built tankyer than your average TR is. I don't remember everybody doing this much damage in module 14 so it does seem like something changed, players on both teams always seem to die more now too.

I don't know if there is something wrong on the backend or not. I'm sure at least part of it comes down to the buffs several classes got but this can't explain all of it.

vordayn

I think something has happened to effectiveness of powers - they are hitting harder across the board.

Looking at ACT logs, prior to Mod15, effectiveness of most classes against me was about 20-25% (with some powers being 60%). But now, effectiveness of powers are at around 40-50% (with the some powers being 60+%).

Whether this is due to universal tenacity being reduced (or bugged) or powers buffed (or bugged) I don't know. But it does make it harder to build defensively this mod ...

jonkoca

Certainly the GFs this mod seem to be flatlining me with more ease than last mod. Which makes me sad.

scarabman

Beyond increases in available armor pen on gear, effectiveness shouldn't have changed a great deal in Heart of Fire. If you see specific cases where effectiveness is inexplicably high in PvP, please share that data (ACT logs are helpful here).

kalina311

@scarabman

Why not fix these broken abused items for starters as already reported
Tymora's Spinning Coin
Waukeen`s Horde

https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/1244378/new-broken-item-mod-15-and-more


Why not fix the insane damage loops with marked targets ..never fixed during bug month reported dozens of times
that lags the hell out of pvp .. and allows people to troll

https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/1244056/mod-15-old-buggs-still-works

why not flag and fix all the bugged stunning sleeping potions/ wands you created from the new crafting system and mark them as not usable in pvp

why not let all the broken stun and immobilising items/ rings /pants and boons actually respect your cc resist stack system
or also flag them as not usable in pvp

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leonidrex

etelgrin said:

@scarabman



Hey, Im SW Pug Panther, the moment of recieving this anvil of doom hit I had 6x rank 14s Demonic Enchantments, 245k Hit Points, Unparalled Negation (don't know how much stacks though because its very dynamic), about 8k deflection, 6k defense, and... the hit should been diminished by automatic tenacity damage resistance right?

The GF that did this hit, had 46k power, 20k crit, 9k armor pen, considering his armor pen should also get diminished by automatic tenacity Armor Penetration Resistance, how the heck is he having over 60% effectiveness?

I don't have log at this moment, but the very same happens to Bull Charge.

well 40% damage reduction from pvp preety much makes 60% dmg as a baseline.
since you didnt deflect it, its your ( dmgres - his armorpen ) x debuffs. and since mark is ( 20% ? debuff ) and crushing pin 10%.
so its 0,6% x 1,3 = 78% effectiveness.
so its 78% effectiveness that gets only reduced by your armor ( this assumes that you were not debuffed by other sources )
my guess is he did quick combo where you couldnt deflect cuz prone, hit you 2-3 times so you didnt have negation stacks, and since you dont have much armor, then him having low armorpen didnt matter and boom 200-300k dmg.

scarabman

60-80% effectiveness is certainly not uncommon in PvP when you factor in crits, buffs and debuffs that all combine to raise your base effectiveness well beyond 100% before the PvP reductions apply. I like to play with my wacky renegade CW build that randomly hits Disintegrate or Ice Knife at 90% effectiveness by taking advantage of the new Uncontrolled Obliteration mechanic (plus a full suite of buffs/debuffs). It doesn't hit that hard every time but it can spike up that high. It could go even higher than that too.

krondhor

scarabman said:

60-80% effectiveness is certainly not uncommon in PvP when you factor in crits, buffs and debuffs that all combine to raise your base effectiveness well beyond 100% before the PvP reductions apply. I like to play with my wacky renegade CW build that randomly hits Disintegrate or Ice Knife at 90% effectiveness by taking advantage of the new Uncontrolled Obliteration mechanic (plus a full suite of buffs/debuffs). It doesn't hit that hard every time but it can spike up that high. It could go even higher than that too.

well such spikes would be perfect normal in PVE, but if in PVP somebody can one-shot kill somebody at full health then that means something is very wrong in this game imo, this is not an FPS game, in here a player shouldn't get one-shotted ever (aslong GS difference is really big), I would at this point even suggest to introduce a max damage cap, whatever skill for example should never be able to do more than 70% of target player total health as spike damage, elsewhere there's too much disparity as classes aren't (yet) balanced at all.

tholan

kalina311 said:

@scarabman

Why not fix these broken abused items for starters as already reported
Tymora's Spinning Coin
Waukeen`s Horde

https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/1244378/new-broken-item-mod-15-and-more


Why not fix the insane damage loops with marked targets ..never fixed during bug month reported dozens of times
that lags the hell out of pvp .. and allows people to troll

https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/1244056/mod-15-old-buggs-still-works

why not flag and fix all the bugged stunning sleeping potions/ wands you created from the new crafting system and mark them as not usable in pvp

why not let all the broken stun and immobilising items/ rings /pants and boons actually respect your cc resist stack system
or also flag them as not usable in pvp

@scarabman

I've moved the post about the damage loop in the bug section here:
https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1244483/mod15-damage-loop-bug-on-artifact/p1?new=1

And updated it with a little act results on a group of minion, 1 activation.... nice artifact ....
btw, it's scale with buff, so in dungeon with all the buff can output more and more damage.



No really, this should be a priority, imagine 5 ppl running a dungeon with this item...and you banned ppl for abusing the hunt in barovia...imagine what can happen with this one...i dont have the wauken and dont know someone that can test it , but the damage happen in a similar way.

vordayn

etelgrin said:

@scarabman



Hey, Im SW Pug Panther, the moment of recieving this anvil of doom hit I had 6x rank 14s Demonic Enchantments, 245k Hit Points, Unparalled Negation (don't know how much stacks though because its very dynamic), about 8k deflection, 6k defense, and... the hit should been diminished by automatic tenacity damage resistance right?

The GF that did this hit, had 46k power, 20k crit, 9k armor pen, considering his armor pen should also get diminished by automatic tenacity Armor Penetration Resistance, how the heck is he having over 60% effectiveness?

I don't have log at this moment, but the very same happens to Bull Charge.

I think the question here is should any encounter be one-shotting in PvP, especially as Pug Panther's build is an end-game defensive BiS build. What chance do new players have?

kalina311

time to increase the tenacity values in pvp now across the board
this is also what happens when the devs fixed the bugged crit in pvp ... crit used to do less damage then non crits now BOOM!

trgluestickz

I've moved the following comment chain over from a different thread as this thread topic suits it better:

trgluestickz said:

mebengalsfan#9264 said:

As for damage in PVP, it should be reduced by 50%; it would make PVP a lot more fun as we all would be doing less damage.

I occasionally see people ask for damage to be universally reduced by large margins in PVP but considering PVP's history, this is very much a "be careful what you wish for" sort of deal.

Reducing damage in PVP by anything close to that much would revive a heavily complained about issue from around the module 10 PVP era. Everyone back then was way too tanky and very few deaths happened, I can remember being bored senseless in many of the matches from back then because there was no real fear of danger and fighting played too little of a role. Thankfully I still had some amazing matches back then but these were outnumbered by the boring ones.

Eventually a new stronger set of artifact weapons was released and started to change the balance between tankyness and damage output. Then tenacity was taken off of gear and made weaker, this finished the job and made PVP feel a lot more refreshing if you ask me. Now everyone has to make a stronger effort to stay alive.

Also, @scarabman, to further clarify my take on this, it does seem like damage in PVP may have gone up too much in module 15, I'm not sure how I feel about it yet.

A slight reduction to how much damage people take in PVP and taking a closer look at the powers that are currently oneshotting people would probably be beneficial.

I'd like to request the devs to proceed with caution if they make such a change since I don't want to see the damage people take in PVP reduced by too much, as was the case around the module 10 era.

vordayn

scarabman said:

60-80% effectiveness is certainly not uncommon in PvP when you factor in crits, buffs and debuffs that all combine to raise your base effectiveness well beyond 100% before the PvP reductions apply. I like to play with my wacky renegade CW build that randomly hits Disintegrate or Ice Knife at 90% effectiveness by taking advantage of the new Uncontrolled Obliteration mechanic (plus a full suite of buffs/debuffs). It doesn't hit that hard every time but it can spike up that high. It could go even higher than that too.

@scarabman I thought that effectiveness in ACT was a direct correlation of the damage dealt vs the damage that would have been dealt, which usually appears as: You deal x damage (y damage) in the combat log. Thus crits/buffs increase the damage that would have been dealt (y), but the damage dealt (x) is a reflection of the defense/mitigation of the target; so that effectiveness is relative to the defensive/mitigating capabilities instead.

Which is why 60% (or near 60%) is the maximum effectiveness in PvP (it can go a bit over this, but not usually) because of the damage reduction of 40% in PvP. In other words, damage 'x' will usually almost always be 60% of 'y' in PvP if all the mitigation has been stripped away. This is what I've seen throughout my ACT logs in the past and currently.

Let me show you some ACT logs of GFs in Mod 15 vs Mod 14 (note the dates at the bottom right corner of the image).

Firstly, a top-tier GF in Mod 15:



Next, a top-tier GF in Mod 14:



If we look at Bull Charge, in Mod 14 the average damage was 17.7k, median 12.5k, max 38.6k with effectiveness of 25.9%.

In Mod 15 for Bull Charge, the average damage was 32.7k, median 30k, max hit 107k with effectiveness of 25.2%.

So even if effectiveness was unchanged in both mods. Bull Charge is now hitting on average about twice more this compared to last mod, with a max hit nearly 3 times more.

I don't think it is just effectiveness now which has changed, but really damage across the board, noticeably more so from the GF.

But I want to bring your attention again to Pug Panther's @etelgrin ACT log. A 240k encounter power anvil is impressive, especially against a BiS defensive SW.

As for Bull Charge, it really is a one-shot (or start of a one-rotation combo) especially as it rushes towards the target, knocks them, and is easily followed up by either a daily Flourish (which prones you for the entire duration) or another encounter Anvil (which dealt 140k damage even with an effectiveness of 22% in my ACT log above). And look at Jagged Blades now, as total damage it is in the top 3 of their damage output. It might not seem as impressive as the former two, but it deals approximately 1/3 of their top damage hitting powers.

I have seen new players in PvP be wiped out with one Bull Charge. There is something going on here, and I cannot quite put my finger on it as the patch notes did not say anything about it.

So it seems my initial assumption was wrong, it isn't about effectiveness and universal tenacity (at least according to these few logs and that of @etelgrin). Rather it could just possibly be the powercreep with each new mod and the runaway one-shot/one-combo encounters which develop as a result of this. But I do not know how the GFs are benefitting from it so much, as a number of players are attesting to that in this thread, and there is also another PvE thread on this issue by @grimah.

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kalina311

maybe the old every 20 seconds the gf deals extra hidden damage bug / feature is back ..an old hidden buff dating back to mod 1 and 2 when gf were very defensive and needed help soloing ..I am sure some vet devs and player know about this .... sure i could find a dev thread about this correction buried in code from years ago if i felt like looking ..

I think it was only corrected and found out many many many mods later like mod 8ish 9ish where gf were doing plenty of damage and no longer needed the "help"

trgluestickz

Here are my basic observations. As others have pointed out, GF in particular had a massive damage increase, but just about everyone else also hits harder than I can remember happening in module 14. Heavily geared players are dropping like flys on both teams in the majority of matches I've been in recently. I did have some matches last night that were close to how they were in module 14 but the damage was still higher than normal.

Me and one other TR I've talked to recently have been one shot through ITC by bullcharge. I'm not just talking about getting hit during the new delay before ITC activates either. Even the sloppyer bullcharges in matches often hit me for above 100k, assuming I survive them at all. GF's other attacks and reflect damage also do quite a bit of damage.

Disintegrate also hits noticeably harder now, though a lot of this is likely because disintegrate was buffed as part of the M15 changes. CWs also seem to be hitting me much harder than before with their other attacks. Ice knife easily takes out most of my health gage and CWs usually kill me in 3 hits or less if I don't succeed in dodging their attacks.

The DCs I have encountered recently in matches are able to kill me rapidly using mostly bleed damage. I usually need to cancel the bleed with bloodbath or kill them as fast as possible. I can remember a DC trying to use a bleed damage build against me last module in a test duel but it didn't seem to be effective back then.

OPs can rapidly eat up my health gage if I stay close to them for too long and they can knock out most of my health gage with one of their daily powers.

TR shocking execution one shot dunks are back, though a lot of this is probably from the rework we got. Most of our other attacks have had a noticeable damage increase as well but so far, I haven't been one shot by any of TR's other powers.

SWs are melting people seemingly even faster than before, though its hard to tell the difference since they could already do that in module 14.

Archer HRs still hit very hard but its difficult to tell the difference since they were already lethal in module 14.

GWFs seem to do more dps now.

Trapper HR is the only build I can remember encountering recently that didn't hit hard.

trgluestickz

As for what is going on, its probably a mix of several different things. A mix of class buffs, weapon damage increases, players adjusting to the changes, and likely a few new bugs thrown into the mix.

kalina311

another thought maybe pvp 75% healing depression ( i believe its that value ) needs to be revisited as well and made slightly less strict ..or it is also bugged now so player are dropping like a fly due to huge boosting crit damage and no way to heal

with stat inflation you dont need to make any build consesion anymore also part of the problem ..no hard build choices
everything is maxed

and with item level 600 gear looming in mod 15
you have crit maxed armor pen maxed and huge amounts of power and recovery as added gravy
with dailies being spammed left and right

leonidrex

kalina311 said:

another thought maybe pvp 75% healing depression ( i believe its that value ) needs to be revisited as well and made slightly less strict ..or it is also bugged now so player are dropping like a fly due to huge boosting crit damage and no way to heal

with stat inflation you dont need to make any build consesion anymore also part of the problem ..no hard build choices
everything is maxed

and with item level 600 gear looming in mod 15
you have crit maxed armor pen maxed and huge amounts of power and recovery as added gravy
with dailies being spammed left and right

just use bugged lion like everyone else

jonkoca

All those archers in pvp. Lol. Sure it isn't just me..?

Mod 13 I was hitting ridiculously hard.
Mod 14 I think people tanked up a bit, and the new eclipse enchant meant a lot of my damage was being deflected. Either way, last mod was a lot tougher than the previous one.
Mod 15 swapped vorpal for dread, and seem to be hitting harder than mod 14, probably due to better penetration. Lacking a lot of crit though now, thnx to the nerf on stillness. And of course being 1 and 2 shot by the nearest GF. Looking at you godfinder and Brutal.

leonidrex

jonkoca said:

All those archers in pvp. Lol. Sure it isn't just me..?

Mod 13 I was hitting ridiculously hard.
Mod 14 I think people tanked up a bit, and the new eclipse enchant meant a lot of my damage was being deflected. Either way, last mod was a lot tougher than the previous one.
Mod 15 swapped vorpal for dread, and seem to be hitting harder than mod 14, probably due to better penetration. Lacking a lot of crit though now, thnx to the nerf on stillness. And of course being 1 and 2 shot by the nearest GF. Looking at you godfinder and Brutal.

dont you just love it when you dodge their entire combo, but even dodged attack applies 150k jagged blades? i sure do !

jonkoca

I just know that I'll be moseying along, minding my own business, innocently firing a few friendly arrows here and there when suddenly, out of the blue, a GF slams into me, drops a lion on my head, and then does that daily with all the swords and I wake up with a headache in spawn.

kalina311

leonidrex said:

kalina311 said:

another thought maybe pvp 75% healing depression ( i believe its that value ) needs to be revisited as well and made slightly less strict ..or it is also bugged now so player are dropping like a fly due to huge boosting crit damage and no way to heal

with stat inflation you dont need to make any build consesion anymore also part of the problem ..no hard build choices
everything is maxed

and with item level 600 gear looming in mod 15
you have crit maxed armor pen maxed and huge amounts of power and recovery as added gravy
with dailies being spammed left and right

just use bugged lion like everyone else

fix broken pvp programming / healing depression by using another broken item(that is not respecting healing depression that cost hundreds of dollars or lockbox luck just a brilliant suggestion there dude keep them coming

am I not allowed to make pvp suggestion for the pc common folk and not just the elite like you ?
players just getting started will love your low barrier to entry solution bro

and there is no "like every one else" lol most people/ average item player do not have a lion to bully other player with unfairly like you possibly do and or are suggesting

P.S and who said i did not have one ..only you tried to imply that snidely . and regardless if i do or i dont am i not allowed to make suggestions and comment on issued that should be fixed ?

P.S.S just lol dude surely you meant your comment sarcastically ..and it was a poor attempt at that and offers nothing usefull to the topic or conversation especially when we have the devs ear and he is reading the topic . ..good day to you sir..try again

leonidrex

kalina311 said:

leonidrex said:

kalina311 said:

another thought maybe pvp 75% healing depression ( i believe its that value ) needs to be revisited as well and made slightly less strict ..or it is also bugged now so player are dropping like a fly due to huge boosting crit damage and no way to heal

with stat inflation you dont need to make any build consesion anymore also part of the problem ..no hard build choices
everything is maxed

and with item level 600 gear looming in mod 15
you have crit maxed armor pen maxed and huge amounts of power and recovery as added gravy
with dailies being spammed left and right

just use bugged lion like everyone else

fix broken pvp programming / healing depression by using another broken item(that is not respecting healing depression that cost hundreds of dollars or lockbox luck just a brilliant suggestion there dude keep them coming

am I not allowed to make pvp suggestion for the pc common folk and not just the elite like you ?
players just getting started will love your low barrier to entry solution bro

and there is no "like every one else" lol most people/ average item player do not have a lion to bully other player with unfairly like you possibly do and or are suggesting

P.S and who said i did not have one ..only you tried to imply that snidely . and regardless if i do or i dont am i not allowed to make suggestions and comment on issued that should be fixed ?

P.S.S just lol dude surely you meant your comment sarcastically ..and it was a poor attempt at that and offers nothing usefull to the topic or conversation especially when we have the devs ear and he is reading the topic . ..good day to you sir..try again

relax my man, i was just joking.I even have lion reported in one of my bug posts. and yea lion is such a overpowered mount. and for some reason its accepted to use it while using mane/cowl is "forbidden". just try fighting 5v5 on a node against 5 ppl with lion, getting healed for 20-30k every 2s very balanced indeed. Comes with it being hard to get so " elite " can flex on less geared players or those that dont know its bugged. Just strip pvp of any items already and make it even fight jeez.
I wouldnt even know its bugged, you know how i found out? becouse GF with this mount healed in the match more then me on my semihealing spec on my pally, so i recorded the logs, read throught them and what a suprise, another thing bugged.

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someonedies

trgluestickz said:

GWFs seem to do more dps now.

A little more but you noticed that the GWF has absolutely 0 protection (it's the only class that still does not have an immunity frames in the class mechanic).

I think this is a good time to increase tenacity reduction, -75% damage, as -75% healing will be reasonable.