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Cheap Mod 15 Buff-Build.

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  • vincentr6669vincentr6669 Member Posts: 235 Arc User
    typo#6563 said:

    As far as Commanding Shot, I do agree it is a slow cast time, but one thing I have been playing around with is doing a double-cast: Commanding Shot and then, before the animation is over, Disruptive Shot. It is a lot like an animation cancel, but I'm not sure if both effects are actually occurring or if Commanding Shot might literally be getting cancelled. The animation does still fire both, but just not sure on the effect. This would be great to verify in an ACT log.

    "Commanding Shot: You can now cast your next power 0.1 seconds before this power completes (up from 0 seconds)"

    It's written here: https://www.arcgames.com/en/games/neverwinter/news/detail/11013123-patch-notes:-version:-nw.105.20181022a.10
  • artifleurartifleur Member Posts: 642 Arc User
    typo#6563 said:

    Hey @jonkoca and @artifleur! Here is an updated version of the Buff HR build from me and Niszdog. It is now two pages. At the bottom of page 2, I include a link to this page (Jonkoca's build) and I mention both of you. This was a helpful discussion! Artifleur, I did also try out your recommendation to not worry so much about crit. But instead of Constricting Arrow, I used Binding Arrow so that I could get Oaken Skin as a third buff. I was getting plenty of stamina anyway. Your recommendation works quite well, but I decided to stick with crit to allow more flexibility in the choice of other potential third buffs, that don't inherently proc roots like Binding Arrow does. Either way, both approaches seem to get the job done on the damage buff.

    I may follow-up to share some additional info tomorrow. I've got an HR on PC who is performing some tests to clarify the net effect of how HR buffs combine together. That should be interesting!

    http://bit.ly/Buff-HR-Build

    Thanks for the update.

    Binding Arrow seems like a good choice, I'll try it.

    Why did you take Slasher's Speed? Are you using Slasher's Mark? I prefer Fleet Stance.
  • jonkocajonkoca Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,586 Arc User
    edited December 2018
    I took it because I usually have full ap, our other dailies are crappy, and slashers marks it's target with some magic thingummyjig that gives everyone who hits it some stamina I seem to remember.

    Tbh, I don't see why everyone is so down on fox. I did a lot of runs in CR during the last weeks for a new hat and boots for pvp, and when I didn't have foxes on, especially at the last boss, I noticed people dying more often, more scrolls used etc. I just started switching it for thornward for the acrolith boss for the OPs sake. And the buff from binding is pretty much pants.

    Imho, a free dodge for everyone every couple of seconds is kinda a win.
    No idea what my toon is now.
  • typo#6563 typo Member Posts: 227 Arc User
    Ok, I've updated my version of the buff build to now show the multiplicative damage buff for LSS+Hawkeye. Those buffs do not just simply add together! Below are the test results from Yona in the HR Discord group. He is a French PC player and so he had to translate a bit to English, so please excuse the French remnants. The console numbers were also separately verified by Ash Willowbrook of the HR Discord group. These results clearly place Buff HRs among the best damage buffers in the game. Better than Templocks.

    Tests done by [email protected], for any question, contact me by mail / messages in game or at Séra’@8999 on discord :)

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------

    Test of Commanding shot ( big stag ) :
    Basic Damage : 210
    Damage post-buff : 241
    -> Damage increased by : 15% ( as debuff )
    Duration : 14 secs.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Test of Hawkeye ( with primal instincs )
    Basic Damage : 472
    Damage post-buff : 560
    -> Damage increased by : 18.6% ( as buff )
    Duration : 5 secs

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Test of Thorn ward :
    Basic Damage : 210
    Damage post-buff : 251
    -> Damage increased by : 19.5% ( as debuff )
    Debuff max in 10 secs ( ~2% per secs ).
    The power lasts 15 secs
    The debuff disappear after 20 secs ( 5 secs after the end of the spell )

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Test of longstrider’s shot :
    Basic Damage : 210
    Damage post-buff : 294 ( constant for 4 secs )
    -> Damage increased by : 40% ( as buff )
    Is constant during the 4 secs

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Pour les tests suivants :
    A = Commanding shot
    B = Hawkeye ( with primal instincts )
    C = Thorn ward
    D = Longstrider’s shot

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    A + B :
    Basic Damage : 472
    Damage post buffs-debuffs : 644
    -> Damage increased by : 36.5%

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    A + C :
    Basic Damage : 210
    Damage post buffs-debuffs : 282
    -> Damage increased by : 34.3%

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    A + D :
    Basic Damage : 210
    Damage post buffs-debuffs : 338
    -> Damage increased by : 61%

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    B + C :
    Basic Damage : 472
    Damage post buffs-debuffs : 672
    -> Damage increased by : 42.4%

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    B + D :
    Basic Damage : 472
    Damage post buffs-debuffs : 784
    -> Damage increased by : 66.1%

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    C+D :
    Basic Damage : 210
    Damage post buffs-debuffs : 352
    -> Damage increased by : 67.6%

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    A + B + C :
    Basic Damage : 801
    Damage post buffs-debuffs : 1509
    -> Damage increased by : 88.4%

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    A + B + D :
    Basic Damage : 200
    Damage post buffs-debuffs : 383
    -> Damage increased by : 91.5%

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    B + C + D :
    Basic Damage : 801
    Damage post buffs-debuffs : 1596
    -> Damage increased by : 99.25%

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Les Basic Damage = 200 are the damage of gushing wound .
    Les Basic Damage = 210 are the damage of rapid shot
    Les Basic Damage = 472 are the damage of hindering shot
    Les Basic Damage = 801 are the damage of thorn strike
    Extraneous Typo

  • typo#6563 typo Member Posts: 227 Arc User
    edited December 2018
    artifleur said:


    Thanks for the update.

    Binding Arrow seems like a good choice, I'll try it.

    Why did you take Slasher's Speed? Are you using Slasher's Mark? I prefer Fleet Stance.

    @artifleur @jonkoca I see nothing wrong with choice of Fleet Stance. I do not have a strong reason for Slasher's Speed other than I was simply considering the possibility I might want to use Slasher's Mark. I mostly use Disruptive Shot though for procing Shepperd's Devotion, so I do not see Slasher's very often coming up. So Fleet Stance might generally be more useful.
    Post edited by typo#6563 on
    Extraneous Typo

  • jonkocajonkoca Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,586 Arc User
    Looks like BCD ftw.
    No idea what my toon is now.
  • typo#6563 typo Member Posts: 227 Arc User
    edited December 2018
    jonkoca said:

    Looks like BCD ftw.

    That's really what made me pick that feat. It lowers the action point requirement and, if Slasher's was being used for some reason, then it would really help so you could keep using it more quickly. Ultimately the whole philosophy is low cooldowns, fast recovery, and a fast rotation of buffs.
    Extraneous Typo

  • artifleurartifleur Member Posts: 642 Arc User
    Testing stuff is always a good idea but there really was no need for that kind of tests. The way buffs and debuffs work is no mistery.

    Damage buffs all are separate multipliers, and as such multiplicative. +X% damage means your damage is multiplied by 1+X/100.

    With Longstrider and Hawkeye running, everyone's encounter damage is multiplied by 1.4*1.1875 = 1.6625 which means +66.25% damage.

    Damage Resistance debuffs are a bit more complicated. The target's Damage Resistance is first reduced by your Resistance Ignored to a minimum of 0. After that all DR debuffs are added together to reduce the previous value, possibly into a negative value. DR debuffs however also suffer from a built-in exponential dimishing returns system which further reduce its overwhole effectiveness the more DR debuffs are applied to the target. I don't remember the value at which it starts to be important but I believe it is somewhere around 80%. In other words, DR debuffs become a lot less effective than damage buffs of similar values while in a group with enough people applying additional DR debuffs. Provided that you are all alone and have enough Resistance Ignored, applying both Commanding Shot and Thorn Ward (at max stacks) gives 1+0.15+0.2 = 1.35 => +35% (not 34.3) extra damage. In a good group, it will give about half as much maybe less.

    Some values are somewhat off but not far from reality. I double checked some just in case, Hawkeye gives +18.75% not 18.6% and Thorn Ward gives -20% DR at max stack, not -19.5%. All tooltips are right (for once!).

    The buff HR is certainly not better than a Temptation Warlock, but it's getting close. Don't forget that Hawkey only works for encounter damage.

    In terms of damage buffs, the SW has Pillar of Power (+18%) and Warlock's Curse (+20%). For DR debuffs, Dreadtheft (-25%), Pillar (-10%), Aura of Despair (-5%).

    On top of that, a SW can also bring some extra effects like +20% base Power with Dark Revelry, combat advantage with Eldritch Momentum, extra healing and damage debuffs. It's not much but it is something.

    So the buff HR is good but it could still use some extra love.
  • jonkocajonkoca Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,586 Arc User
    Can we have extra love for archer first plz. And combat second..?
    No idea what my toon is now.
  • leonidrexleonidrex Member Posts: 397 Arc User
    edited December 2018
    @artifleur LSS alone equals buffs from SW, debuffs dont matter almost at all, with BiS parties 30% debuff from bane is worth mb around 5% overall damage boost. HR can too provide CA with aspect of the pack, i personally think HR is a better buffer then SW . Also important note is movespeed, LSS makes you run faster, its very good when used right before last mob dies.
  • artifleurartifleur Member Posts: 642 Arc User
    The only thing I don't like is the range limitation of longstrider, if only primal instinct could make it work at close range it would be golden.
  • typo#6563 typo Member Posts: 227 Arc User
    @artifleur I do understand damage buffs being multiplicative is not new information, however given the rather extensive changes to HR feats and powers, as well as the complaints about bugs during preview, it just seemed prudent to perform the testing and validate these basic assumptions, especially since the build is really focused on buffing. The fractional differences in a few cases are probably some kind of random variance... but I do think the values are close enough that they do seem to verify that a multiplicative effect is occurring and, as you said, that the tooltip values are correct. I'm pretty happy with these results. As far as my comparison to other classes, mainly I was just comparing damage buffs, not really making a holistic comparison across the board. But if including debuffs, then the last test above combining LSS + Hawkeye + Thorn Ward is even a little more impressive, as it is showing a +99.25% buff/debuff total effective increase in damage. Of course, as pointed out, in actual practice, the debuff may not work as well as in that test. In the rotations section of my build, I show how HR buffers can bring other benefits too, including damage mitigation, temporary hit points, healing, and of course the classic dodge. I don't utilize combat advantage in my build, but as @leonidrex said, that is something else HRs can do. Overall, HRs seem to have quite impressive capabilities as a buffer.
    Extraneous Typo

  • jonkocajonkoca Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,586 Arc User
    Been fiddling with this build a lot, using cheapo stuff from the AH. Bought the valhalla set for extra tankiness, swapped out gear on my pet for extra recovery - now at 23k lol. Bought a coin of tymora artifact etc.

    A lot of buff for your buck.
    No idea what my toon is now.
  • leonidrexleonidrex Member Posts: 397 Arc User
    @jonkoca i would look more towards debuff set like apo or the other one, ( hawk should count as aoe ).
    valhalla doesnt really help much, its usually either 1hit KO or survive
  • jonkocajonkoca Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,586 Arc User
    Nah, I'm immortal now, magic lords surcoat, massive defence, insane runspeed... Just call me Mr. Lastmanstanding.
    No idea what my toon is now.
  • thefiresidecatthefiresidecat Member Posts: 4,111 Arc User
    leonidrex said:

    use :
    debuff enchant, ( dread,plague,frost) 9/12/12% debuff
    dancing shield 20% debuff
    drow 5% debuff
    mw weapon set 2% buff
    hawkeye 12,5% encounter buff ( 19%? with class feature )
    LSS 40% buff
    thorn ward 20% debuff
    trex for debuff or lion for buff 10% debuff or delayed """ 6% """ buff
    chromatic storm/thirst/banner for debuff or wheel to buff main dps if supports dont have it ( big yikes )
    this build is actually very very good, and smart players that know how other classes work will be really content with inviting those that use it to groups.
    important thing : dont use fox shift if you have protection paladin in your group ( if he is tanking ) it reduces the power he generates.

    doesn't fox also mess with dps gfs the same way cleanse does?


  • thefiresidecatthefiresidecat Member Posts: 4,111 Arc User
    jonkoca said:

    Nah, I'm immortal now, magic lords surcoat, massive defence, insane runspeed... Just call me Mr. Lastmanstanding.

    the shadow demon is pretty good for invincibility too as I recall.


  • jonkocajonkoca Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,586 Arc User
    Hah, yes you're right. I'll put mine back in the active 5.
    No idea what my toon is now.
  • wdj40wdj40 Member Posts: 1,958 Arc User
    jonkoca said:

    Been fiddling with this build a lot, using cheapo stuff from the AH. Bought the valhalla set for extra tankiness, swapped out gear on my pet for extra recovery - now at 23k lol. Bought a coin of tymora artifact etc.

    A lot of buff for your buck.

    lol, I run the Valhalla Set... dude you are slowly turning into me... Dread, Valhalla etc etc :)
    Main - Rydia (HR70) - Xbox One Player only
    Alts :
    Storm (SW70), Edge (TR70), AD Farm (CW70), Grunt (GF70), Rosa (DC70), AD AD AD (GWF70), Your Mum (OP70)

    Member of Q-Snipe
  • teucer#3019 teucer Member Posts: 192 Arc User

    leonidrex said:

    use :
    debuff enchant, ( dread,plague,frost) 9/12/12% debuff
    dancing shield 20% debuff
    drow 5% debuff
    mw weapon set 2% buff
    hawkeye 12,5% encounter buff ( 19%? with class feature )
    LSS 40% buff
    thorn ward 20% debuff
    trex for debuff or lion for buff 10% debuff or delayed """ 6% """ buff
    chromatic storm/thirst/banner for debuff or wheel to buff main dps if supports dont have it ( big yikes )
    this build is actually very very good, and smart players that know how other classes work will be really content with inviting those that use it to groups.
    important thing : dont use fox shift if you have protection paladin in your group ( if he is tanking ) it reduces the power he generates.

    doesn't fox also mess with dps gfs the same way cleanse does?
    You are correct, want to avoid it because of the reset it does. When you hear someone complain about their interrupted ramp-up, its a cleanse like reset.

    The Legendary Outlaws
  • jonkocajonkoca Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,586 Arc User
    edited January 2019
    wdj40 said:

    jonkoca said:

    Been fiddling with this build a lot, using cheapo stuff from the AH. Bought the valhalla set for extra tankiness, swapped out gear on my pet for extra recovery - now at 23k lol. Bought a coin of tymora artifact etc.

    A lot of buff for your buck.

    lol, I run the Valhalla Set... dude you are slowly turning into me... Dread, Valhalla etc etc :)
    Lol sure, but only for the expert Q dungeons, other than that it's standard combat all the way. ☺

    leonidrex said:

    use :
    debuff enchant, ( dread,plague,frost) 9/12/12% debuff
    dancing shield 20% debuff
    drow 5% debuff
    mw weapon set 2% buff
    hawkeye 12,5% encounter buff ( 19%? with class feature )
    LSS 40% buff
    thorn ward 20% debuff
    trex for debuff or lion for buff 10% debuff or delayed """ 6% """ buff
    chromatic storm/thirst/banner for debuff or wheel to buff main dps if supports dont have it ( big yikes )
    this build is actually very very good, and smart players that know how other classes work will be really content with inviting those that use it to groups.
    important thing : dont use fox shift if you have protection paladin in your group ( if he is tanking ) it reduces the power he generates.

    doesn't fox also mess with dps gfs the same way cleanse does?
    You are correct, want to avoid it because of the reset it does. When you hear someone complain about their interrupted ramp-up, its a cleanse like reset.

    Yeah, I switch it out for thornward on bosses. Or if someone asks etc. Binding is okay too.

    Gear at the moment.

    Ras mancha's hat.
    Magic lord chest.
    Lycosas gloves
    Gallant feet (recovery one)

    Valhalla set.

    +5 ring of rising recovery/+5 ring of rising defence.

    Tymoras coin artifact main, thirst, DC sigil, giant eye.

    Tiger pet's gear swapped out for recovery rings and neck.

    20k + defence and recovery. 230k HP. 45% deflect alongside shadowdemon pet.
    No idea what my toon is now.
  • teucer#3019 teucer Member Posts: 192 Arc User
    jonkoca said:




    doesn't fox also mess with dps gfs the same way cleanse does?

    You are correct, want to avoid it because of the reset it does. When you hear someone complain about their interrupted ramp-up, its a cleanse like reset.

    Yeah, I switch it out for thornward on bosses. Or if someone asks etc. Binding is okay too.

    Definitely Thornward, especially when you buff it to 350K+ crits. But for the HR, DPS is down in Mod15?
    The Legendary Outlaws
  • jonkocajonkoca Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,586 Arc User
    Nah, we're as good as ever, it's just that gwfs are better. And tbh, buffs are easier/lazier. Make those gwfs work for us lol.
    No idea what my toon is now.
  • wdj40wdj40 Member Posts: 1,958 Arc User
    edited January 2019
    jonkoca said:

    wdj40 said:

    jonkoca said:

    Been fiddling with this build a lot, using cheapo stuff from the AH. Bought the valhalla set for extra tankiness, swapped out gear on my pet for extra recovery - now at 23k lol. Bought a coin of tymora artifact etc.

    A lot of buff for your buck.

    lol, I run the Valhalla Set... dude you are slowly turning into me... Dread, Valhalla etc etc :)
    Lol sure, but only for the expert Q dungeons, other than that it's standard combat all the way. ☺

    leonidrex said:

    use :
    debuff enchant, ( dread,plague,frost) 9/12/12% debuff
    dancing shield 20% debuff
    drow 5% debuff
    mw weapon set 2% buff
    hawkeye 12,5% encounter buff ( 19%? with class feature )
    LSS 40% buff
    thorn ward 20% debuff
    trex for debuff or lion for buff 10% debuff or delayed """ 6% """ buff
    chromatic storm/thirst/banner for debuff or wheel to buff main dps if supports dont have it ( big yikes )
    this build is actually very very good, and smart players that know how other classes work will be really content with inviting those that use it to groups.
    important thing : dont use fox shift if you have protection paladin in your group ( if he is tanking ) it reduces the power he generates.

    doesn't fox also mess with dps gfs the same way cleanse does?
    You are correct, want to avoid it because of the reset it does. When you hear someone complain about their interrupted ramp-up, its a cleanse like reset.

    Yeah, I switch it out for thornward on bosses. Or if someone asks etc. Binding is okay too.

    Gear at the moment.

    Ras mancha's hat.
    Magic lord chest.
    Lycosas gloves
    Gallant feet (recovery one)

    Valhalla set.

    +5 ring of rising recovery/+5 ring of rising defence.

    Tymoras coin artifact main, thirst, DC sigil, giant eye.

    Tiger pet's gear swapped out for recovery rings and neck.

    20k + defence and recovery. 230k HP. 45% deflect alongside shadowdemon pet.
    Sorry I meant PvP not PvE Jonk :) I have not run any PvE for months.
    Main - Rydia (HR70) - Xbox One Player only
    Alts :
    Storm (SW70), Edge (TR70), AD Farm (CW70), Grunt (GF70), Rosa (DC70), AD AD AD (GWF70), Your Mum (OP70)

    Member of Q-Snipe
  • jonkocajonkoca Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,586 Arc User
    edited January 2019
    Ahh. This is a pure pve build. Personal dps is not a high priority lol.

    Just did probably my quickest Tong ever with this build and a decent lfg party. We just blitzed through everything.

    Also just junked the valhalla set to refine new beaded amulet/bronzewood sash for my pvp build. Though the recovery from the set bonus is useful for this build too.
    No idea what my toon is now.
  • wdj40wdj40 Member Posts: 1,958 Arc User
    jonkoca said:

    Ahh. This is a pure pve build. Personal dps is not a high priority lol.

    Just did probably my quickest Tong ever with this build and a decent lfg party. We just blitzed through everything.

    Also just junked the valhalla set to refine new beaded amulet/bronzewood sash for my pvp build. Though the recovery from the set bonus is useful for this build too.

    lol yeah sorry dude I was in the wrong thread it seems :)
    Main - Rydia (HR70) - Xbox One Player only
    Alts :
    Storm (SW70), Edge (TR70), AD Farm (CW70), Grunt (GF70), Rosa (DC70), AD AD AD (GWF70), Your Mum (OP70)

    Member of Q-Snipe
  • thefiresidecatthefiresidecat Member Posts: 4,111 Arc User
    edited January 2019
    typo#6563 said:

    Ok, I've updated my version of the buff build to now show the multiplicative damage buff for LSS+Hawkeye. Those buffs do not just simply add together! Below are the test results from Yona in the HR Discord group. He is a French PC player and so he had to translate a bit to English, so please excuse the French remnants. The console numbers were also separately verified by Ash Willowbrook of the HR Discord group. These results clearly place Buff HRs among the best damage buffers in the game. Better than Templocks.

    Tests done by [email protected], for any question, contact me by mail / messages in game or at Séra’@8999 on discord :)

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------

    Test of Commanding shot ( big stag ) :
    Basic Damage : 210
    Damage post-buff : 241
    -> Damage increased by : 15% ( as debuff )
    Duration : 14 secs.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Test of Hawkeye ( with primal instincs )
    Basic Damage : 472
    Damage post-buff : 560
    -> Damage increased by : 18.6% ( as buff )
    Duration : 5 secs

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Test of Thorn ward :
    Basic Damage : 210
    Damage post-buff : 251
    -> Damage increased by : 19.5% ( as debuff )
    Debuff max in 10 secs ( ~2% per secs ).
    The power lasts 15 secs
    The debuff disappear after 20 secs ( 5 secs after the end of the spell )

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Test of longstrider’s shot :
    Basic Damage : 210
    Damage post-buff : 294 ( constant for 4 secs )
    -> Damage increased by : 40% ( as buff )
    Is constant during the 4 secs

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Pour les tests suivants :
    A = Commanding shot
    B = Hawkeye ( with primal instincts )
    C = Thorn ward
    D = Longstrider’s shot

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    A + B :
    Basic Damage : 472
    Damage post buffs-debuffs : 644
    -> Damage increased by : 36.5%

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    A + C :
    Basic Damage : 210
    Damage post buffs-debuffs : 282
    -> Damage increased by : 34.3%

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    A + D :
    Basic Damage : 210
    Damage post buffs-debuffs : 338
    -> Damage increased by : 61%

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    B + C :
    Basic Damage : 472
    Damage post buffs-debuffs : 672
    -> Damage increased by : 42.4%

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    B + D :
    Basic Damage : 472
    Damage post buffs-debuffs : 784
    -> Damage increased by : 66.1%

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    C+D :
    Basic Damage : 210
    Damage post buffs-debuffs : 352
    -> Damage increased by : 67.6%

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    A + B + C :
    Basic Damage : 801
    Damage post buffs-debuffs : 1509
    -> Damage increased by : 88.4%

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    A + B + D :
    Basic Damage : 200
    Damage post buffs-debuffs : 383
    -> Damage increased by : 91.5%

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    B + C + D :
    Basic Damage : 801
    Damage post buffs-debuffs : 1596
    -> Damage increased by : 99.25%

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Les Basic Damage = 200 are the damage of gushing wound .
    Les Basic Damage = 210 are the damage of rapid shot
    Les Basic Damage = 472 are the damage of hindering shot
    Les Basic Damage = 801 are the damage of thorn strike


    what about acd? it seems like without primal you could put something in like aspect and just keep with your old trapper build wiht higher end gear and do a bit of damage as well as doing buffing. As a 17.3 hr with all the gear I need to be a trapper it seems wrong to go with pure buff instead of going hybrid. especially when it seems like you'd be very close to the pure buff build. ofc. haven't tested.. it seemed like in the old days keeping up lss was no where near impossible with a straight up trapper build. edit I guess none of those things apply roots. I guess you could switch out the least powerful for hindering shot. I am not sure if the damage you'd add would equal the partys damage from the missing one. seems like more testing would be nice here. most of the people in this particular conversation are not 12k hrs (I'd be surprised if I weren't the lowest IL here lol)_... as end game hrs going pure buff seems bassackwards. IDK. maybe it's not :) but moar testing...
    Post edited by thefiresidecat on


  • leonidrexleonidrex Member Posts: 397 Arc User

    typo#6563 said:

    Ok, I've updated my version of the buff build to now show the multiplicative damage buff for LSS+Hawkeye. Those buffs do not just simply add together! Below are the test results from Yona in the HR Discord group. He is a French PC player and so he had to translate a bit to English, so please excuse the French remnants. The console numbers were also separately verified by Ash Willowbrook of the HR Discord group. These results clearly place Buff HRs among the best damage buffers in the game. Better than Templocks.

    Tests done by [email protected], for any question, contact me by mail / messages in game or at Séra’@8999 on discord :)

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------

    Test of Commanding shot ( big stag ) :
    Basic Damage : 210
    Damage post-buff : 241
    -> Damage increased by : 15% ( as debuff )
    Duration : 14 secs.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Test of Hawkeye ( with primal instincs )
    Basic Damage : 472
    Damage post-buff : 560
    -> Damage increased by : 18.6% ( as buff )
    Duration : 5 secs

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Test of Thorn ward :
    Basic Damage : 210
    Damage post-buff : 251
    -> Damage increased by : 19.5% ( as debuff )
    Debuff max in 10 secs ( ~2% per secs ).
    The power lasts 15 secs
    The debuff disappear after 20 secs ( 5 secs after the end of the spell )

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Test of longstrider’s shot :
    Basic Damage : 210
    Damage post-buff : 294 ( constant for 4 secs )
    -> Damage increased by : 40% ( as buff )
    Is constant during the 4 secs

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Pour les tests suivants :
    A = Commanding shot
    B = Hawkeye ( with primal instincts )
    C = Thorn ward
    D = Longstrider’s shot

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    A + B :
    Basic Damage : 472
    Damage post buffs-debuffs : 644
    -> Damage increased by : 36.5%

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    A + C :
    Basic Damage : 210
    Damage post buffs-debuffs : 282
    -> Damage increased by : 34.3%

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    A + D :
    Basic Damage : 210
    Damage post buffs-debuffs : 338
    -> Damage increased by : 61%

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    B + C :
    Basic Damage : 472
    Damage post buffs-debuffs : 672
    -> Damage increased by : 42.4%

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    B + D :
    Basic Damage : 472
    Damage post buffs-debuffs : 784
    -> Damage increased by : 66.1%

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    C+D :
    Basic Damage : 210
    Damage post buffs-debuffs : 352
    -> Damage increased by : 67.6%

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    A + B + C :
    Basic Damage : 801
    Damage post buffs-debuffs : 1509
    -> Damage increased by : 88.4%

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    A + B + D :
    Basic Damage : 200
    Damage post buffs-debuffs : 383
    -> Damage increased by : 91.5%

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    B + C + D :
    Basic Damage : 801
    Damage post buffs-debuffs : 1596
    -> Damage increased by : 99.25%

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Les Basic Damage = 200 are the damage of gushing wound .
    Les Basic Damage = 210 are the damage of rapid shot
    Les Basic Damage = 472 are the damage of hindering shot
    Les Basic Damage = 801 are the damage of thorn strike


    what about acd? it seems like without primal you could put something in like aspect and just keep with your old trapper build wiht higher end gear and do a bit of damage as well as doing buffing. As a 17.3 hr with all the gear I need to be a trapper it seems wrong to go with pure buff instead of going hybrid. especially when it seems like you'd be very close to the pure buff build. ofc. haven't tested.. it seemed like in the old days keeping up lss was no where near impossible with a straight up trapper build. edit I guess none of those things apply roots. I guess you could switch out the least powerful for hindering shot. I am not sure if the damage you'd add would equal the partys damage from the missing one. seems like more testing would be nice here. most of the people in this particular conversation are not 12k hrs (I'd be surprised if I weren't the lowest IL here lol)_... as end game hrs going pure buff seems bassackwards. IDK. maybe it's not :) but moar testing...
    thorn ward is a debuff, hawkeye is a BUFF. huge difference. And in PvE there is a point, where 5-10% buff for main dps is more then you could ever hope to do, its how the buffs work im afraid :/ wheel,thome,bane,exaltation, trexes and soulsight.
  • thefiresidecatthefiresidecat Member Posts: 4,111 Arc User
    edited January 2019
    leonidrex said:

    typo#6563 said:

    Ok, I've updated my version of the buff build to now show the multiplicative damage buff for LSS+Hawkeye. Those buffs do not just simply add together! Below are the test results from Yona in the HR Discord group. He is a French PC player and so he had to translate a bit to English, so please excuse the French remnants. The console numbers were also separately verified by Ash Willowbrook of the HR Discord group. These results clearly place Buff HRs among the best damage buffers in the game. Better than Templocks.

    Tests done by [email protected], for any question, contact me by mail / messages in game or at Séra’@8999 on discord :)

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------

    Test of Commanding shot ( big stag ) :
    Basic Damage : 210
    Damage post-buff : 241
    -> Damage increased by : 15% ( as debuff )
    Duration : 14 secs.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Test of Hawkeye ( with primal instincs )
    Basic Damage : 472
    Damage post-buff : 560
    -> Damage increased by : 18.6% ( as buff )
    Duration : 5 secs

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Test of Thorn ward :
    Basic Damage : 210
    Damage post-buff : 251
    -> Damage increased by : 19.5% ( as debuff )
    Debuff max in 10 secs ( ~2% per secs ).
    The power lasts 15 secs
    The debuff disappear after 20 secs ( 5 secs after the end of the spell )

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Test of longstrider’s shot :
    Basic Damage : 210
    Damage post-buff : 294 ( constant for 4 secs )
    -> Damage increased by : 40% ( as buff )
    Is constant during the 4 secs

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Pour les tests suivants :
    A = Commanding shot
    B = Hawkeye ( with primal instincts )
    C = Thorn ward
    D = Longstrider’s shot

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    A + B :
    Basic Damage : 472
    Damage post buffs-debuffs : 644
    -> Damage increased by : 36.5%

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    A + C :
    Basic Damage : 210
    Damage post buffs-debuffs : 282
    -> Damage increased by : 34.3%

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    A + D :
    Basic Damage : 210
    Damage post buffs-debuffs : 338
    -> Damage increased by : 61%

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    B + C :
    Basic Damage : 472
    Damage post buffs-debuffs : 672
    -> Damage increased by : 42.4%

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    B + D :
    Basic Damage : 472
    Damage post buffs-debuffs : 784
    -> Damage increased by : 66.1%

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    C+D :
    Basic Damage : 210
    Damage post buffs-debuffs : 352
    -> Damage increased by : 67.6%

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    A + B + C :
    Basic Damage : 801
    Damage post buffs-debuffs : 1509
    -> Damage increased by : 88.4%

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    A + B + D :
    Basic Damage : 200
    Damage post buffs-debuffs : 383
    -> Damage increased by : 91.5%

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    B + C + D :
    Basic Damage : 801
    Damage post buffs-debuffs : 1596
    -> Damage increased by : 99.25%

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Les Basic Damage = 200 are the damage of gushing wound .
    Les Basic Damage = 210 are the damage of rapid shot
    Les Basic Damage = 472 are the damage of hindering shot
    Les Basic Damage = 801 are the damage of thorn strike


    what about acd? it seems like without primal you could put something in like aspect and just keep with your old trapper build wiht higher end gear and do a bit of damage as well as doing buffing. As a 17.3 hr with all the gear I need to be a trapper it seems wrong to go with pure buff instead of going hybrid. especially when it seems like you'd be very close to the pure buff build. ofc. haven't tested.. it seemed like in the old days keeping up lss was no where near impossible with a straight up trapper build. edit I guess none of those things apply roots. I guess you could switch out the least powerful for hindering shot. I am not sure if the damage you'd add would equal the partys damage from the missing one. seems like more testing would be nice here. most of the people in this particular conversation are not 12k hrs (I'd be surprised if I weren't the lowest IL here lol)_... as end game hrs going pure buff seems bassackwards. IDK. maybe it's not :) but moar testing...
    thorn ward is a debuff, hawkeye is a BUFF. huge difference. And in PvE there is a point, where 5-10% buff for main dps is more then you could ever hope to do, its how the buffs work im afraid :/ wheel,thome,bane,exaltation, trexes and soulsight.

    stop getting all semantic on me when I say buff I mean buff debuff. it's just short hand. :)

    after playing with rotations commanding shot takes a painful long time. how is anyone going to keep up a solid rotation with that in there. and you say that, but hrs can do a decent amount of damage. trappers can do a decent amount of damage. a trapper isn't as good as a combat but I don't see the tests showing that we would be doing such a disservice by keeping some deeps in our toon.


    plus it seems more difficult/ possibly unrealistic to keep everything in a 4 second window with these longer casting powers. the hybrid archer/trapper with no capstone has slower cool down for me than straight up trapper. it's far easier to keep a rotation up with fast casting powers pure trapper capstone and thus more likely that the group is actually seeing those buffs. when you're at a camp fire it's different than when you're in the field getting hit with stuns and knockdowns. sometimes these builds strike me as a bit idealistic. (came up on that with mod 15 ac build as well)

    it's more actual time it takes to do rotation than recovery
    Post edited by thefiresidecat on


  • jonkocajonkoca Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,586 Arc User
    My rotation is crazy quick, I try to get hawkeye in and then LSS back to back.

    Usually it goes (at LSS range) Hawkeye, switch, LSS, disrupt (shepherds), foxdodge, hunters teamworkx1, switch, foxshift, hawkeye, switch, LSS, disrupt, foxdodge... repeat.

    I move to drop tymoras coin arti, or pop swift lion buff.

    For bosses I drop TW once every 2/3 rotations and substitute another atwill for when I don't for cooldowns. The entire rotation takes less than 4 seconds so both Hawkeye and LSS are always up. Unless there is some running about involved. Which there usually isn't because my personal damage is so low.

    This build is useful in FBI at the bosses. For CR everywhere. For MSP except the 2nd boss. For Tong its up to you if the other dps is good, I buff, if they're not, I go dps. For Codg everywhere, mainly cos you can't swap loadouts anyway.

    You can ofc. go as main dps, I've done that too. It's just that as HR can buff another pure dps toon, but often they can't buff you. The HR has always been a multifaceted class.
    No idea what my toon is now.
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