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rapo973
Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 831 Arc User
I don't want to open another discussion about AC, DO, DC vs SW, DC vs OP, DC vs OP vs SW vs CW and so on.
I'm not so negative about the changes (Terrifying insight in particular): the DO still provides some buffs to the group while my QoL when I've to do the daily quests is improved.
I would like to read more from the so called "dps DC" to know how it's going.
Two minor notes that I didn't find in the patch note:
- The calculation of the AP gain is changed. I was at 118% before mod 15, now I'm at 85%, given the same equipment.
- The buff from BoS is reduced from 30% down to 28% (I don't have to game open...I read it yesterday, I hope I'm not wrong).
I don't know if something about the above is written here https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1242645/m15-devoted-cleric-class-changes/p1: too long to read
I'm not so negative about the changes (Terrifying insight in particular): the DO still provides some buffs to the group while my QoL when I've to do the daily quests is improved.
I would like to read more from the so called "dps DC" to know how it's going.
Two minor notes that I didn't find in the patch note:
- The calculation of the AP gain is changed. I was at 118% before mod 15, now I'm at 85%, given the same equipment.
- The buff from BoS is reduced from 30% down to 28% (I don't have to game open...I read it yesterday, I hope I'm not wrong).
I don't know if something about the above is written here https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1242645/m15-devoted-cleric-class-changes/p1: too long to read
Oltreverso guild leader
Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF
Post edited by rapo973 on
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1. Multiplicative formula changed to additive with higher magnitude is actually a buff to majority of the players.
2. WIth R4 Divine Fortune, R5 Bountiful Fortune and reworked Avatar, the optimal at-will loadout for DO DPS DC moves from 1x BotS + 3x LoF to 1x BotS + 3x SF or 1x BotS + 2x ASeal. (Both averaged as 3.3 seconds for 3 pips of divinity).
Guess it is good? WAIT!!! OF CUZ NO!!!
3. The new BotS at-will QoL "improvement" successfully "improved" players QoL by stucking them at 2.9 pips of divinity, wasting another split second for the BotS to tick for the last 0.1 pip before entering divinity spamming mode with rotations mentioned above, effectively removing all beneficts from changing the divinity formula. The most reliable way is still 1x BotS + 3x LoF which has no difference compared to the previous module, but this time we lost the ability to reliably generate divinity from BotS ticks.
To sum up, with all the divinity changes in this module, we got a overall big nerf on our QoL, the time needed to reach 3 pips of divinity is still roughly the same, but this time the fluency of our gameplay is broken. Devs never read and appreciate our feedbacks, this QoL revert request is already been proposed for 2 months, yet no one response on it, even we stress it out on every places.
Lets see whether any moderators or devs will read this and discuss with us after @ them here. Its been 2 months... They act like DC feedback thread is not exist. Disappointed....
@terramak @frozenfirevr @noworries#8859
The damage certainly is higher, but I'm not certain how much of that is really from the buff and how much that is from me changing gear and focus. Certainly an end game DC is not doing half the damage of a similarly geared GWF. Granted I'm still focusing on up time of BtS and DG. Can't quit convince myself to give my party the big middle finger and switch those to DL and FS. Also I still have to farm the eyestalk wraps.
I really wish they would just simplify all this and insert diminishing returns. It just seems they have been working so hard over the last 9 mods to work around this design mistake which could level out the demand for support across classes and making "balancing" feel less like a hack and slash.
In a 5 player instances, assuming you eliminate AC as a possibility, a competent DO is better than any other support out there, except for maybe Afkadin. The combo of HG+EmpBtS+TI+dDG+extra debuffs is such a ridiculously good teamwide DPS increase that is very hard to pass up for anything else.
If you account for an AC that isn't a complete idiot, then you would kick out the DO for an AC. A good AC in the new module will have powershare, HG, EmpExalt, and EmpBtS up when it's time to attack. Compared to previous modules, the rotation will take much longer unless something I remember reading about has changed. Then, in that case, you could compare it to the speed of consoles, if slower due missing things like a stronger TI and EmpFF's buff.
If you account for a 10 player instance, then there is room for a DO in the team and will function fairly similarly to double DC teams on consoles. The setups I am thinking of are DO using the usual HG/EmpBtS/TI/etc. kit while AC will focus on AA+Emp Exalting multiple DPS players.
I do not think it is worth bringing an extra DC in this 10 player instance, as you only gain perma two Exalt/perma AA on char (extra AC) or EmpPoD/extra chip damage if DPS (DO), with extra Hastening proc being universal to the contributions two paths.
I realize that the 10 player instances love to have mechanics that screw with rotations (Svardborg: Ice, deathbabby: hands) and thus makes lining up a bunch of buffs extremely difficult if unlucky. However, I think that these weaknesses can be partially mitigated by changing your plans around it (ex: deathbabby, wait to launch buffs ~2 seconds after you kill hand) rather than trying to play everything exactly the same as before.
I don't deny the usefulness of any of it, especially the extra Hastening, as I have seen one phases gotten and missed by one extra Hastening proc. I theorize that you could make up for the loss of the extra Hastening proc ... by bringing some extra chip damage to raise team's damage.
If you absolutely insist on 3 DCs, I think the extra AC would provide the most uniqueness, as the DO's extra contribution's are pretty easily eclipsed by bringing a Combat HR using Thorn Ward, a Renegade MoF CW dealing damage, or taking pity on the poor Trickster Benchwarmers.
For private queues. I think taking double DC is debatable. You would certainly want the AC, but the DO could be exchanged with templock or buff cw.
For 10 man content you still want an AC and a DO. That said you also want a templock and buff cw. There is room for all.
The 4 support meta is still alive and well because the DO isn't the cause of the four support meta. We've been making that clear on here and in preview forums for a couple of years. The fix to the four support meta is diminishing returns on buffs and power. Nerfs to buffing abilities doesn't change that
#1 AC DC
#2 Devo OP
#3 DO DC
The OP with its powersharing and bane tends to be better than the DO for buffs.
Overall I think both GF and OP are fine for tanking.
As for the DC, I hate that the devs caved in to the players here about the DO TI changes. I rather it be a debuff thana buff. Yeah it is better now and not a lazy man buff but still it doesn't take much to apply the buff and that is still rather pathetic.
Mod 16 I believe the three classes that will get the biggest updates will be TR, GWF and GF. All other classes will have some additional updates and than we will have a new role that will replace one of the DPS roles for Q's. I'm guessing it will be called Controller/Bufffer or something along those lines.
I hope mod 16 the devs revert the TI back to what they originally planned if the DO builds become a true DPS build come mod 16. Than from there, I hope the CW gets some tweaks to feats to make the Renegade path a better buffer and Thaum better for DPS along with making MoF path for buffing and SS for DPS.
There is many things the devs can do but everything at this point is speculation.
I'm just glad they are making changes and wanting to expand roles in the game a bit more.
My biggest ask is come mod 16 that GF finally get a DPS build that does not require the special niche to achieve its top damage; this would go a long way to balancing out the game; especially if the devs remove anything that makes one class hits harder than other.
Why does GF need 3 roles when most other classes only have 1 (GWF & TR) or 2 (CW, SW, HR, DC, OP). Why don't we give them a healer competency as well?
GWF has one role and that is DPS and come mod 16 my gut tells me that GWF will be able to tank.
SW currently has one role today, DPS and again my gut tells me come mod 16 it will have healer as its secondary role.
As for DC we have one role today and that is healer and come mod 16 my gut is telling me that it it will have DPS added.
The DO changes the devs originally proposed were perfect IMO. The debuff and the damage buff of 25% just for the DO was fine, but to many players cried and the devs changed the debuff to a buff and raised the DO damage from 25% to 30% because the devs have no backbone.
I have a feeling the change for mod 15 was simply done to keep us the player base happy during the time between mod 15 and mod 16 where further changes will be implemented.
GF, GWF, HR, TR, CW, DC, SW, etc.. will all be further adjusted if a new overall role is added to the game and if existing in game roles are added to classes based on the paragon path selected.
I'm excited and can't to see what is in store come mod 16.
The DO proposed changes were far from perfect. DO cannot random queue as a secondary DPS. Therefore they are stuck competing with AC for random queues as an inferior second option. If they change the queue options to allow DO to queue as DPS then it would have been tolerable. Although they would still need to narrow the gap in dps potential between DO and GWF for DO to have a chance at primary dps (an issue that exists for multiple classes).
There are 5 roles available in the game. melee damage, ranged damage, single target damage, aoe damage, controller, buff/debuff, healer, and protector. However, the way the game is designed there is no differentiation between the damage dealer times in practice (especially with the effectiveness of lightning enchant), control has been removed from the game with the exception of some trash but the skill has little value in those scenarios, and healer is unnecessary because damage comes in two forms dots that can be overcome with lifesteal or burst which is one shot death and heals cannot save that. That really puts the roles down to protector, buff/debuff, and dps with each role being very crowded under the current system. While I can tell you seem optimistic in the introduction of another class, its hard to envision where it belongs unless it displaces other classes or unless the devs decide to broaden the game roles.
There are a lot of ways they couldn't broaden the game roles, but they would require significant investment from cryptic I'm skeptical of them committing.
Diminishing returns which I've mentioned before could help force people back into a wider role range because at some point if the dps is low enough, cc on trash becomes valuable as an example.
Modifying protectors and damage sources to encourage buffing of defensive abilities through synergies between leaders and protectors (example astral shield and foresight as a DR buff again).
Significant modification of lightning to open up the landscape for aoe focused builds for trash clearing.
Creating a queue system that provides buffs for people to take on certain roles and a wider scope of enforced rainbow party in random queues. ex. queueing as control would provide a buff to cc to make it use-able at the expense of personal dps.
Reduce lifesteal effectiveness in dungeons or convert it to more of a regen type function in dungeons so it improves incoming healing.
Those are just some examples but all require a larger vision for the game and so far for a very long time we haven't seen large visions for the game, we've seen quick fixes. It's almost like they are surprised each time the game generates enough revenue to warrant another module. But are afraid to commit resources in case this is their last module. And the cycle has repeated itself since module 3 with one noticeable exception of module 10 which appeared to be a big resource module but seemed to focus on zone creation and the voniblood system not on game mechanics.
In groups it's a bit stronger for the DO, but when soloing it's supposed to be roughly equal (I haven't done the actual math) The changes are to make DO more equal as secondary DPS. In other words you can't beat a DPS HR/SW/CW, but you're doing more damage then a buff HR / Templock / Oppressor debuff CW. Since the AC DC can take care of eBtS you can main DPS which in Mod 14 requires either some voodoo to empower eBtS and eDL and keep eBtS up most of the time or simply have 2 DCs in addition to yourself which already makes you not a buffer since those 2 DCs take care of all the buffing.
No idea, if you look at CW changes devs plans are to only have one viable spec and 2 paragons. The original DC changes before the adjustments were to only have one viable spec and paragon. I only see reduction of amount of specs. Right, although I'd like to see adjustments to Bane and Exaltation before further adjustment to buff magnitude or adding diminishing returns (or ninja nerfs like AoC)
As long as buffs like Bane and Exaltation (and the Orcus buff in T9 and sword in CR) exists a 2nd or 3rd DPS will always be at a significant disadvantage.
Oh yeah, most are probably playing preformed groups running the GF as a very niche DPS. Oh HAMSTER we have a DC with cleanse and now the GF is not as good. HAMSTER....
Replace the GF with a GWF, HR, CW, TR or SW and if the DC does cleanse no one will complain or cry, why you have cleanse. Those classes fall as a real DPS. GF DPS are niche build that require no cleanse DC in order to produce maximum damage. Hopefully mod 16 removes this BS of GF needing survivors wraps, no cleanse DC, etc... I want to see GF as real and viable DPS that are not dependent on a very niche build requiring other builds to be built around them. This would be a real DPS and until that is fixed, GF are niche and still bugged and is why they do so well as a DPS.
TBH this whole buff buff buff meta has gotten out of hand. That's all people care about now. People looking for 4 buffers for a GWF.... The devs don't see something wrong here?
Should OP be adjusted as well since they can be a tank, healer and buffer?
Should SW be adjusted as well since they can be a healer, DPS and buffer?
And since this thread is about DCs, should DCs be adjusted as well since they are now going to be a DPS, healer, and buffer?
As for tanking, healing and buffing: My thoughts on this is that tanks and healers buffs should be 1/4 of what they provide today. The majority of group buffs should come from another role that are not tanks or healers. And hopefully that happens in mod 16.
Back to GF. There are four driving factors impacting a GF damage that if any of this changes the GF damage will be greatly impacted.
1) SWW is bugged and provides 2x the actual buff
2) Survivor wraps are used to proc SWW to get the buff
3) KC is used to buff the damage further
4) Staggering Challenge is slotted to produce insane damage with Griffon's Wrath
A change to any of these four and GF damage takes a hit. SWW is harder to maintain without Survivor Wraps, KC damage buff accounts for the high damage of a GF on bosses, reduction there would really drive down their damage, etc...
I know how a GF works and simply wish the devs would allow them to be a real DPS without a nich build come mod 16, especially if they reduce the buffs provided by healers and tanks.
I find GF and OP run better together with GF as tank buffers, OP as a healer, with a DC as a secondary healer and than plug any two DPS into the group and content is not that bad.
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/dnd4/images/e/e3/399_CC_Cleric.pdf/revision/latest?cb=20130905161518
A DC is a Leader class As is clearly defined the role of leader is both to "inspire" buff and "heal". As such the class should be highly capably party buffers. As you can see here, DC damage is only moderate in and of itself. Which is true in this game. A DC can deal some decent damage but only after it has stacked buffs and debuffs in contrast to a GWF that can wreck some face right out of the gate. This is also why regardless of what party we are in, we shouldn't be capable of primary dps because everyone else in the party are receiving the same buffs/debuffs that benefit our own attacks (unless we are exhaulting ourselves). The role of a buffer and a healer fits the class as it should be in the game.
Now lets look at Guardian Fighter.
https://dandwiki.com/wiki/Guardian_(5e_Subclass)
That's right their focus is to defend not buff not dps. You could argue they can heal if you want to take on some healing roles.
You don't offer solutions to the games challenges you only ask to buff your classes in the way you want them to exist in the current game structure.
Nerfs to buffs are not required, and are a waste of time because they don't fix the 4 support 1 dps meta. The answer is clearly diminishing returns. Diminishing returns provide flexibility in team composition. Do you take a DC buffer or a CW buffer, if having both will surely be wasted by stepping over the line of usefulness (in buffing). Maybe the DC buffs 10% more but the SW deals more damage that would contribute equally to the overall party dps potential. Perhaps SW is better because of their heal potential + buff potential. These are the things we should be evaluating in team composition.
That's what would make the party dynamics more interesting in this game. Nerfing buffs and increasing DPS resolves none of the current complaints in the 4 support meta unless you nerf buffs to near uselessness and then supports won't be able to get into a party at all.
That's right their focus is to defend not buff not dps. You could argue they can heal if you want to take on some healing roles. We all hate change. I know that I dislike the MC changes for mod 15 but I will cope or simply move on. Same with any changes that the devs have made or plan to make to any classes.
I'm not asking for the GF or DC to be top DPS, healer or tank. I'm looking at the game bigger picture and that is to give players who play GF and DCs more options who don't run end game but are maybe setup more as a DPS. I know plenty of GF that would love to Q into content as a DPS and not a tank when running the expert Q; same with some of the DC's that play mainly as a DO.
I'm just stating that in the current build a GF is considered a tank by the game design of the Q system. I'm not asking for the GF to be top DPS, I'm asking for the devs to consider allowing GF to Q into content as a DPS. Modify how the GF produce their damage so that it is not niche build requiring all the right timing of buff, etc... to produce top damage. Making it GF more viable as a DPS to more players.
I'm asking for the same for DCs, CWs, SWs, etc.. all classes should be able to play 2 roles in this game to provide more flexibility than what we have today.
This game was designed around 4e and anything new is to be around 5e. I have no idea what the rules are and how it impacts each of the current classes in this game, though there has to be some wiggle room as we are not playing D&D pen and paper here or DDO. This is NWO and is a bit different and that may give some wiggle room to Cryptic on how they build out the classes in this game.
If you want the game to stay as is, it is actually a way to keep some players away from the game. I started a GWF to find out it was only a DPS but it is a defender class so I should be able to play it as a tank. The SW is a leader for healing/buffing but when Q I can only be a DPS. Adding a second role to each class would be a good move and given what the devs have stated already that is more than likely going to happen in mod 16. What additional role they give classes and will there be a new role is all speculation at this point, and I realize that.
Just like my comments about the GF and the changes I would like to see, again those are my thoughts on the GF. How the Devs move forward maybe completely different and I'm fine with that. The biggest thing I want to see is this game expanding and giving us as players more options and not less and adding a DPS to GF is giving us more options.
As for buffing, if a new role, Buffer, is added the Healers and Tank roles may be impacted by a new role being added. My guess is that the tanking and healing roles would be doing less buffing. Add to this a buff cap and it aligns up better with making room for 2 DPS vs. 1 DPS in content if a buffer role is added to the Q system, especially if a Tank, healer and buffer are able to reach the buff and debuff caps without a 4th support player.
Like everything else with this game at this point it is wait and see.
Templock should be able to q as a healer; however, since there are 3 spots for dps and only 1 for healer, they are not actually hurt with the system as is (unless your just talking about the role bonus).
They don't need to add more roles per class, they need to make the class have multiple viable ways to live within its role system. In order to do that they need cc to have meaning in pve again, which opens up a second (or third play style) for tr, cw, and hr. They need ranged vs melee dps to differentiate and be meaningful, which would open up archer, sw, and cw dps builds. They need diminishing returns on power, which would create some duplication or potential overstacking when running AC power buffer and power share OP in same party. They need diminishing return on buffs which would create potential overstacking in the 4 support meta. And then they have to rebalance existing dungeons to align the difficulty to the reduced party dps potential.
That last part I fear is the thing that scares them off the most. Because reworking dungeon balance seems to be a lot more difficult than you'd think.
As for the dungeons being balanced around 1 DPS and 4 support, not true. Ran CR just fine with a TR, GWF, and HR dps with me on my DC and a GF Tac and we did it in around 45 minutes with no wipes, no additional buffing beyond me or the GF and that is the hardest dungeon.
I than did CoDG and ran 6 DPS run without any buffs beyond 2 DCs and 1 OP Protection and a GF. It took 16 minutes to beat it but again no problem.
The so called need for 4 buffers for 5 man and 8 for 10 man is simply due to players wanting to burn through content. I played plenty of content with just 1 tank, 1 healer and 3 DPS and similar setup for 10 man; no need for more buffing.
Now if the devs added a buffing role it would be helpful for those that random Q without preformed groups that want to complete content in reasonable time and I see no issues with that. I also see no issues with the devs expanding all classes and giving each class two roles.