PC: New to level 70, question on Cleric expectations in Dungeons

kydus22

Hello,

I recently hit level 70 on my cleric and have some questions for the cleric and dungeons.

It seems Divine Oracle is the path I should take, and I've read some guides on feat/power selection. So far so good.

My big question is what will the expectations be when I start doing expert dungeons. All the end game builds really don't put much importance on healing, but it seems I will be expected and needed to heal in the earlier dungeons.

And with that said, should I create a load out with more of a healing/buffing (secondary) (not so much dps) for the first dungeons?

I've done the Barovia starter quests for the Vistani reward box, I'm approaching 7k iLvL for the first dungeon so I'm getting close, I was going to overshoot the iLvl required by a 1k or 2k before doing my first dungeon.

Any help on what I should expect and whether I should have a healing/dps loadout (and good healing powers to have on my bar etc) info would be most welcome.

Thanks much for any help and tips you might have.

K.

pitshade

Loadout 1 should be DO Righteous for doing your campaigns. Loadout 2 should be AC Righteous for group content. There isn't a lot of need for dedicated healing, DC excels at mitigating damage. With the proper use of powers, the healing comes after that.

Work on getting Recovery and AP gain to improve the uptime of Anointed Army. That will be your primary buff power later on, but it also provides mitigation and control immunity. For encounters start with Astral Shield, Divine Glow and Break the Spirit. Yhe latter two powers will almost never leave your bar but Astal Shield will get changed out depending on the circumstances. For At Wills, use Blessing of Battle and Astral Seal. That gives you a good mix of mitigation and healing and also retains your main buffing powers.

Swap Astral Shield out for Bastion of Health or Healing Word if people need more heals, especially if the fight is mobile. If you f8nd that neither heals nor mitigation are needes, use Exaltation and hit the top damage dealer with it.

I would not bother making a support DO as that isn't going to be viable in Mod 15.

As for what to expect, if you aren't running with people guiding you, look up videos of the dungeon before you queue. Get a grasp of the mechanics beforehand.

Try and place Astral Shield under the tank, hit a few mobs and/or the boss with Astral Seal. Don't blame yourself for dps getting themselves killed. You cant heal stupid.

kydus22

Thanks much the Info!

Couple other questions, I do enjoy DC , I am a big fan of the divine power/empower mechanic (or whatever it is called) but another thing that drew me to the class was desirability.

So it seems with Mod15, down to one DC per group which probably isn't a bad thing. But that means a whole lot of DCs with no where to go, so pondering if I should think of another class before I invest time in gearing up.

I have a warlock that I enjoy that is also lvl 70, and I do like the templock variant. I also enjoy the HR but wasn't sure if getting a group as dps was pretty challenging end game.

Do you have any thoughts on this with Mod 15 in mind? If I had to rate my preferences I like DC first , love having lots of buttons to push, I also enjoy warlock, but it seems to be more of a use your at wills and occassionally use encounter powers as they come off cooldown.

Thanks again for taking time to respond.

K.

pitshade

There will still be a demand for clerics. A not insignificant number of people started playing DO because they could get into higher tier content without having to invest as much time in the class. While some of these people may found that they enjoy the class and want to stick with it, many will return to playing their other characters more.

As far as having a second character, both SW and HR are IMO, fun to play and additionally can act in a variety of roles in a group. Hopefully, the difficulty of getting a group as DPS will lessen and the support powers that both classes have help even more.

andyy22

kydus22 said:

Hello,
I'm approaching 7k iLvL for the first dungeon so I'm getting close

Keep in mind that any group that is "looking for a DC AC" actually means looking for a AC power buff bot, that can share 40-100k power. This means you will need to invest heavily in power and at the same time still want to reach 18k recovery, so you are looking at a 5-20mil AD investment. Than the play-style itself is very demanding and gets crazy if a group "demands" that you cast Exaltation on the main DPS, while juggling all the other stuff as well.

So yes if you can build such a AC, you will have no problems finding groups, yet no one really wants a DC AC with 30k power.

In your none meta random group or random queue a jack of all trades DO is still a solid support class. You can skill for crit/dps + recovery, which means you deal decent damage, buff, debuff and heal all in the same package.

pitshade

In m15, an AC with 30k power will still be more desirable than a DO. Unless you can build an endgame viable DPS DO, AC is the only worthwhile path.

andyy22

pitshade said:

In m15, an AC with 30k power will still be more desirable than a DO. Unless you can build an endgame viable DPS DO, AC is the only worthwhile path.

Which is more a fact based on how a AC is perceived, rather than real world performance.
I'm also a returning player and yes i was "crazy" enough to try build a AC. I ended up with 30k power and 10k recovery, which meant i could hardly keep up AA, let alone HG, while emp BtS was also not up 100%. This alone is less than a DO with just HG + TI + 100% Bts.

I think 50k power and 15k recovery is the sweat spot you can start playing as AC buff bot.

PS: I can only advice to take tips from veteran players with a grain of salt, they tend to heavily underestimate how a low geared toon plays. They often assume max stronghold buffs and R11+ bondings, with R10 in every other slot.

pitshade

20k power is the threshold for an AC to.beat the 10% buff of the gutted TI. That is easily achievable. As I said in my earlier post, a DC should focus on Revovery - additionally, acquire a 15% Quick Action mount which helps a lot.

And as lower geared groups go, focusing on the buff value is frequently a mistake, even on live. The mitigation from AA outweighs damage buffs for low IL groups. This is where most advice fails. DC solely seen as a damage boost only works at higher ILs and with experienced groups.

andyy22

pitshade said:

20k power is the threshold for an AC to.beat the 10% buff of the gutted TI.

Can you please elaborate, i still try to figure out the math stuff myself, but here is what i calculated. So we only compare TI vs WoL + Battle Fervor at 20k power, while assuming DPS players have also at least 20k power.

20k * 25% = 5k shared power added, which is a 8.4% DPS increase, how does this beat a 10% DPS buff?
Is 20k to high for your average DPS?

We could also assume the DO has WoL and 15k power, which looks like this:
15k * 10% = 1500 = 2.5% + 10% TI = 12.5%

The AC needs 30k+ to beat the 12.5%, which still ignores the 1-3% DPS increase the DO might get from the personal DPS TI buff.


PS: Do i miss something?

pitshade

Sharpedge did the math for that. Since that is the same source as where the 50k number came from (it's actually 53 or 55) the 20k is as relevant as the 50k. At any rate, those numbers are all based on bondings of high level since that whole discussion is focused on endgame groups.

Honestly, I don't think it even matters at the IL being discussed here. My advice is to focus on keeping the other stuff up, because I do PUG a lot and know how lower geared players are. Keeping the party from wiping is worth more than increasing their damage.

If you are running with parties that don't benefit from the extra mitigation and healing, run what you think best. That doesn't seem to be the case for fresh level 70s as the OP os asking about.

andyy22

pitshade said:

Honestly, I don't think it even matters at the IL being discussed here.

Yeah i agree, so the OP should try AC and DO and see how each feels, before investing too heavy. The problem is AC needs different gear than a dps/mixed DO. I wasted a lot of AD, just to come to the conclusion that my playstyle is not very AC friendly. Ofc it was my own fault trying to build a meta/endgame AC with a 1m AD budget.

pitshade

If you have a 15%Quick Action mount, AC is a lot easier, especially once you can get the salvage boxes from mod 14. The important thing that is easy to forget is that you need the uptime on AA before you worry about power. There are some affordable options to help out, but ultimately if you don't like the playstyle it doesn't matter. If people follow through with expecting double dailies, it will be even worse.

andyy22

Update: i just found this good guide: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1F3mCbLskTjFCtMOYnVb-AYLncw9VeDUpGATOZ8IPvPY

What i was missing is the rather complicated and "strange" companion + bonding, double dipping powershare "snapshot" mechanic. There are a few examples given in the guide and after reflecting on this, its now clear to me how a 50k AC can share up to 160k power. I wasn't aware of this rather important interaction, between bondings, time of bonding proc aka "snapshot" and directly shared power.
So even without considering AA the 25% alone double dips to 25% + 58% = 41.5k extra power at 50k AC base power. If you properly time this as the guide notes, this balloons to 120k+ power.

While those are R14 numbers, with legendary companions, even with R8/9 this can balloon rather quickly and as you suggested leaves DO/TI in the dust. The only redeeming factor is that at least the 33% from AA is highly dependent on when the bondings proc, so its not a foolproof buff. On the other hand even the double dipping 25% passive power share part outperforms TI.

adinosii

pitshade said:

In m15, an AC with 30k power will still be more desirable than a DO. Unless you can build an endgame viable DPS DO, AC is the only worthwhile path.

As much as I am unhappy with this, I have to agree - for "endgame" stuff, groups are only going to want an AC DC. My 18K DO DC, with around 3000 hours of playtime is my favourite, and in m15, I have to consider her "sub-optimal".

DCs got a boost for solo play (but they didn't really need that), and a DO DC would actually be decent in a "secondary DPS + buff/debuff" role - but the problem is that there is no remand for such a role.

Most "end-game" groups are focused on a single Primary DPS and 4 buff/support characters, and I do not see that changing in the near future

namelesshero347

pitshade said:

In m15, an AC with 30k power will still be more desirable than a DO. Unless you can build an endgame viable DPS DO, AC is the only worthwhile path.

Haha. That's good news for me. I main a DO, but since I started doing ToNG in REQ, I made an AC build for ToNG and koz/tyrant. I'm lazy so I kept my recovery gear and called it a day. I have like 30K power and 20K recovery. While I don't give eye popping power transfer, I think the group don't mind seeing the bubbles the entire fight, and getting a shot of hastening light every 5-10 seconds.

kydus22

Interesting discussion and given the above conversation I think I need some clarification.

I'm not going to be doing End Game content any time soon, I think I'm getting up to around 9kIlvl at the moment.

From what I read above, I shouldn't worry about being the uber AC buff bot as I won't have the gear nor be grouping with really good/geared players.

So that said, short term, I should still prefer the AC build? Now that I've unlocked quite a few of the dungeons I should focus on buff, healing, dpsing when I can but parties will not be optimal so I need to keep folks alive?

In terms of stats I should focus on recovery and power?

I thought I would wait till I out gear a dungeon requirement by 1500 to 2000 before I do them as I'm guessing that should make things less painful for everyone.

Any other tidbits you veterans can give are most welcome!

K.

namelesshero347

When I was a new DC, I went DO because I was not using bonding at that time. My priority was keeping tank alive by debuffing (astral shield around tank, spam BtS on boss, etc). Damage not taken is damage that doesn't have to be healed. When I do heal, it was for the tank. I tell the rest of the group if they wanted healing they should go near the tank. In most boss fights, when the tank goes down, the fight is over.

For AC it is power > recovery because your primary means to buff is power transfer
For DC it is recovery > power so you can spam your debuffing encounters more

If you are not running a bonding companion setup, I suggest you go DO,

pitshade

For keeping parties alive, AC is better than DO. You need to build Recovery first, along with AP gain and if possible a Quick Action mount (Fancy Gorgon, Embellished Apparatus, etc...)

Currently, at low to mid ILs, DO is better than AC at buffing damage. That will change in mod 15. DO would still be better at buffing when at low ILs, but generally those parties need mitigation and heals more anyway.

Also, AC isn't dependent on having bondings for powershare. The DPS need bondings but the AC just needs to be able to maintain AA uptime. Bondings are good for this but not required and they don't affect powershare at all.

namelesshero347

pitshade said:

You need to build Recovery first, along with AP gain and if possible a Quick Action mount (Fancy Gorgon, Embellished Apparatus, etc...)

pitshade said:

The DPS need bondings but the AC just needs to be able to maintain AA uptime. Bondings are good for this but not required and they don't affect powershare at all.

This is how I set up my AC. I have recovery on the character and power/crit on the pet. This way if I lose the pet in the final ToNG boss fight, I can still maintain perma-AA, double-daily, and hastening light.

But good number of the high-end AC toons I inspect have high power and low recovery. Which probably means they have the power on the character and recovery on the pet.

Quick Action is good, but you have to decide between that and 2K recovery or power.

micky1p00

namelesshero347 said:

pitshade said:

You need to build Recovery first, along with AP gain and if possible a Quick Action mount (Fancy Gorgon, Embellished Apparatus, etc...)

pitshade said:

The DPS need bondings but the AC just needs to be able to maintain AA uptime. Bondings are good for this but not required and they don't affect powershare at all.

This is how I set up my AC. I have recovery on the character and power/crit on the pet. This way if I lose the pet in the final ToNG boss fight, I can still maintain perma-AA, double-daily, and hastening light.

But good number of the high-end AC toons I inspect have high power and low recovery. Which probably means they have the power on the character and recovery on the pet.

Quick Action is good, but you have to decide between that and 2K recovery or power.

Sorry but this is one of those times that I can't tell, is it sarcasm or serious?

gromovnipljesak

namelesshero347 said:

pitshade said:

You need to build Recovery first, along with AP gain and if possible a Quick Action mount (Fancy Gorgon, Embellished Apparatus, etc...)

pitshade said:

The DPS need bondings but the AC just needs to be able to maintain AA uptime. Bondings are good for this but not required and they don't affect powershare at all.

This is how I set up my AC. I have recovery on the character and power/crit on the pet. This way if I lose the pet in the final ToNG boss fight, I can still maintain perma-AA, double-daily, and hastening light.

But good number of the high-end AC toons I inspect have high power and low recovery. Which probably means they have the power on the character and recovery on the pet.

Quick Action is good, but you have to decide between that and 2K recovery or power.

...you do know that to make AA useful, you need high base power? Hence why every ACDC is trying to get to that magical 67k base power figure for the endgame?

namelesshero347

micky1p00 said:

Sorry but this is one of those times that I can't tell, is it sarcasm or serious?

I am serious. I primarily play DO and I don't do 2xDC pre-made groups except once-a-week CoDG when some kind (or desperate for DC) soul accepts a 13/14K DC. I never even went into ToNG until REQ. I made an AC build just for ToNG. I used the same, mostly recovery, gear to make a haste AA spam-bot. Works pretty well in single-DC PUG ToNG. I only fail when I got incompetent tank or low DPS. I have a complete set of crown gear now

I find that I lose my pet quite often at the last ToNG boss, so I put the recovery on the character and left the power/crit on the pet for personal dps.

namelesshero347

gromovnipljesak#8234 said:

...you do know that to make AA useful, you need high base power? Hence why every ACDC is trying to get to that magical 67k base power figure for the endgame?

If by "useful" you mean power share, sure, I agree. But I just want to give perma CC immunity in ToNG. I may not give great power buff, but I keep them from getting paralyzed. A dazed dps does zero dps.