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10/18/18 Patch Notes: Invisible Infiltrator + Bloodbath Bugfix

trgluestickztrgluestickz Posts: 704Member Arc User
edited October 2018 in PvP Discussion
The patch notes for tomorrow on the live server contain a nerf/bugfix to Invisible Infiltrator + Bloodbath double procs. Here are those patch notes:

https://www.arcgames.com/en/games/neverwinter/news/detail/11010093-patch-notes:-version:-nw.100.20180709g.28

What isn't clear yet is whether or not tomorrow's patch will also fix the same issue for the infiltrator's action and razor action passives. Both of these passives are subject to the same bug that is about to be fixed for invisible infiltrator.

If after tomorrow's testing, this bug turns out to still apply to infiltrator's action and razor action, I'd like to request the aid of TRs and TR haters alike in asking for the devs to fix this bug for the other 2 passives.

For anyone who doesn't understand the bug I am taking about or why they should support its removal, here is more information:


In short, using bloodbath causes infiltrator's action, invisible infiltrator, and razor action to give your their buff X2 instead of X1. Each successive BB you do before these passives wear off adds another X2 of their damage buffs. So you get X4, X6, and momentarily can get X8 of these passive's damage bonuses. This on live right now, is the main source of BB's crazy damage and also buffs your other attacks by a large amount.

Back in the day, this bug used to be beneficial in that it gave bloodbath just enough damage to make bloodbath worth using in PVP. Bloodbath was neither too strong nor too weak back then and there was even speculation from multiple TRs that the devs may have left this bug in intentionally. However, this bug became an issue within the last few modules when more stat powercreep was added to the game on top of it and made bloodbath stronger than intended/needed. While Bloodbath will receive a nerf in module 15, this bug probably isn't safe to leave in since it will be combined with the feat upgrades TRs will receive in module 15 and also affects the damage of TR encounters and at wills, not just dailies.

As for the upcoming recovery nerf a dev dropped spoilers about a while ago, that doesn't appear to be going live with module 15. This means that any passives that still carry this bug can still be stacked 4+ times during module 15. TRs don't need these bugs anymore and haven't for a while now so lets go ahead and get rid of them. That, and getting rid of these bugs should make followup class balance attempts, such as the ones likely to occur in module 16, easier for the devs to carry out and more likely to turn out well.

As for PVE, bloodbath as it currently stands isn't part of any good PVE builds anyway so fixing this bug won't affect them.
Post edited by trgluestickz on
--
PVP Rogue,
--[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
----------------------------------------------------------------
Full Gaming Name: Gluestickz The Gap Closer
Main Character: MarigoldsTheShredder (TR, MI, Scou)
Guild: She Looked LVL 18
Alliance: Vermilion
PC Player

Comments

  • veywiil#8685 veywiil Posts: 208Member Arc User
    Hasn't TR suffered enough nerfs?
    I'm a theorycrafter, that means I can answer fairly deep questions with scientific theory, mathematical proof, and some guessing. Ask me stuff!
  • marnivalmarnival Posts: 1,432Member Arc User

    Hasn't TR suffered enough nerfs?

    Nerf - bug fixing is not the same thing even if the result might seem so...

    and to answer your question in pvp not even by miles - in pve we will see this is a pvp forum though.
  • ashbury#6333 ashbury Posts: 23Member Arc User
    Yes! Way to go devs!
  • aixis2000aixis2000 Posts: 132Member Arc User
    edited October 2018
    ...the fix changed not only the dmg it also changed stealth time...I came from stealth - BB and in the end of BB I still had a full stealth bar cause also the last hit triggered stealth..now with the fix u get only the initial stealth from invisible infiltrator what means due the long attacks ur stealth runs out - wai ? - BB is more related to LA (Lurkers Assault - the daily is based over time) then to the rest - CB,SE and WoB are only 1 hit dailys..

    Its a fix and a nerf the more I think about it cause both LA and BB are set on a time frame and minewhile ur not free in ur action (sure u can use LA to run away also but its meant to do alot more dmg) - CB,SE,WoB after u landed it u can drink a Coffee, go shopping, run away or place a smoke bomb...whatever u like...and on all 4 stealth runs out after u did it not meanwhile...so its also a nerf to BB

    I tested it again and now it seems invisible infiltrator doesnt proc on BB anymore...on all other dailys it does but not on BB
    Post edited by aixis2000 on
  • trgluestickztrgluestickz Posts: 704Member Arc User
    edited October 2018
    Update:

    I just tested the bugfix attempt on live. The fix appears to have gone wrong, now invisible infiltrator doesn't proc period when you use bloodbath. When you use bloodbath, your stealth bar no longer refills and the invisible infiltrator buff bar icon is completely absent.

    This is only the case for bloodbath, the other dailies still trigger invisible infiltrator as normal.

    Also, as I suspected would be the case, infiltrator's action wasn't included in this bugfix. Infiltrator's action still gives you 2 stacks for every 1 bloodbath you use. If any devs see this post, please fix this bug for both of these passives.

    Also, take a look at the WK passives while you are at it, I don't think the WK passive bug works exactly the same as the MI passive bug since their passives don't have buff icons and razor action has different mechanics than the MI passives. A couple WKs did report a while back that razor action also has a buggy interaction with bloodbath that gives them more damage than intended, not sure if any of their other passives are affected.
    Post edited by trgluestickz on
    --
    PVP Rogue,
    --[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
    ----------------------------------------------------------------
    Full Gaming Name: Gluestickz The Gap Closer
    Main Character: MarigoldsTheShredder (TR, MI, Scou)
    Guild: She Looked LVL 18
    Alliance: Vermilion
    PC Player
  • ug2bkug2bk Posts: 59Member Arc User
    Amen to that.

    1) imho, *if* we are still want balance to exist, there shall be basic rules for that.
    One of those - nothing shall stacks, unless it explicitly say so.
    Which is why, infiltrator's action and razor action should be considered as well.

    2) Speaking of razor action - nor just x2-x4-x8 damage bonus, but also damage amount. Right now, it's x3 of its normal value, only in case of blood bath.

    P.s Veiwiil - imo, nerf = something worked as it meant to be, and damage/effect was reduced.
    Fix = something worked *definitely* not as intended, and it was brought to normal.
    I'm not saying that this fix should not be taken into account, when we still discuss TR changes.
  • aixis2000aixis2000 Posts: 132Member Arc User
    edited October 2018
    ...right nothing should stack within pvp but in this case its a fix & a ninja nerf or even a new bug ? Invisible infiltrator grants to fill up stealth bar after u did a daily which it doesnt do anymore with BB....

    As it would have been in the patch notes that it doesnt grant stealth anymore I wouldnt say anything but I really hate ninja nerfs
  • crollaxcrollax Posts: 247Member Arc User
    these changes are ez , tr need more nerf , i do still 100k BB thick
  • icexnineicexnine Posts: 66Member Arc User
    edited October 2018
    It would be nice if we could get more bugfixes and class balance changes in small, but frequent updates like this one. Instead, we are used to having bugged powers/items and unbalanced powers/feats left the way they are for months/years, without any attempts at fixing/rebalancing or even acknowledgement from the ones who run things. Even if the changes aren't perfect, it would at a minimum keep things interesting instead of the same old, stale, mindless-tr dominant pvp we've had for ages now.

    Wonder if consoles will get this patch come Tuesday, or we'll have to wait. I'd like to see how the stealth aspect of this change affects the survivability of the mediocrely geared trs. Hard to believe it'll do too much for the >30k recovery ones though.
  • frozenfirevrfrozenfirevr Posts: 1,247Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 Playtest Community Moderator

    Update:

    I just tested the bugfix attempt on live. The fix appears to have gone wrong, now invisible infiltrator doesn't proc period when you use bloodbath. When you use bloodbath, your stealth bar no longer refills and the invisible infiltrator buff bar icon is completely absent.

    This is only the case for bloodbath, the other dailies still trigger invisible infiltrator as normal.

    Also, as I suspected would be the case, infiltrator's action wasn't included in this bugfix. Infiltrator's action still gives you 2 stacks for every 1 bloodbath you use. If any devs see this post, please fix this bug for both of these passives.

    Also, take a look at the WK passives while you are at it, I don't think the WK passive bug works exactly the same as the MI passive bug since their passives don't have buff icons and razor action has different mechanics than the MI passives. A couple WKs did report a while back that razor action also has a buggy interaction with bloodbath that gives them more damage than intended, not sure if any of their other passives are affected.

    I shall forward this issue. Thanks.
    FrozenFire
  • quickfoot#7851 quickfoot Posts: 86Member Arc User
    LoL, sorry, but I had to laugh.

    It makes me sad when the devs "fix" something, and then the "fix" is broke. If they don't already have a proper testing framework in place, they really need to get one set up to test powers, feats, boons, etc in a controlled manner before release. Once in place, it should be relatively simple to test that a feat or power is providing the proper damage bonus (for example) and to test various interactions before release.

    JS.

    @ devs
    Thanks though for finally giving this bug some attention.
  • trgluestickztrgluestickz Posts: 704Member Arc User
    edited October 2018

    recovery nerf?
    Do you know anything about that?

    The below quoted dev post is all that I know about it so far. We still don't know exactly what the devs plan on doing but this most likely will be a nerf of some kind to lifesteal and recovery in PVP. They could introduce harsher diminishing returns to some or maybe even all stats, change how many stat points you need to get 1% in PVP, rework the way the stats themselves work, or some other large change.
    scarabman said:

    We've talked about adding more maps to PvP and we'd love to do it. However, we recognize there have been issues with PvP balance and we have decided to put our PvP focus on that problem, first. We've been working toward that goal over the last couple of expansions by hitting some of the largest problems faced in PvP and there are more changes in the pipeline that will come in M15.

    The biggest hurdle to overcome is the out-of-control numbers that some of the stats have right now (e.g. recovery, lifesteal). We're actively working on a long term solution for those problems but it's a huge undertaking.

    What kinds of new things would you most be interested in seeing? Personally, I'd like to see a 3v3 deathmatch option and a PvP boons rework.

    --
    PVP Rogue,
    --[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
    ----------------------------------------------------------------
    Full Gaming Name: Gluestickz The Gap Closer
    Main Character: MarigoldsTheShredder (TR, MI, Scou)
    Guild: She Looked LVL 18
    Alliance: Vermilion
    PC Player
  • crollaxcrollax Posts: 247Member Arc User
    edited October 2018
    since mod 2 , i have seen maybe 10 time general class balance:D:D , sure they will

    The patch notes for tomorrow on the live server contain a nerf/bugfix to Invisible Infiltrator + Bloodbath double procs. Here are those patch notes:

    https://www.arcgames.com/en/games/neverwinter/news/detail/11010093-patch-notes:-version:-nw.100.20180709g.28

    What isn't clear yet is whether or not tomorrow's patch will also fix the same issue for the infiltrator's action and razor action passives. Both of these passives are subject to the same bug that is about to be fixed for invisible infiltrator.

    If after tomorrow's testing, this bug turns out to still apply to infiltrator's action and razor action, I'd like to request the aid of TRs and TR haters alike in asking for the devs to fix this bug for the other 2 passives.

    For anyone who doesn't understand the bug I am taking about or why they should support its removal, here is more information:


    In short, using bloodbath causes infiltrator's action, invisible infiltrator, and razor action to give your their buff X2 instead of X1. Each successive BB you do before these passives wear off adds another X2 of their damage buffs. So you get X4, X6, and momentarily can get X8 of these passive's damage bonuses. This on live right now, is the main source of BB's crazy damage and also buffs your other attacks by a large amount.

    Back in the day, this bug used to be beneficial in that it gave bloodbath just enough damage to make bloodbath worth using in PVP. Bloodbath was neither too strong nor too weak back then and there was even speculation from multiple TRs that the devs may have left this bug in intentionally. However, this bug became an issue within the last few modules when more stat powercreep was added to the game on top of it and made bloodbath stronger than intended/needed. While Bloodbath will receive a nerf in module 15, this bug probably isn't safe to leave in since it will be combined with the feat upgrades TRs will receive in module 15 and also affects the damage of TR encounters and at wills, not just dailies.

    As for the upcoming recovery nerf a dev dropped spoilers about a while ago, that doesn't appear to be going live with module 15. This means that any passives that still carry this bug can still be stacked 4+ times during module 15. TRs don't need these bugs anymore and haven't for a while now so lets go ahead and get rid of them. That, and getting rid of these bugs should make followup class balance attempts, such as the ones likely to occur in module 16, easier for the devs to carry out and more likely to turn out well.

    As for PVE, bloodbath as it currently stands isn't part of any good PVE builds anyway so fixing this bug won't affect them.

    invis doesnt work on bb by purpose not broken , they wanna see how effective this change on trs nuke
    +
    i have read min 5 time general class balance since m2, this time balance this time balance;D:D :D:D actually i dont whine , idgaf seriously i can play my tr any state
  • trgluestickztrgluestickz Posts: 704Member Arc User
    *Update*

    The official module 15 patch notes included a last minute bugfix. Infiltrator's action will now get the same bugfix that invisible infiltrator did:

    "Invisible Infiltrator: No longer double-procs from using Bloodbath
    Infiltrator's Action: No longer double-procs from using Bloodbath"
    --
    PVP Rogue,
    --[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
    ----------------------------------------------------------------
    Full Gaming Name: Gluestickz The Gap Closer
    Main Character: MarigoldsTheShredder (TR, MI, Scou)
    Guild: She Looked LVL 18
    Alliance: Vermilion
    PC Player
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