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So you killed off DoTs for AoC... you have plans for the side effects?
lukejones77
Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 282 Arc User
I'm guessing that you're trying to to bring GFs back to a tank-like status, and to make them more pally-competitive with an Aura of Courage nerf, where it no longer procs DoTs?
Thing is, your anointed DPS class (the one with the top DPS, the toughness/survivability, the control immunity, and for whom you made the new prominence enchant), won't really be affected.
Looks like your change will just drive a wide gap even wider, and encourage the dominant meta sea of yellow, blue and red for new content runs that has been the pattern since mod 12.
For many of us with struggling DPS, Balanced started the last chance to find some end-game enjoyment in this game before he left, and the side effect of this change just undoes that and makes it worse.
DEVs, have you thought about the struggling DPS classes you're nerfing with this, and do you have some kind of compensatory adjustment in mind?
I ask, since this is a high impact change to struggling DPS, and you didn't disclose it in the patch notes, or tell the pallies you were doing it.
Just feels like you're moving away from the high transparency you started off with.
Thing is, your anointed DPS class (the one with the top DPS, the toughness/survivability, the control immunity, and for whom you made the new prominence enchant), won't really be affected.
Looks like your change will just drive a wide gap even wider, and encourage the dominant meta sea of yellow, blue and red for new content runs that has been the pattern since mod 12.
For many of us with struggling DPS, Balanced started the last chance to find some end-game enjoyment in this game before he left, and the side effect of this change just undoes that and makes it worse.
DEVs, have you thought about the struggling DPS classes you're nerfing with this, and do you have some kind of compensatory adjustment in mind?
I ask, since this is a high impact change to struggling DPS, and you didn't disclose it in the patch notes, or tell the pallies you were doing it.
Just feels like you're moving away from the high transparency you started off with.
Post edited by lukejones77 on
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AoC is an easy target because it's visible as a separate entity in ACT logs. Other (and frankly, larger) contributors to party dps (buffs, debuffs, power share) do not show up as separate entities and instead just make all numbers bigger, and don't show up as separate color slices on the pie chart. AoC is not dramatically imbalanced, it's just more visible.
I don't really want to get into a silly argument, so I'll just leave it at that.
Noting again, this does not interfere with how much it helps the party, just the way it does and the effects it causes, because it renders defense options more worthless than they already are.
Obviously you'd reduce the percentage if it worked as written because pallies have more HP than most, but in general the balancing has tried to deal with powers that go into every build pretty much without alternative, but this one has stayed immune till now. It's influencing almost every DPS build in the game and this has to be wrong, nerfing it and/or changing how it works would allow a lot more build diversity which seems to be Cryptic's aim.
There's also not a lot of room for single buffs that make a bigger contribution as the guy that tested it when I asked was getting 30% of his damage from it WITHOUT the boon which would have added a significant amount more.
What's the sense in that? And why do it ninja-style, where there's previously been open talk and proper disclosure in patch notes?
Feels a lot like Balanced started something fair and appropriate, but now he's gone, and something else is at work.
I'd like to think it's some kind of mistake, but it sure smells bad.
AoC is generally the top source of damage for CWs, and definitely in the top 3 of sources.
It's so significant that a CW will readily swap from the life saving LifeSteal boon to the AoC enhancing health boon, in the struggle not to be too easily recognized as the worst of DPS classes.
CW has struggled to be relevant since mod 12, and is a class that relies on DoTs. GWFs, for example, do very nicely from AoC, but without relying to DoTs. You drive an even wider gap between CW and others - making a change like that.
What do you mean "by what means is CW struggling in M15?"
M15 hasn't landed yet. Nothing is yet proven, or set in stone.
It seems to start of in a promising manner, and then you start finding ninja nerfs to classes that rely on DoTs for the big damage sources like AoC.
And Noworries said that the things won't change much from what they're currently at. So it's pretty damn close to "set in stone".
So ya. No. Even with the AoC nerf for CWs, it doesn't matter - they've been more than made up for in other ways.
The bigger whale is that the devs simply made GWF the only TRUE dps in the game. Sad really that the devs did this without removing their ability to multi-proc AoC and adjust them so that this class does not do crazy self buffing that gets amplified when you add other buffers to dungeon runs.
The best way to resolve the GWF self buffing capability is by raising base damage and remove self buffing from abilities. This would level out the playing field a bit more. Also any ability that provides a buff should be set to buff the group vs. the individual player. Battle Fury should buff the group equally, similar to ITF.
CW's are among the best players on the server due to how much they had to learn in order to play validly and they manage to do many amazing feats with a broken class. However, you are wrong to assume that this means that CW's are in a good spot. CODGs won't see CW's as top DPS. CWs are forced to play as debuffs in nearly 95% of all epic dungeon runs, going as MoF Opp or Rene.
Stop spreading lies how CW's are in a good spot which rivals that of a GWF. That's not the case and won't be the case once CW's hitting powers can't multiproc, thus rendering some options useless to use. THe bare minimum you can realize is how Lightning Weapon changes affected CW's damage to the point of being useless to any other class bar GWF, which is the only class that can still successfully utilize it's powers due to at-will attack speed.
If you place a CW w Fey and GWF w Prom shoulder to shoulder, GWF Prom wins with knives + left click.
CW would really have to carefully plan everything ahead and evaluate each spell and damage individually, caring for both chill stacks as well as arcane stacks.
GWF can easily outrun CW, getting to the enemies faster.
GWF easily hits faster and stronger than a CW due to higher damage output and buffs.
If by some case CW does beat GWF, that's purely by hitting something when all (de)buffs are applied. Maybe someone missed a button or didn't have all buffs applied beforehand. But in their optimal status, GWF wins by a long margin as the class is outperforming on all accounts and this will be seen in MOD15 especially. YOu needn't tests to even see this enormous disparity among the classes who are both defined as DPS by the machine.
I want you to play a CW for some time. Do that. Ta.
Unpack what you mean by top tier CWs might even equal GWFs in mod 15. If you mean a fully skilled 18K CW might be able to equal a poorly skilled (recent convert) 15K GWF - then yeah.
Is a top tier CW with all the skills going to be a reasonable comparison to a top tier GWF with all the skills? Not in a month of Sundays, and you fully know it.
You know full-well that skill for skill, so much Privilege is stacked into the GWF class, that nothing comes close to it.
Sure, it's not like a top tier meta party of support can't pick ANY DPS (even a CW), and make it work easily, but the less top tier that meta support is, the more they'll want the top tier DPS (that also happens to come with the toughest survivability - against all MMO design rules), and GWF becomes the vastly preferred class.
That DEV Privilege has been there for years now, and super obvious since mod 12. All the new release content since then has been a sea of yellow, light blue and red, when you check. Really, really badly biased.
This so-called balancing is not going to change that. At best they're balancing builds within classes, not across classes.
And those that have all the privilege, speaking up in forums, throwing up enough fear, obfuscation and doubt, essentially to campaign for maintaining their privilege - guess what happens?
You get a boring game. It's just too easy. Why? Because the DEVs are trying to pretend that there's some kind of balance in it all, they can't create the genuinely tough content that will make the game fun.
You ever thought about how this game would look if they fixed the support meta that that is supposed to be 3 DPS + tank + healer (60% DPS - good balance for what players are actually looking to play), and they actually made repeated content difficult enough to be challenging and enjoyable?
You'd have 3 x GWF + tank + healer, and be back to the problems they had over 3 years ago with CWs filling all the slots. Why would you ever take a non-GWF along for DPS? Let's not pretend that you actually need control.
This is why they can't fix the meta support problem, and why they can't create content tough enough to be interesting for their Privileged DPS class.
Best they can do is temporarily frustrate you learning how to deal with some new weird mechanic in a release. Then, you learn it, and it's all boring again. There's no challenge in the 300x repeat runs you'll do, because it'll always have to be easy enough for the "other DPS" classes to get through. With the DPS classes gap so wide, you have to maintain the massive buff/debuff support bias (closer to 1 DPS + 4 support), to hide the gap.
I'm not sure if people responding in forums to protect their privilege realise how self-defeating it is in terms of having a more enjoyable game to play, or if being so far ahead of other classes is all the enjoyment they need.
Players that are actually good CWs will tell you the same, pretty much 'cause good CWs ain't defeatists who give up before they try.
I dunno about you, but if yer CW is 18k and you're getting rekt by a scrub 15k GWF... ya got a problem. A big one. CWs are no longer button mashers, and you've gotta actually play the class right to keep up a high DPS. So it may not be something for you.
I'm giving you a generalised outcome, but you've assumed that its personal and targeted me. Reread that part. There was nothing about anyone "getting rekt". You've gone the standard "ad hominem", at the same time that you figured out my post was a "troph of horse kankers" - even though you didn't read it???
This adds nothing useful to the topic, and really makes you look like the guy that shows up to discredit by any means possible, and substance isn't important. Maybe you were just having a bad day and just posted in a hurry, but you do have something useful to contribute?
Since mod 12, the end-game meta party stats have shown a very, very clear picture - the gap is real, and it is big. You simply can't ignore with vague reference to a couple of individuals in some unexplained context.
Maybe go back to your authority (the tester?), and report back on what they think the general DPS for a CW will be with AoC nerfed, and then specifically, whether the new boss killing power of Disintegrate is enough of a differentiator compared to other boss killing classes, to actually make CW a viable option to those meta parties so keen to have a GWF.
You can then add something useful to the topic
[Edit]
By the way, button mashing was never a CW thing. It did get a little more "button mashy" with the rise of MoF/Oppressor and the drop off of Spell Twisting, but rotations have always been key, and of all classes, CW tends to have the largest number of loadouts with different gear, feats and rotations for different scenarios. All that effort (including AD cost of extra R13 enchants for different loadout gear), doesn't get the CW ahead in any way - they're still struggling as 3rd rate DPS and 2nd rate support.
Less "button mashy" in the context of noticing/timing against other party buffs is a universal classes issue. It's less relevant to a class that can mash buttons with at-wills for incredible damage - but we all know that's not the CW class
I feel like these discussions can look binary: either CW is completely fine or it's absolute garbage. Not only is the truth is much more nuanced than that, a good anything looks amazing compared to the average anything else in this game. Comparing apples to oranges does not give us a solid bead on class balance issues, and too many players use personal anecdotes as evidence without supporting data. For every player who thinks CWs can never do decent DPS, we have another who, one time at band camp, saw a CW top the Paingiver chart in a random CoDG. I've been that CW before, but I play enough classes in end-game that I feel that I have a generally realistic notion of how CW compares.
I'm mostly staying away from Mod 15 testing because I'm waiting to be surprised on live and hopefully note some measurable improvement to CW competitiveness.
Back to the original post briefly, the change to AoC functionality is absolutely impactful to a class with a number of previously multi-proccing abilities like CW. We'll see what happens.
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
Can you plz stop your war against a certain class? Can you plz stop posting things such "buff slave for GWFs...suffer.."? You are in a group and there is one class that makes much more DPS than you. So what? You wont buff him bc you think your a "buff slave.." for this class? You dont think "Its better when i buff this guy. So we can get faster thru this dungoen here"? Selfish my friend and based on your posts: You are a really angry SW and i guess you never used ACT. So stop fighting in every thread you can find and try to give helpfull feedback instead your BS "facts" about other classes. Thx
People do not want to realize, but this is MOD 5 all over again, only this time the HDPS isn't CW, but a GWF.
You can still defeat a GWF occasionally. If you hit like a truck with tabbed disintegrate. Prolly would be higher numbers w u.fey/MoF etc. But I do not care to play that anymore.
if cws can beat gwfs even when gwfs proc all that HAMSTER of enchants/other classes, so THE REAL DAMAGE of cws, potentially, >than the real damage of gwfs. that means... in fact, you proved that gwfs need be buffed!!!
For the sake of posterity, this is one of the Top3 GWF's I've seen playing the game and he probably missed a couple of timings due to lag.
The only thing I proved is that CW's damage potential is unchanged and is still narrowed down to using Disintegrate as fast as possible. This is the alfa and omega of CW's damage atm and has been for a long time, now. So I have no idea why someone says that CW's are "finally not a button mashers" when it's quite the opposite.
On another hand, please note the damage done with Aura of Courage in comparison. This is a feat utilized by Paladins out of which atm GWFs have far more benefit.
There are many cases where CW and GWF, for instance, can't come close to a HR, for instance. In Mad Wizard HR's the boss. Archers are usually DPS class, so it makes sense to me.
And in comparison, both GWF and HR have way faster encounters/powers covering higher range than a CW whose only attribute is to be useful to the fullest once bosses HP is reduced to 1/4 of overall value.
Of course, this was done in Tiamat and you can imagine the amount of (de)buffs applied. But if we stood together just 2 of us, gwf wins, no contest even. Disparity would be well over 40%.
Calling for buffs is a no-brainer, for any class atm. Classes are way OP due to power-sharing and achieving 100% crit/Arpen at all times. Anyone can be superman with proper timing and practice of how to utilize non-personal skills properly.
so.. why cws get buffes until be on par to gwfs even w/o that procs? anyway, i dont wanna have my main source of damage coming from other class, and the third, from enchants (broken one by the way). Why that is not fair? by the way, carring a biiiiiiiiiig sword and hitting fast? i dont wanna that too. imagine a single and slow wms hitting 4 or 5 times heavy than now, to compensate for the losses of speed and procs? That kind of burst is what I want. you guys opened my mind about that.
no more "slaves", enchants abuses and super fast atwills. i need do, by fews and insanes sword attacks, the same damage as today. play gwfs hurt a lot your fingers; is terrible!
In a game where you have a whole stable of distinct-but-generally-equal support for magical and for physical DPS classes so that you can mix and match strategically, a skill like Aura of Courage could make sense. It wouldn't make sense for it to be a huge chunk of anyone's damage, but it would be okay for it work much better for some classes than for others since they would have their own preferred buff. In this game the best solution would probably be to rework AoC to add damage in a way that doesn't depend on player procs or that has a built-in CD to put everyone on the same footing.
Cryptic has steadily been clawing back multi-procs for the past few updates, and the impact is disproportionately felt by CW and SW. I think they've made some positive changes for both of those classes (as well as a few head-shaking choices that still need to be addressed), but it's also true that GWF and GF in particular continue to maintain and build on their versatility and overall capability, and the change to AoC is just another part of that issue.
Also, it's not difficult to understand why a lot of players are vocally sour on GWF and GF, because that resentment has been exacerbated by every recent major patch, Mod 15 being no exception with its change to AoC and its "tweak" to Griffon's Wrath to give it ridiculous uptime for an end-game GF in party with DC/OP. Some classes fight tooth and nail to be noticed and to have needful changes implemented just to help them keep pace while these two classes easily remain two of the most powerful and versatile DPS in the game with incredible defensive options (e.g. Unstoppable) that can be leveraged offensively to help them keep up the DPS vs. most enemy CC. It's not only synergy with AoC; Cryptic's Monty Haul classes are out of control at this point and need to be reined in a bit for the health of the game.
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
The IBS number is terrible...
The reality is that the GWF buffs it self than receives groups buffs. As we all know buffs are multipliers and makes the GWF hit harder than any other class. This is where the devs need to make a change; not a nerf. The change should be buff GWF base damage and remove the self buffing feature of the GWF. This would balance out the class and get it more inline with other classes.
Using Battle Fury and Daggers GWF are getting a crazy buff and when you start to add other buffs such as gear, companions, party members, potions, etc.. the damage for the GWF just continues to increase.
What I have seen in this post is that many players realize that GWF is the current meta DPS for mod 15 and I believe that is correct. I have a feeling that come mod 16 we may see changes to the GWF as that class does not offer any type of buffing or true ability to tank. Given that the devs said there are role changes coming in mod 16, we may see things done to the GWF and at this point it is all speculation on what the devs plan. I for one hope they modify the base damage and remove the self buffing or modify the self buffing to be a group buff.
As for AoC it should only proc once per a second regardless if it comes from a DoT or a standard burst damaging ability. Limiting AoC to proc only once per a second would level out the playing field for AoC and how it proc for all classes. The next thing I would do is make it go by the OP HP, this way all classes in a run share the damage buff equally and not based on each player HP. The last thing I would do is reduce the damage of AoC by 50% as it is to high in its current state.
As for enchantments; all of them need to be revisited and modify or better yet simply reduce our base crit severity to 50% down from the 75% we have today. Than I would revisit each enchantment to see how it performs for each class and modify them as needed to ensure all enchantments have a place in the game.
As for those complaining about GWF, if it is not a friend of mine I simply will pick up any other DPS class that is not a GWF. This way SW, TR, HR, and CW all get a fair shot at playing DPS in my groups. There is no reason to take a GWF as most are so selfish they won't even run battlefury to share a slight buff in other team member damage.
Here are my stories with GWF....
In T9 on my CW I was playing a buffer. I was using my AoE Opp build up to Orcus and the GWF that formed the group kicked me before Orcus because I was doing 25% more damage than him.
In CoDG, I was kicked by the GWF that formed the group on my DC because I ended up surpassing him because I did not fall off on the first push pull and basically was the DPS at that point and surpassed all other DPS and was kicked right before the boss went down. Similar thing happened when I was on my CW and GF as well.
My point is I never get kicked from groups expect when the group is formed by a GWF and it always happens if I end up beating them. The point I'm making is that quite a few GWF are very selfish player and many don't like to lose on the pain giver. I honestly could care less as long as I beat the content. The thing is though this game has GWF, HR, SW, TR and CW as DPS for the current Q system and all of the classes should be able to produce like damage, period. If that is not happening the devs have to adjust the classes so they all can get within 5% of each other; otherwise the devs are simply catering to one DPS class and since mod 6 the catering has been to GWFs. Its time to truly balance out the game and let all DPS classes shine.
Open up YT. Search for "one phase orcus neverwinter". Do you find only GWF vids?
Hint:
Make cradle and take a right skilled HR and you will see who is top DPS.
Hint:
DPS Buffs at GWF to high? Srly....? From a SW? You know all classes got self buffs? Which class do you think is the top single DPS calss atm? Do you really think its the GWF?
M8....your "war" against one class is bc you where mistreaded in the past from some rnd bad playing GWFs....get over it.
And plz fgs:
Install ACT and check how classes are working. Check how synergies are working.
Dont get me wrong. If a class is way to op comparing to other classes im on your site for better balance. But you my friend....your just doing your personell vendetta.
The other tree, Soulbinder, is more capable to deal dps but not that wanted in general, due to missing 18% buff + 10% debuff, less group-effective.
GWF is a potent striker, mostly because the class synergizes better with enchants like Prominence or AoC as we all know.
Actually I monitored an overall dps from that enchant >30% on a 18k GWF in CODG endboss, but the class is not miles above other and if you take those AoC and Prom away that class will drop to "normal" or worse I think.
If anything should be "reworked" on GWF, I only hope the devs will not do the same mistake and halve the damage of another striker like they did with TR actually. This game can´t handle another fallout of a class imo and GWF same as TR can´t do anything else (TR actually can run debuffer, 51% if I am correct).
Atm I can hold against most GWF on a Hellbinger (buff/dps) build on my warlock (focus dps), spending the both buffs to my group when GWF does not, admitted that about 15% of that damage is not WAI...or WAI..who knows.
Surely a top GWF, same as GF would do far better in a "speedkill-setup", nothing my lock can hold against.
But in a "normal group", where buffs are not focussed on those 3-4 hits, the difference is not that significant.
About GF I´d say fix bugs first (SWW=doublebuffs with 40%, not 20%) and fix Griffon before messing it up.