So moderators don't follow their own rules even on this forum?
"Also, please keep in mind that at no time is it permissible to post about or discuss Game/Forum Infractions, Forum Moderation, Rules, Terms, EULA, or Legal Claims on our forums."
This topic is just damage control trying to keep people in line. There are other places to discuss NeverwinterOnline in more open and non controlled ways and it appears to be freaking you out.
So somehow stating the rule is same as discussing it? And I absolutely don't get why anybody should be freaking out over that. *sigh* People...
Personally I think you guys do a great job, I prefer to read informative chat than rants.
I do agree wholeheartedly with comments about comms within the game though, not everyone comes here to read warnings about ToS violations. It would have been brilliant if the hunts lady (I would check her name, but maintenance...) could have sent an email in game saying she’s got her eye on people cheating her hunts and that there would be dire consequences to those cheating.
And before anyone bemoans my use of the word cheating rather than exploiting, in the context of an NPC saying it they would call it cheating as they don’t know they are in a game with exploits.
LOL comment from someone that joined 3 days ago xD get real buddy (smells like an admin or mod made an account just to provide positive feedback for a mods post)
Right... That is very important to be done. Maybe we made the account from the previous quote too? This is exactly the kind of mindset causing issues.
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tripsofthrymrMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,624Community Moderator
edited September 2018
Let me add that I fully agree with the OP. Here are a few thoughts that come to mind regarding some of the comments
Official discussion/acknowledgment of exploits is dicey. Even if it may seem "everyone" knows about a specific exploit, it's probable that many/most in fact do not. Discussing it in the official forum can make players curious, they may seek out the information, and end up exploiting (especially if the do get the sense that "everyone" is doing it).
People don't need alternative places to discuss the game unless they have been banned on the official forum, can't discuss in a civil manner, or want to talk about exploits. Criticism is welcome and encouraged when offered in a respectful manner (one of the foundry's in my signature is a criticism of some game decisions and they even made me a moderator). Having said that, it's welcome and healthy that there are other communities out there.
People who have been moderated tend to complain loudly about moderation. People who take note of moderation in a positive way are far less vocal. The vast majority of forum participants have no opinion about moderation. We try to explain and reason before issuing infraction points, and it takes a whole lot of breakdown in decorum for a player to be banned.
We used to have a Disagree button. It was removed because a subset of forum participants used it as a way to flame instead of to express genuine disagreement with a specific comment.
Moderators are all human. As such, we can make mistakes and we can interpret a specific post with regard to forum rules differently. We are all, however, copied on every moderation action and internally discuss when we have some disagreement. When a moderator is on the fence, they often reach out to other moderators for a second opinion before taking action.
Moderators are players, too. We don't like bugs or weak game systems. We want discussion of what's wrong with the game because we want the game to steadily improve over time.
LOL comment from someone that joined 3 days ago xD get real buddy (smells like an admin or mod made an account just to provide positive feedback for a mods post)
Sorry to disappoint but just a regular player for a few months, been reading the forums to learn a lot about the game, particularly how incoming changes may impact me. I’m on console so I mainly learn from reading how changes impact PC players so haven’t needed to post, people who know way more than me have already covered any questions I have.
For example I’ve always donated the excess gold from leadership to my guild, but now know to hoard that stuff like it’s, well, gold!
> @tripsofthrymr said: > Let me add that I fully agree with the OP. Here are a few thoughts that come to mind regarding some of the comments > > * Official discussion/acknowledgment of exploits is dicey. Even if it may seem "everyone" knows about a specific exploit, it's probable that many/most in fact do not. Discussing it in the official forum can make players curious, they may seek out the information, and end up exploiting (especially if the do get the sense that "everyone" is doing it). > > * People don't need alternative places to discuss the game unless they have been banned on the official forum, can't discuss in a civil manner, or want to talk about exploits. Criticism is welcome and encouraged when offered in a respectful manner (one of the foundry's in my signature is a criticism of some game decisions and they even made me a moderator). Having said that, it's welcome and healthy that there are other communities out there. > > * People who have been moderated tend to complain loudly about moderation. People who take note of moderation in a positive way are far less vocal. The vast majority of forum participants have no opinion about moderation. We try to explain and reason before issuing infraction points, and it takes a whole lot of breakdown in decorum for a player to be banned. > > * We used to have a Disagree button. It was removed because a subset of forum participants used it as a way to flame instead of to express genuine disagreement with a specific comment. > > * Moderators are all human. As such, we can make mistakes and we can interpret a specific post with regard to forum rules differently. We are all, however, copied on every moderation action and internally discuss when we have some disagreement. When a moderator is on the fence, they often reach out to other moderators for a second opinion before taking action. > > * Moderators are players, too. We don't like bugs or weak game systems. We want discussion of what's wrong with the game because we want the game to steadily improve over time.
1. Official discussion/acknowledgment of exploits is dicey. = Even when this can help avoid exploits / cheats? Also acknowledgment might lead to the developers even fixing said exploints? There is a reason bugs from code / security are published as a general practice to keep the software developers fixing them.
2. People don't need alternative places to discuss the game= Says the people that want to control the conversation. I think dictators have often preached something similar against free speech.
3. People who have been moderated tend to complain loudly about moderation.= Agree bad reviews get left way more often then positive. I agree with you. But I think the vast majority part is a stretch. so Agree to disagree?
4. We used to have a Disagree button.= Not sure why this should have been removed.
5. Moderators are all human. = Are you sure? .... j/k
6. Moderators are players, too. We don't like bugs or weak game systems. We want discussion of what's wrong with the game because we want the game to steadily improve over time. = As long is it is on our terms... is what this screams to me.
@frozenfirevr So ... what's the excuse for this one being moderated? Anyone reading it should have been able to see it was posted purely to be humorous. Yet it got canned.
1. Official discussion/acknowledgment of exploits is dicey. = Even when this can help avoid exploits / cheats? Also acknowledgment might lead to the developers even fixing said exploints? There is a reason bugs from code / security are published as a general practice to keep the software developers fixing them.
I think we can both agree that serious bugs have at times lasted far longer than either the players or the developers would prefer. Communicating them to the moderation team via PM here or in other channels like Discord is actually effective in maintaining visibility. Bug fixes are balanced against other activities like new content, improvements in the game systems and, well, other bugs. You sometimes hear the narrative that the development team "doesn't care" about bugs or "is too lazy to fix the bugs." I can tell you, based on many behind-the-scenes data points, the development team works far harder than most players imagine and cares deeply about the game. Forcing action on a specific bug doesn't make them work even harder (because they're already at that limit), it forces them to re-prioritize. In my view, spreading the means to cheat is counter-productive.
As for the other points you disagree on, yes we'll have to agree to disagree and that's fine.
@frozenfirevr So ... what's the excuse for this one being moderated? Anyone reading it should have been able to see it was posted purely to be humorous. Yet it got canned.
We created this post to provide an avenue to discuss moderation in general terms. The rule about discussing specific moderation actions in public still applies. Feel free to PM the moderators questions about specific moderation actions.
I blame the (for lack of better words) millennial mindset of entitlement, ignorance, lack of responsibility, respect and common sense amongst other triggering things which is spreading like a virus.
Actions can have consequences! This is something most people learn as kids growing up....
Rules are there for a reason, adhere to them or at least take it on the chin if you get caught breaking them. Take responsibility, ignorance is just an excuse; one which doesn't hold up in most situations.
/end old peoples rant imitation
I suggest that you spend some time volunteering in a retirement community.
Industry standard is to inform the group responsible privately and giving 3 months for fixing before publishing it publicly.
That's a measure (I hesitate to call it an industry standard) in the cyber-security space. The reason for setting the time limit is the balancing act between allowing the responsible party enough time to react and leaving users vulnerable to a malicious hack with potentially severe consequences.
In the game space, I'd put it differently. Is three months a reasonable time to expect a serious flaw to be fixed? Probably. What risk does a player face if the flaw isn't fixed? Well, they can still play the game in its flawed state or choose to take a break if it ruins the experience for them. The consequences aren't in the same league as the consequences of a security vulnerability.
So, in general terms I agree that three months should suffice to fix a serious flaw but disagree that the passage of time justifies sharing exploit details.
At times, I've thought some of the moderation is a little over the top regarding stuff when has made these forums boring. But on reflection, there is probably a fine line between a bit of stirring and when it starts building up to be online bullying (even if unintended). It's not an easy job and I don't envy any of the moderators.
I think we could have left the disagree button tho, removing that was imo a little over zealous. Surely we are allowed to disagree?
Discussion of moderation - zero tolerance comes across a bit HAMSTER like to me, but probably an issue of where do you draw the line.
Overall, I think the Mods do a good job.
of course you're allowed to disagree. by coherently writing your argument out instead of using the lazy button.
At times, I've thought some of the moderation is a little over the top regarding stuff when has made these forums boring. But on reflection, there is probably a fine line between a bit of stirring and when it starts building up to be online bullying (even if unintended). It's not an easy job and I don't envy any of the moderators.
I think we could have left the disagree button tho, removing that was imo a little over zealous. Surely we are allowed to disagree?
Discussion of moderation - zero tolerance comes across a bit HAMSTER like to me, but probably an issue of where do you draw the line.
Overall, I think the Mods do a good job.
of course you're allowed to disagree. by coherently writing your argument out instead of using the lazy button. Taking away the disagree button was the opposite of over moderation. it's encouraging discussion
same could be said for the agree button
maybe im just lazy (hence why no punctuation)
agreement IS simple. you agree what more is to be said. if you disagree there is a lot to be said. are you disagreeing just because you are mad at the other person and this is a good way to vent. Are you disagreeing because you actually disagree.. but do you disagree with point a, point b, point c. point d? and why do you disagree. is there something that could be improved on? there is a lot to talk about with disagree. nothing to talk about with agree.
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tripsofthrymrMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,624Community Moderator
agreement IS simple. you agree what more is to be said. if you disagree there is a lot to be said. are you disagreeing just because you are mad at the other person and this is a good way to vent. Are you disagreeing because you actually disagree.. but do you disagree with point a, point b, point c. point d? and why do you disagree. is there something that could be improved on? there is a lot to talk about with disagree. nothing to talk about with agree.
There are some communities where up- and downvoting works quite well, such as the StackExchange family of websites. There, it serves more as an agreement/disagreement as to the factual correctness of statements and to their usefulness/completeness in answering the original question.
In our forums, we far more often discuss matters of opinion rather than matters of fact. In our context, I'm with you that clicking disagree doesn't provide much useful, actionable information.
1. Official discussion/acknowledgment of exploits is dicey. = Even when this can help avoid exploits / cheats? Also acknowledgment might lead to the developers even fixing said exploints? There is a reason bugs from code / security are published as a general practice to keep the software developers fixing them.
I think we can both agree that serious bugs have at times lasted far longer than either the players or the developers would prefer. Communicating them to the moderation team via PM here or in other channels like Discord is actually effective in maintaining visibility. Bug fixes are balanced against other activities like new content, improvements in the game systems and, well, other bugs. You sometimes hear the narrative that the development team "doesn't care" about bugs or "is too lazy to fix the bugs." I can tell you, based on many behind-the-scenes data points, the development team works far harder than most players imagine and cares deeply about the game. Forcing action on a specific bug doesn't make them work even harder (because they're already at that limit), it forces them to re-prioritize. In my view, spreading the means to cheat is counter-productive.
As for the other points you disagree on, yes we'll have to agree to disagree and that's fine.
Even if some didn't know it and do go seek it out after hearing it's a thing.. If there has been official communication that it shouldn't be done and that there will be consequences (And those consequences will be laid out) fewer people are likely to participate. I heard a lot of discussion as this was beginning and there was waffling. ppl weren't sure they should but the consensus was it was basically sanctioned as no action and no statement had been made thus far.
I do think a lot of people got trapped into this one. (and I am not speaking from sour grapes. I was never banned and I was too busy farming cr to be one of the bandwagon here) ppl were under the direct impression that this was known about and no one had got in trouble on pc. Also, other things along the same lines were never punished historically in this game. Couple that with no statement of acknowledgement from the game or threat of consequences, so the general feeling was, OPEN SEASON!! If there had been clear communication that it was known, a fix was in the works and ppl WOULD BE BANNED and ad reset.. I honestly think it would not have been the problem it is today.
Communicating that there is a exploit has the potential to make people aware of a exploit than silence, true.. but Silence on the matter is far more likely to act as an "OK, go have fun", in my opinion, to the average person. More people are on the side of good than bad. As a mod you really need to be coming at it from that angle than assuming everyone is bad. This is just a game we're talking about. Silence is basically an ok to game the system to many. We play by the rules but in the lack of stated rules isn't it ok to make our own?
Isn't there a long tradition in gaming of making rules to suit individual playstyle and to have fun that way?
I think a lot of people were just told what to do when they got invited to a party and did it.. because that's how social systems work. you do what the party leader says. (let's not go into would you jump off a bridge, i think a significant amount would. lol) I heard a lot of people justify it that there had been no one telling them not to so nothing bad would happen. (again we are talking in the confines of a game, not actual bridges or life altering situations)
Cheating in a game doesn't mean someone is a bad person. Be honest, have you really gotten thru a game of monopoly without at least one person cheating? LOL. It's a long standing tradition of gamers to game the system however they can.. so it can't be shocking when it happens in a game especially when it requires zero effort and the overwhelming thought is there will be no consequences?
If people are told it's bad!!! there will be consequences!!!! this this and this.. More will refrain than go forward and the ones who would go forward are gonna do it anyway. I also think that everyone who actually takes the time to come to the forums is gonna know about it already. they were probably driven to the forums by the many talks of glitch runs in game chat. from what i understand the majority of hunts being advertised were glitch runs even if they didn't state it.
Communication is good. Silence on things like this is VERY VERY VERY BAD..
such a large population was affected that how something like this is treated affects the game.
Communication helps. Expectations must be set.
It's like telling people the rules after the fact. Common sense is a thing, true. But we're talking about gaming rules here. Gaming rules are different than real life rules. People will play by the rules of the game given to them and if there are no rules they make up their own. In real life, most people know the rules and they know the consequences.. and they are real and life altering so they're not gonna do bad things. game rules are safe. your real life will never be affected. your freedoms will not be affected. so people can get that thrill of taking risks they wouldn't really take in real life. but they'll still try to adhere to the rules if they are given them. you'll always get monopoly cheaters.. but it's usually 1 person out of 10 instead of 8/10 which is what we had here. because in this version of monopoly without any posted rules it was ok to jump off a bridge.
Post edited by thefiresidecat on
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checkmatein3Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 525Arc User
edited September 2018
Thanks for the post. I will not pontificate about the morality of communication or motives within moderation, because I would inevitably fail at whatever standard I would try and put forward.
Thanks for the post. While I'm really on the same page as for the "emotional" feedback being really hard to withstand (hell, sometimes I may loose it and write something stupid here when irritated) but overall my response to you is: you guys asked for it yourselves..
Please mind, that this forum has not so many active users. Most of the players just play the game cause they don't feel like attending forums is important. Yet, there is a growing frustration in the community and it's pointed towards Cryptic and the people behind the game. New accounts are being opened on this forums just to show how frustrated people are.
And it's not like we are not reaching the hand towards you guys. Cause we do.
And I also understand that you guys are really busy working, but the negativity that's starting to overflowing the game is mostly behind the absolute lack of the responses to community, failure in communication and that's only showing the lack of respect for the players.
Players are not feeling respected. What kind of disrespect am I talking about?
- The game is full of bugs being there for ages. We never get any real answer on time of the fix. Every time I see "it's on our radar" I think that a cute panda bear dies somewhere.
- The way you guys handled huntgate. It's just disgusting. People don't care it's Perfect World. You guys work together under the banner of Neverwinter and you are considered one. The fact that you are saying "it's not us it's them" makes it so unprofessional that I am disgusted. While I wasn't even touched by whole this mess, as an observator from the side I think this could be handled much more in a professional way.
- The way you guys are handling prolonging maintenences. That's just scandalous. I, my friends, we all get it may take more time. But the way you guys are communicating it is just... I don't have words. Updates that it will take few hours more 5 mins after the primarily scheduled time? You seriously didn't knew until the very end that it will take few more hours?
EDIT: Also, on the sidenote - it's literally blowing my mind that you don't have any QA people. The fact that this studio's tests rely purely on what will players find on the test server is just above my imagination.
I may point many, many things more here. But I think you get the point. The amount of disrespect is showed to the community is not something that will stay unnoticed by the community. There's a saying in my country "Whoever sows the wind then collects the storm". And that storm is starting to coming at you guys. It's up to you what you want to do with it.
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frozenfirevrMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,475Community Moderator
This is exactly the kind of mindset causing issues.
You brought this on yourself.
Lets be completely realistic here, very few people trust you (and by this type of you I dont mean you personally but I mean the entire company side, cryptic and arc and devs and whoever).
We can see your lies, we can see your attempts at manipulation (especially the reddit forum being nothing more than an extension of your company instead of a fan run forum, and your people there have the audacity to claim that there and here are not linked which is, as already stated, a disgrace), and we view your game changes in an ever negative way as simply more money grabs. I could say more on your faults and give numerous examples to back this up but this would result in moderation so I will stop it here.
Why do people see you this way? The answer is very simple: you suck at communication, you have terrible public relations, you ask for feedback then ignore it completely and plough straight on with the terrible ideas you came up with originally, you never fix bugs/exploits in a timely manner and because of this people see you as incompetent (which has a knock on effect). There is again plenty more to say here, with examples, but this post would likely be moderated so I will again stop here.
Back to the quote, making a shill account to say nice things about your company is exactly the sort of thing that people think you would do because we see all the nonsense you have pulled previously and are still trying to pull.
People think this because of the way you act. Reputation, yours is terrible and it is your own fault.
That's exactly what I talked about. People wear their smarty pants and think everything in the world is a conspiracy. Well, it isn't. If you're not ready accept a fact, fine. But that doesn't make a fact a lie.
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frozenfirevrMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,475Community Moderator
The game is full of bugs being there for ages. We never get any real answer on time of the fix. Every time I see "it's on our radar" I think that a cute panda bear dies somewhere.
This basically is off topic. The community team doesn't not build and maintain the game. We were talking just about how people are acting in the forum and how it could improve. The devs obviously have a lot going on and different bugs are at different priorities for different people. Not everybody can be made happy. You're still able to play and are playing, they're able to keep that much going.
The way you guys handled huntgate. It's just disgusting. People don't care it's Perfect World. You guys work together under the banner of Neverwinter and you are considered one. The fact that you are saying "it's not us it's them" makes it so unprofessional that I am disgusted. While I wasn't even touched by whole this mess, as an observator from the side I think this could be handled much more in a professional way.
When did anybody say "it's not us it's them"?!! We just said nobody on the forum can handle those issues and hence there's no point bringing it up here (even clearly stated in the OP).
The way you guys are handling prolonging maintenences. That's just scandalous. I, my friends, we all get it may take more time. But the way you guys are communicating it is just... I don't have words. Updates that it will take few hours more 5 mins after the primarily scheduled time? You seriously didn't knew until the very end that it will take few more hours?
Things aren't always rosy and don't go as planned. As already said by percemer, the server were in the process of being moved and ran into issues causing extensions.
I also want this forums to be less toxic than it is. If there's anything we can do to help you guys - I think most of us will gladly do this.
But the toxicity and the way people are exposing their feeling here is because of the growing frustration. And that's something that needs to be addressed by the team.
I don't think people are having issues with how this forums is being moderated. So far I think everyone here from the mod team is doing fairly good job.
As for the maintenence - I already said it, that it's not about the fact that it took longer. I get that, these kinds of things happen. I just don't like how it is communicated by you guys. I do not belive that team always finds out 5mins after scheduled time that it will take few more hours. It's about how it was said to people.
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frozenfirevrMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,475Community Moderator
I also want this forums to be less toxic than it is. If there's anything we can do to help you guys - I think most of us will gladly do this.
But the toxicity and the way people are exposing their feeling here is because of the growing frustration. And that's something that needs to be addressed by the team.
I don't think people are having issues with how this forums is being moderated. So far I think everyone here from the mod team is doing fairly good job.
As for the maintenence - I already said it, that it's not about the fact that it took longer. I get that, these kinds of things happen. I just don't like how it is communicated by you guys. I do not belive that team always finds out 5mins after scheduled time that it will take few more hours. It's about how it was said to people.
Okay, those bits I can agree with. Hopefully we'll be able to do something about it.
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
Official discussion/acknowledgment of exploits is dicey. Even if it may seem "everyone" knows about a specific exploit, it's probable that many/most in fact do not. Discussing it in the official forum can make players curious, they may seek out the information, and end up exploiting (especially if the do get the sense that "everyone" is doing it).
In general 'obscurity as security' is a long debated topic, its merits and severe drawbacks. If we look at just one aspect, in the most simplified form then yes, it will indeed allow people to go and look for existing exploits, and I don't believe it is in anyone's interest. But at the same time more discussion / acknowledgment can have more benefits than negatives if we consider more aspects of it.
This is like you wrote an aspect of prioritization, the game suffers, imo, from a failure in telemetry, data analysis is slow to non existent and the reaction is even slower. The parallel of the issue and solution will be an infection, treat it fast and you are back on your feet in no time, let it fester, and the amputation will be much much more painful and with much more lasting results.
A computer game doesn't need the same cycle that hardware, life critical, or OSs needed. When an issue is found even without clear reproduction steps, telemetry can be inserted in the proper places, in a week it gives the correct details, and in two it can be fixed.
Industry standard is to inform the group responsible privately and giving 3 months for fixing before publishing it publicly.
That's a measure (I hesitate to call it an industry standard) in the cyber-security space. The reason for setting the time limit is the balancing act between allowing the responsible party enough time to react and leaving users vulnerable to a malicious hack with potentially severe consequences.
Three months is perhaps valid for extremely large and complex software that affects multi millions of users, validation process for firmware, microcode, OSs is not simple, and the results can be extremely critical even loss of life.
In games, the constrains and expectations are different, we expect to see much more rapid deployment cycles but willing to accept larger number of various bugs due to ongoing addition of content.
In the game space, I'd put it differently. Is three months a reasonable time to expect a serious flaw to be fixed? Probably. What risk does a player face if the flaw isn't fixed? Well, they can still play the game in its flawed state or choose to take a break if it ruins the experience for them. The consequences aren't in the same league as the consequences of a security vulnerability.
So, in general terms I agree that three months should suffice to fix a serious flaw but disagree that the passage of time justifies sharing exploit details.
Can I / Should I take a break when someone uses resonators to destroy the economy, and inflate the prices to high heaven for something I'm grinding my HAMSTER off to get? Should I take a break when in mod6 I'm spending countless hours to get those T2 done, learn the mechanics and improve, while a group can just pull the boss through the barrier and be done with it ?
Indeed the consequences are not in the same league, but considering them in the scope of the game, and the time it takes to fix and roll the fix is also not on the same league.
Back to the more original idea, if the trade offs are worth it? The chance more people are exposed to exploits, and the devs are 'forced' to prioritize the fixes?
There are many implications to allowing exploits to remain in game without a fix nor timely reaction. As in the infection / amputation example, and further examples like the Broken windows theory, effectiveness of an effect in relation in time to the cause, or the creation of consensus of what allowed, negligence and shared responsibility with lack of enforcement and a lot more topics. It is probably not the place to discuss those, unfortunately.
Is it 100% assured that discussion will be better than the current situation? Ofc not. But the fact is that the current situation has a lot to be improved upon. Any change is a risk, but at the current state of things, IMO, information is a tool and with some thought and proper 'process' it is possible to use it to improve things, or on the other hand deteriorate things further.
Just to clarify, the above is not to take away from the personal responsibility of a anyone to their actions, but there are long studied expected behaviors and methods that can be applied to encourage positive and discourage negative. Humanity is not at the state where we can just let-go of all policing aspects. Second thing, is that in discussion about exploits, in no way the idea is public reproduction steps, those should always be private until a fix introduced.
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lantern22Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,111Arc User
At times, I've thought some of the moderation is a little over the top regarding stuff when has made these forums boring. But on reflection, there is probably a fine line between a bit of stirring and when it starts building up to be online bullying (even if unintended). It's not an easy job and I don't envy any of the moderators.
I think we could have left the disagree button tho, removing that was imo a little over zealous. Surely we are allowed to disagree?
Discussion of moderation - zero tolerance comes across a bit HAMSTER like to me, but probably an issue of where do you draw the line.
Overall, I think the Mods do a good job.
of course you're allowed to disagree. by coherently writing your argument out instead of using the lazy button.
At times, I've thought some of the moderation is a little over the top regarding stuff when has made these forums boring. But on reflection, there is probably a fine line between a bit of stirring and when it starts building up to be online bullying (even if unintended). It's not an easy job and I don't envy any of the moderators.
I think we could have left the disagree button tho, removing that was imo a little over zealous. Surely we are allowed to disagree?
Discussion of moderation - zero tolerance comes across a bit HAMSTER like to me, but probably an issue of where do you draw the line.
Overall, I think the Mods do a good job.
of course you're allowed to disagree. by coherently writing your argument out instead of using the lazy button. Taking away the disagree button was the opposite of over moderation. it's encouraging discussion
same could be said for the agree button
maybe im just lazy (hence why no punctuation)
agreement IS simple. you agree what more is to be said. if you disagree there is a lot to be said. are you disagreeing just because you are mad at the other person and this is a good way to vent. Are you disagreeing because you actually disagree.. but do you disagree with point a, point b, point c. point d? and why do you disagree. is there something that could be improved on? there is a lot to talk about with disagree. nothing to talk about with agree.
Why can't someone just disagree? Why does it have to be justified or explained in detail?
And its OK if you disagree with my opinion, you don't need to write a paragraph to explain why. It is actually OK to disagree, its natural and its healthy as long as it isn't nasty.
Now people are using the "LOL" button in its place, I always used that when I thought someone said something funny, now that has been horribly twisted into something nasty that I did not intend.
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
People don't need alternative places to discuss the game unless they have been banned on the official forum, can't discuss in a civil manner, or want to talk about exploits. Criticism is welcome and encouraged when offered in a respectful manner (one of the foundry's in my signature is a criticism of some game decisions and they even made me a moderator). Having said that, it's welcome and healthy that there are other communities out there.
Unfortunately I can't agree here. While there are many things I agree that should be removed, and moderated, and myself posted things knowing that they will/should be removed.
In some cases, "respectful manner" taken to an unreasonable extreme, or because imaginary insults, or not sugar coated enough feedback. I'm sorry, but constructive criticisms definition doesn't dictate to add lies to make it sound better..
Moderators afraid to counter balance / stand against some requests even if come from "above". (I don't remember if you were a mod back then, but feel free to check why I was shadowbanned once for a good example of what I'm talking about)
Debates closed because moderators do not have the time or "man power" to actually read them. Threads merged into incoherence to again ease up moderation.
Many people found alternatives not because they were banned, or uncivil, or want to discuss exploits, or because they want to be rude. Ofc some did because some of the above, and some because of all of the above, but this is not the majority. Look at the class sub-sections here, and go check class discords, or facebooks. Which are moderated too btw.
The main reason people still come here is because the devs are here and there is that slim slim hope that their feedback will be heard, or argue against some of those suggestions..
People who have been moderated tend to complain loudly about moderation. People who take note of moderation in a positive way are far less vocal. The vast majority of forum participants have no opinion about moderation. We try to explain and reason before issuing infraction points, and it takes a whole lot of breakdown in decorum for a player to be banned.
And some just leave. There are no longer, vast majority here or there, we are years post that. Now there are several dozen regulars arguing about the same things, and I'm sure most have an opinion about moderation.
There is also this fun aspect of shadow bans, where due process is forgotten. In some cases personally I'm glad, like there is a recent one, but in general is it a good thing to do? IMO no.
Moderators are all human. As such, we can make mistakes and we can interpret a specific post with regard to forum rules differently. We are all, however, copied on every moderation action and internally discuss when we have some disagreement. When a moderator is on the fence, they often reach out to other moderators for a second opinion before taking action.
Making mistakes is more than understandable, but the question is what happens after, what was improved, what conclusions, or how may times even a mistake was admitted ?
I'm of the opinion that devs shouldn't spend day and night in the game, it's their job to dev, and not to play. Yet they should have the tools and capability to get the information needed and analyze it to make decisions (In specific case of NW I've touched that in previous post)
In the case of moderators I do believe that a moderator that didn't login into the game for months and months shouldn't moderate. It does not mean that a moderator should be BiS, nor it should be the main criteria, but someone who is 4 mods behind is not an ideal candidate, nor obviously have the time.
BTW The original criteria of knowledge of D&D lore is dumbfounding.
We don't like bugs or weak game systems. We want discussion of what's wrong with the game because we want the game to steadily improve over time.
I do believe that no one intends a malicious intent, and while many disagree on the "how", at the end most want the game to succeed. But as the proverb says "The road to hell is paved with good intentions", good intentions are not a reason to not change things, improve, adjust, or accountability.
PS: while I quoted Trips for the topics and address those, I do not mean it specifically addressed to him/you.
Post edited by micky1p00 on
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
At times, I've thought some of the moderation is a little over the top regarding stuff when has made these forums boring. But on reflection, there is probably a fine line between a bit of stirring and when it starts building up to be online bullying (even if unintended). It's not an easy job and I don't envy any of the moderators.
I think we could have left the disagree button tho, removing that was imo a little over zealous. Surely we are allowed to disagree?
Discussion of moderation - zero tolerance comes across a bit HAMSTER like to me, but probably an issue of where do you draw the line.
Overall, I think the Mods do a good job.
of course you're allowed to disagree. by coherently writing your argument out instead of using the lazy button.
At times, I've thought some of the moderation is a little over the top regarding stuff when has made these forums boring. But on reflection, there is probably a fine line between a bit of stirring and when it starts building up to be online bullying (even if unintended). It's not an easy job and I don't envy any of the moderators.
I think we could have left the disagree button tho, removing that was imo a little over zealous. Surely we are allowed to disagree?
Discussion of moderation - zero tolerance comes across a bit HAMSTER like to me, but probably an issue of where do you draw the line.
Overall, I think the Mods do a good job.
of course you're allowed to disagree. by coherently writing your argument out instead of using the lazy button. Taking away the disagree button was the opposite of over moderation. it's encouraging discussion
same could be said for the agree button
maybe im just lazy (hence why no punctuation)
agreement IS simple. you agree what more is to be said. if you disagree there is a lot to be said. are you disagreeing just because you are mad at the other person and this is a good way to vent. Are you disagreeing because you actually disagree.. but do you disagree with point a, point b, point c. point d? and why do you disagree. is there something that could be improved on? there is a lot to talk about with disagree. nothing to talk about with agree.
Why can't someone just disagree? Why does it have to be justified or explained in detail?
And its OK if you disagree with my opinion, you don't need to write a paragraph to explain why. It is actually OK to disagree, its natural and its healthy as long as it isn't nasty.
Now people are using the "LOL" button in its place, I always used that when I thought someone said something funny, now that has been horribly twisted into something nasty that I did not intend.
Because just stating "disagree" has 0 contribution. Lets say I've clicked disagree to your post now. I could be disagreeing just because I don't like you, but it's easy, I don't have to explain myself, so I just click a button. I could disagree with the justified part. I could disagree with the LOL part.
In essence simply clicking disagree without anything else is taking the other person ability to respond, and in a way nasty on it's own. Akin to:
I do agree on the LOL btw, people misuse and abuse it and it's a shame..
> @dupeks said: > Thanks for your efforts. As newest moderator I'd wager you're also the most positive / optimistic. > > Here's the problem: the devs, studio, and community team set the volunteer mods up for a bad time. In essence, they don't invest in community relations very well, make ruthless / brutal customer service decisions, and use the goodwill of the mods to clean up the repeated blowback, asking you to filter through awful bile and vitriol in the process. > > That's not fair to you. They are burning up your positive energy through lack of proper action and customer support mentality. And in part through insistence on a certain approach to moderation, they paint a target squarely on the volunteer mods to seem like shills when all you're trying to do is enforce a positive discourse. > > I agree that in some optimistic utopia, the problem could be solved as you describe, through collective positivity on the side of the community... building understanding and ownership over the game. > > The problem is that we can't get there from where we are today. And that's not your fault. And I doubt there's much you can do to even send that message up the chain. > > You have my sincerest sympathies.
Well that was done because of well the botspam and more antibot measures. TO make sure they have a harder time. It has reduced the spam in protectors enclave. But yeah not sure but I think buying zen and having it verified also unlocks the chat or is that method not work now and you still have to go through those questlines?
I am not sure their reason for it, but anyone using zone chat in PE knows there are plenty of spam bots. Recently there has been one that will post one line at a time from a manifesto about conspiracies and the flat Earth theory. It is not a human. it has a script. because it repeats the same tripe over and over without any verbal exchange with the users. This is, simply put, a troll bot. Since they only do this to make people angry, I can only assume, it has not attracted the attention of Cryptic's ban hammer, because it doesn't ask for money.
Meanwhile new players are restricted from;
- No ability to use the AD Exchange - No ability to perform in-person trades - No ability to send a mail message that contains items - No ability to post a message to Say, Trade, Zone, Guild, Alliance, and LFG chat - No ability to use “Say” in static zones - No ability to post on the Auction House
Until they finish the following "deeds";
Return of the Crown Six Quests; Finding Honor, The Trail of the Crown, Seeking a Suspect, The Dead Rats, Hot on the Trail, and Cornering Karzov.
The Tower District Eleven Quests; Saving the Guards, Ending the Torture, Lost Dispatch, Supply Recovery, Sewer Crawl, Bringing to Task, Returning the Pain, Conquest for Gruumsh, The Eyes Have It, Fists of the Warband, and Into the Cloak Tower
The Plague Tower Four Quests: Troubled Times, The Wizard's Folly, Spellburst, and The Plague Tower
Blackdagger Ruins Fifteen Quests; Hunting for a Harper, Lights on the Rocks, A Leaky Proposition, Salvaging Order, Savaging Salvagers, The Sea Caves, Seeking Goldseeker, The Hidden Cove, Hunting the Hunters, The Lost Caravan, Tracking Through Blood, The Hidden Mine, The Harper's Watch, Bloodying the Bandits, and Grimstorm Keep
At this point you are at least level 25 with still more to do, a big decision to make, and no one to ask. You must complete Neverdeath or get to level 31 and complete Helm's Hold. If you do Neverdeath, it will be at least 20 more quests and you will come out of the graveyard able to talk at level 32. If you skip the grave yard and choose Helm's Hold, it will be 20 more quests and you will now be able to talk at level 34.
Most new players are also doing the leveling dungeons and some are getting to 45 and higher before they can chat. Meanwhile I see people running guild ads for recruitment in Tower District, telling these fresh level 12 players to PM them in chat for an invite.
Good Luck
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greywyndMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 7,150Arc User
Graveyard: you get a bag from the Clockwork Tomb.
I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
Even if some didn't know it and do go seek it out after hearing it's a thing..
I didn't know it was a thing until it started to blow up. That made me curious as to what the exploit was and how to do it, even though I would not have engaged in it had I known how to do it before the current ban wave. My wife and I don't spend enough time in Barovia to have pugged hunts. As far as we know, no one in our alliance knew about it; if they did, they didn't say anything in alliance chat and, the few times we ran hunts with them, no one ever suggested doing this. Outside of running hunts with alliance members, we just two-manned them because then we could do them for as long (or short) as we wanted to and then move on to the next thing of interest.
Before playing Neverwinter, I played DDO. About 8 months or a year before I quit, there was a major item duplication exploit that Turbine (now Standing Stone Games) opted not to resolve for several months. I participated in that exploit heavily to generate things that I needed a lot of and yet were harder to get in the game because of the dearth of players running the relevant content. I did not catch a ban or any punishment for that (but I also did not sell or give away the items). The time, effort, and resources required to equip a character in Neverwinter is, to my perception, at least an order of magnitude more than required in DDO. Because of that, there is absolutely no way I would engage in an exploit in this game.
Anyway, my overall point is that I find hearing about exploits to be interesting and these things pique my curiosity. I just don't have sufficient curiosity to do this kind of testing on preview in order to be able to report them to Cryptic. I'm certainly not rolling any dice with my live account!
At times, I've thought some of the moderation is a little over the top regarding stuff when has made these forums boring. But on reflection, there is probably a fine line between a bit of stirring and when it starts building up to be online bullying (even if unintended). It's not an easy job and I don't envy any of the moderators.
I think we could have left the disagree button tho, removing that was imo a little over zealous. Surely we are allowed to disagree?
Discussion of moderation - zero tolerance comes across a bit HAMSTER like to me, but probably an issue of where do you draw the line.
Overall, I think the Mods do a good job.
of course you're allowed to disagree. by coherently writing your argument out instead of using the lazy button.
At times, I've thought some of the moderation is a little over the top regarding stuff when has made these forums boring. But on reflection, there is probably a fine line between a bit of stirring and when it starts building up to be online bullying (even if unintended). It's not an easy job and I don't envy any of the moderators.
I think we could have left the disagree button tho, removing that was imo a little over zealous. Surely we are allowed to disagree?
Discussion of moderation - zero tolerance comes across a bit HAMSTER like to me, but probably an issue of where do you draw the line.
Overall, I think the Mods do a good job.
of course you're allowed to disagree. by coherently writing your argument out instead of using the lazy button. Taking away the disagree button was the opposite of over moderation. it's encouraging discussion
same could be said for the agree button
maybe im just lazy (hence why no punctuation)
agreement IS simple. you agree what more is to be said. if you disagree there is a lot to be said. are you disagreeing just because you are mad at the other person and this is a good way to vent. Are you disagreeing because you actually disagree.. but do you disagree with point a, point b, point c. point d? and why do you disagree. is there something that could be improved on? there is a lot to talk about with disagree. nothing to talk about with agree.
Why can't someone just disagree? Why does it have to be justified or explained in detail?
And its OK if you disagree with my opinion, you don't need to write a paragraph to explain why. It is actually OK to disagree, its natural and its healthy as long as it isn't nasty.
Now people are using the "LOL" button in its place, I always used that when I thought someone said something funny, now that has been horribly twisted into something nasty that I did not intend.
I'm fine with it. if people want to make me out to be funny I take that as a huge compliment. they're padding out the one stat I take with some amount of pride. lol. I think it's very good the disagree button is gone. a person can still disagree without writing out a paragraph but do it silently. which is how it should be if they have nothing constructive to say about it or any kind of coherent argument. (which most do not.)
Comments
*sigh* People... Right... That is very important to be done. Maybe we made the account from the previous quote too?
This is exactly the kind of mindset causing issues.
Sci-fi author: The Gods We Make, The Gods We Seek, and Ji-min
For example I’ve always donated the excess gold from leadership to my guild, but now know to hoard that stuff like it’s, well, gold!
> Let me add that I fully agree with the OP. Here are a few thoughts that come to mind regarding some of the comments
>
> * Official discussion/acknowledgment of exploits is dicey. Even if it may seem "everyone" knows about a specific exploit, it's probable that many/most in fact do not. Discussing it in the official forum can make players curious, they may seek out the information, and end up exploiting (especially if the do get the sense that "everyone" is doing it).
>
> * People don't need alternative places to discuss the game unless they have been banned on the official forum, can't discuss in a civil manner, or want to talk about exploits. Criticism is welcome and encouraged when offered in a respectful manner (one of the foundry's in my signature is a criticism of some game decisions and they even made me a moderator). Having said that, it's welcome and healthy that there are other communities out there.
>
> * People who have been moderated tend to complain loudly about moderation. People who take note of moderation in a positive way are far less vocal. The vast majority of forum participants have no opinion about moderation. We try to explain and reason before issuing infraction points, and it takes a whole lot of breakdown in decorum for a player to be banned.
>
> * We used to have a Disagree button. It was removed because a subset of forum participants used it as a way to flame instead of to express genuine disagreement with a specific comment.
>
> * Moderators are all human. As such, we can make mistakes and we can interpret a specific post with regard to forum rules differently. We are all, however, copied on every moderation action and internally discuss when we have some disagreement. When a moderator is on the fence, they often reach out to other moderators for a second opinion before taking action.
>
> * Moderators are players, too. We don't like bugs or weak game systems. We want discussion of what's wrong with the game because we want the game to steadily improve over time.
1. Official discussion/acknowledgment of exploits is dicey. = Even when this can help avoid exploits / cheats? Also acknowledgment might lead to the developers even fixing said exploints? There is a reason bugs from code / security are published as a general practice to keep the software developers fixing them.
2. People don't need alternative places to discuss the game= Says the people that want to control the conversation. I think dictators have often preached something similar against free speech.
3. People who have been moderated tend to complain loudly about moderation.= Agree bad reviews get left way more often then positive. I agree with you. But I think the vast majority part is a stretch. so Agree to disagree?
4. We used to have a Disagree button.= Not sure why this should have been removed.
5. Moderators are all human. = Are you sure? .... j/k
6. Moderators are players, too. We don't like bugs or weak game systems. We want discussion of what's wrong with the game because we want the game to steadily improve over time. = As long is it is on our terms... is what this screams to me.
My two cents.
https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/comment/13034546
As for the other points you disagree on, yes we'll have to agree to disagree and that's fine.
Sci-fi author: The Gods We Make, The Gods We Seek, and Ji-min
Sci-fi author: The Gods We Make, The Gods We Seek, and Ji-min
In the game space, I'd put it differently. Is three months a reasonable time to expect a serious flaw to be fixed? Probably. What risk does a player face if the flaw isn't fixed? Well, they can still play the game in its flawed state or choose to take a break if it ruins the experience for them. The consequences aren't in the same league as the consequences of a security vulnerability.
So, in general terms I agree that three months should suffice to fix a serious flaw but disagree that the passage of time justifies sharing exploit details.
Sci-fi author: The Gods We Make, The Gods We Seek, and Ji-min
In our forums, we far more often discuss matters of opinion rather than matters of fact. In our context, I'm with you that clicking disagree doesn't provide much useful, actionable information.
Sci-fi author: The Gods We Make, The Gods We Seek, and Ji-min
Even if some didn't know it and do go seek it out after hearing it's a thing.. If there has been official communication that it shouldn't be done and that there will be consequences (And those consequences will be laid out) fewer people are likely to participate. I heard a lot of discussion as this was beginning and there was waffling. ppl weren't sure they should but the consensus was it was basically sanctioned as no action and no statement had been made thus far.
I do think a lot of people got trapped into this one. (and I am not speaking from sour grapes. I was never banned and I was too busy farming cr to be one of the bandwagon here) ppl were under the direct impression that this was known about and no one had got in trouble on pc. Also, other things along the same lines were never punished historically in this game. Couple that with no statement of acknowledgement from the game or threat of consequences, so the general feeling was, OPEN SEASON!! If there had been clear communication that it was known, a fix was in the works and ppl WOULD BE BANNED and ad reset.. I honestly think it would not have been the problem it is today.
Communicating that there is a exploit has the potential to make people aware of a exploit than silence, true.. but Silence on the matter is far more likely to act as an "OK, go have fun", in my opinion, to the average person. More people are on the side of good than bad. As a mod you really need to be coming at it from that angle than assuming everyone is bad. This is just a game we're talking about. Silence is basically an ok to game the system to many. We play by the rules but in the lack of stated rules isn't it ok to make our own?
Isn't there a long tradition in gaming of making rules to suit individual playstyle and to have fun that way?
I think a lot of people were just told what to do when they got invited to a party and did it.. because that's how social systems work. you do what the party leader says. (let's not go into would you jump off a bridge, i think a significant amount would. lol) I heard a lot of people justify it that there had been no one telling them not to so nothing bad would happen. (again we are talking in the confines of a game, not actual bridges or life altering situations)
Cheating in a game doesn't mean someone is a bad person. Be honest, have you really gotten thru a game of monopoly without at least one person cheating? LOL. It's a long standing tradition of gamers to game the system however they can.. so it can't be shocking when it happens in a game especially when it requires zero effort and the overwhelming thought is there will be no consequences?
If people are told it's bad!!! there will be consequences!!!! this this and this.. More will refrain than go forward and the ones who would go forward are gonna do it anyway. I also think that everyone who actually takes the time to come to the forums is gonna know about it already. they were probably driven to the forums by the many talks of glitch runs in game chat. from what i understand the majority of hunts being advertised were glitch runs even if they didn't state it.
Communication is good. Silence on things like this is VERY VERY VERY BAD..
such a large population was affected that how something like this is treated affects the game.
Communication helps. Expectations must be set.
It's like telling people the rules after the fact. Common sense is a thing, true. But we're talking about gaming rules here. Gaming rules are different than real life rules. People will play by the rules of the game given to them and if there are no rules they make up their own.
In real life, most people know the rules and they know the consequences.. and they are real and life altering so they're not gonna do bad things. game rules are safe. your real life will never be affected. your freedoms will not be affected. so people can get that thrill of taking risks they wouldn't really take in real life. but they'll still try to adhere to the rules if they are given them. you'll always get monopoly cheaters.. but it's usually 1 person out of 10 instead of 8/10 which is what we had here. because in this version of monopoly without any posted rules it was ok to jump off a bridge.
Cheers all!
Guild--And the Imaginary Friends
Thanks for the post. While I'm really on the same page as for the "emotional" feedback being really hard to withstand (hell, sometimes I may loose it and write something stupid here when irritated) but overall my response to you is: you guys asked for it yourselves..
Please mind, that this forum has not so many active users. Most of the players just play the game cause they don't feel like attending forums is important. Yet, there is a growing frustration in the community and it's pointed towards Cryptic and the people behind the game. New accounts are being opened on this forums just to show how frustrated people are.
And it's not like we are not reaching the hand towards you guys. Cause we do.
And I also understand that you guys are really busy working, but the negativity that's starting to overflowing the game is mostly behind the absolute lack of the responses to community, failure in communication and that's only showing the lack of respect for the players.
Players are not feeling respected. What kind of disrespect am I talking about?
- The game is full of bugs being there for ages. We never get any real answer on time of the fix. Every time I see "it's on our radar" I think that a cute panda bear dies somewhere.
- The way you guys handled huntgate. It's just disgusting. People don't care it's Perfect World. You guys work together under the banner of Neverwinter and you are considered one. The fact that you are saying "it's not us it's them" makes it so unprofessional that I am disgusted. While I wasn't even touched by whole this mess, as an observator from the side I think this could be handled much more in a professional way.
- The way you guys are handling prolonging maintenences. That's just scandalous. I, my friends, we all get it may take more time. But the way you guys are communicating it is just... I don't have words. Updates that it will take few hours more 5 mins after the primarily scheduled time? You seriously didn't knew until the very end that it will take few more hours?
EDIT: Also, on the sidenote - it's literally blowing my mind that you don't have any QA people. The fact that this studio's tests rely purely on what will players find on the test server is just above my imagination.
I may point many, many things more here. But I think you get the point. The amount of disrespect is showed to the community is not something that will stay unnoticed by the community. There's a saying in my country "Whoever sows the wind then collects the storm". And that storm is starting to coming at you guys. It's up to you what you want to do with it.
I also want this forums to be less toxic than it is. If there's anything we can do to help you guys - I think most of us will gladly do this.
But the toxicity and the way people are exposing their feeling here is because of the growing frustration. And that's something that needs to be addressed by the team.
I don't think people are having issues with how this forums is being moderated. So far I think everyone here from the mod team is doing fairly good job.
As for the maintenence - I already said it, that it's not about the fact that it took longer. I get that, these kinds of things happen. I just don't like how it is communicated by you guys. I do not belive that team always finds out 5mins after scheduled time that it will take few more hours. It's about how it was said to people.
This is like you wrote an aspect of prioritization, the game suffers, imo, from a failure in telemetry, data analysis is slow to non existent and the reaction is even slower.
The parallel of the issue and solution will be an infection, treat it fast and you are back on your feet in no time, let it fester, and the amputation will be much much more painful and with much more lasting results.
A computer game doesn't need the same cycle that hardware, life critical, or OSs needed. When an issue is found even without clear reproduction steps, telemetry can be inserted in the proper places, in a week it gives the correct details, and in two it can be fixed. Three months is perhaps valid for extremely large and complex software that affects multi millions of users, validation process for firmware, microcode, OSs is not simple, and the results can be extremely critical even loss of life.
In games, the constrains and expectations are different, we expect to see much more rapid deployment cycles but willing to accept larger number of various bugs due to ongoing addition of content.
Can I / Should I take a break when someone uses resonators to destroy the economy, and inflate the prices to high heaven for something I'm grinding my HAMSTER off to get?
Should I take a break when in mod6 I'm spending countless hours to get those T2 done, learn the mechanics and improve, while a group can just pull the boss through the barrier and be done with it ?
Indeed the consequences are not in the same league, but considering them in the scope of the game, and the time it takes to fix and roll the fix is also not on the same league.
Back to the more original idea, if the trade offs are worth it? The chance more people are exposed to exploits, and the devs are 'forced' to prioritize the fixes?
There are many implications to allowing exploits to remain in game without a fix nor timely reaction.
As in the infection / amputation example, and further examples like the Broken windows theory, effectiveness of an effect in relation in time to the cause, or the creation of consensus of what allowed, negligence and shared responsibility with lack of enforcement and a lot more topics. It is probably not the place to discuss those, unfortunately.
Is it 100% assured that discussion will be better than the current situation? Ofc not. But the fact is that the current situation has a lot to be improved upon. Any change is a risk, but at the current state of things, IMO,
information is a tool and with some thought and proper 'process' it is possible to use it to improve things, or on the other hand deteriorate things further.
Just to clarify, the above is not to take away from the personal responsibility of a anyone to their actions, but there are long studied expected behaviors and methods that can be applied to encourage positive and discourage negative. Humanity is not at the state where we can just let-go of all policing aspects.
Second thing, is that in discussion about exploits, in no way the idea is public reproduction steps, those should always be private until a fix introduced.
And its OK if you disagree with my opinion, you don't need to write a paragraph to explain why. It is actually OK to disagree, its natural and its healthy as long as it isn't nasty.
Now people are using the "LOL" button in its place, I always used that when I thought someone said something funny, now that has been horribly twisted into something nasty that I did not intend.
In some cases, "respectful manner" taken to an unreasonable extreme, or because imaginary insults, or not sugar coated enough feedback. I'm sorry, but constructive criticisms definition doesn't dictate to add lies to make it sound better..
Moderators afraid to counter balance / stand against some requests even if come from "above".
(I don't remember if you were a mod back then, but feel free to check why I was shadowbanned once for a good example of what I'm talking about)
Debates closed because moderators do not have the time or "man power" to actually read them.
Threads merged into incoherence to again ease up moderation.
Many people found alternatives not because they were banned, or uncivil, or want to discuss exploits, or because they want to be rude. Ofc some did because some of the above, and some because of all of the above, but this is not the majority.
Look at the class sub-sections here, and go check class discords, or facebooks. Which are moderated too btw.
The main reason people still come here is because the devs are here and there is that slim slim hope that their feedback will be heard, or argue against some of those suggestions..
And some just leave. There are no longer, vast majority here or there, we are years post that. Now there are several dozen regulars arguing about the same things, and I'm sure most have an opinion about moderation.
There is also this fun aspect of shadow bans, where due process is forgotten. In some cases personally I'm glad, like there is a recent one, but in general is it a good thing to do? IMO no. Making mistakes is more than understandable, but the question is what happens after, what was improved, what conclusions, or how may times even a mistake was admitted ? Some are, but some are not at all.
I'm of the opinion that devs shouldn't spend day and night in the game, it's their job to dev, and not to play. Yet they should have the tools and capability to get the information needed and analyze it to make decisions (In specific case of NW I've touched that in previous post)
In the case of moderators I do believe that a moderator that didn't login into the game for months and months shouldn't moderate. It does not mean that a moderator should be BiS, nor it should be the main criteria, but someone who is 4 mods behind is not an ideal candidate, nor obviously have the time.
BTW The original criteria of knowledge of D&D lore is dumbfounding. I do believe that no one intends a malicious intent, and while many disagree on the "how", at the end most want the game to succeed. But as the proverb says "The road to hell is paved with good intentions", good intentions are not a reason to not change things, improve, adjust, or accountability.
PS: while I quoted Trips for the topics and address those, I do not mean it specifically addressed to him/you.
I could be disagreeing just because I don't like you, but it's easy, I don't have to explain myself, so I just click a button.
I could disagree with the justified part.
I could disagree with the LOL part.
In essence simply clicking disagree without anything else is taking the other person ability to respond, and in a way nasty on it's own.
Akin to:
I do agree on the LOL btw, people misuse and abuse it and it's a shame..
> Thanks for your efforts. As newest moderator I'd wager you're also the most positive / optimistic.
>
> Here's the problem: the devs, studio, and community team set the volunteer mods up for a bad time. In essence, they don't invest in community relations very well, make ruthless / brutal customer service decisions, and use the goodwill of the mods to clean up the repeated blowback, asking you to filter through awful bile and vitriol in the process.
>
> That's not fair to you. They are burning up your positive energy through lack of proper action and customer support mentality. And in part through insistence on a certain approach to moderation, they paint a target squarely on the volunteer mods to seem like shills when all you're trying to do is enforce a positive discourse.
>
> I agree that in some optimistic utopia, the problem could be solved as you describe, through collective positivity on the side of the community... building understanding and ownership over the game.
>
> The problem is that we can't get there from where we are today. And that's not your fault. And I doubt there's much you can do to even send that message up the chain.
>
> You have my sincerest sympathies.
+1
Meanwhile new players are restricted from;
- No ability to use the AD Exchange
- No ability to perform in-person trades
- No ability to send a mail message that contains items
- No ability to post a message to Say, Trade, Zone, Guild, Alliance, and LFG chat
- No ability to use “Say” in static zones
- No ability to post on the Auction House
Until they finish the following "deeds";
Return of the Crown
Six Quests; Finding Honor, The Trail of the Crown, Seeking a Suspect, The Dead Rats, Hot on the Trail, and Cornering Karzov.
The Tower District
Eleven Quests; Saving the Guards, Ending the Torture, Lost Dispatch, Supply Recovery, Sewer Crawl, Bringing to Task, Returning the Pain, Conquest for Gruumsh, The Eyes Have It, Fists of the Warband, and Into the Cloak Tower
The Plague Tower
Four Quests: Troubled Times, The Wizard's Folly, Spellburst, and The Plague Tower
Blackdagger Ruins
Fifteen Quests; Hunting for a Harper, Lights on the Rocks, A Leaky Proposition, Salvaging Order, Savaging Salvagers, The Sea Caves, Seeking Goldseeker, The Hidden Cove, Hunting the Hunters, The Lost Caravan, Tracking Through Blood, The Hidden Mine, The Harper's Watch, Bloodying the Bandits, and Grimstorm Keep
At this point you are at least level 25 with still more to do, a big decision to make, and no one to ask. You must complete Neverdeath or get to level 31 and complete Helm's Hold. If you do Neverdeath, it will be at least 20 more quests and you will come out of the graveyard able to talk at level 32. If you skip the grave yard and choose Helm's Hold, it will be 20 more quests and you will now be able to talk at level 34.
Most new players are also doing the leveling dungeons and some are getting to 45 and higher before they can chat. Meanwhile I see people running guild ads for recruitment in Tower District, telling these fresh level 12 players to PM them in chat for an invite.
Good Luck
Before playing Neverwinter, I played DDO. About 8 months or a year before I quit, there was a major item duplication exploit that Turbine (now Standing Stone Games) opted not to resolve for several months. I participated in that exploit heavily to generate things that I needed a lot of and yet were harder to get in the game because of the dearth of players running the relevant content. I did not catch a ban or any punishment for that (but I also did not sell or give away the items). The time, effort, and resources required to equip a character in Neverwinter is, to my perception, at least an order of magnitude more than required in DDO. Because of that, there is absolutely no way I would engage in an exploit in this game.
Anyway, my overall point is that I find hearing about exploits to be interesting and these things pique my curiosity. I just don't have sufficient curiosity to do this kind of testing on preview in order to be able to report them to Cryptic. I'm certainly not rolling any dice with my live account!