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Why are none of the dungeons hard anymore?

rockkk52rockkk52 Posts: 10Member Arc User
I have seen some posts on the forums and in game asking why tier 3 content especially fbi and msp are so hard. Some are even calling for nerfs. I fall into the opposite camp. I want harder content. Fbi and msp can be done in a party of 2 without scrolls if the tank and dps are high geared and exped. I have long thought the gear needs balancing in relation to the dungeon content. In other mmo games most end game cant be done except with an optimal party and end game gear. This has not been the case for Neverwinter the last 2 mods. I have cleared end game on a sub geared pally almost from unlock. So i guess my main point is I would like to see some more dungeons made like fbi or msp. Mech intensive (well sort of). For me their needs to be harder content or the gear should be lowered.
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Comments

  • zacoria1405zacoria1405 Posts: 224Member Arc User
    I agree, no need for nerfs, people just need to work a bit harder on their gear and build and develop their characters properly. I'm really enjoying the tough challenge of Castle Ravenloft with my guild mates and working out ways for us all to improve and be better players to beat it. The devs have made primal armour and weapons easy to obtain now so I dont see why T3 content should be nerfed to simply accommodate players who arent prepared to make the effort to conquer such content.
  • cilginordekcilginordek Posts: 417Member Arc User
    Dungeons are fine, it's the player characters that are too strong. Those complaints you hear are from not so strong player characters.
  • lldtlldt Posts: 174Member Arc User
    edited September 13
    rockkk52 said:

    pally

    I agree with your comment about gear. This game's gear + buffs/debuffs are out of whack. For a good group, everything is too easy, but they can't make things much harder because the difference between a well-geared, "meta" group and one that isn't is literally of an order of magnitude. And I hate to say this, but the OP class right now is a major factor in making content too easy (just like DC AA did at one time)

    There's no need to nerf any content, but the random advanced queue is messed up. It has a very easy 10-man (demo) mixed with much harder 5-man (FBI/MSP), so its ilvl is too low. That's the reason why you are hearing these complaints.




    Post edited by lldt on
  • helric9helric9 Posts: 57Member Arc User
    I agree with the OP. We need tougher and longer dungeon with more complex mechanisms.
    Dungeon with more boss and also with more complex and hard trash mobs too, because except fbi giants no trash are really dangerous.
    After reading nerf treahd it's time to ask for more difficulty !
  • kvetkvet Posts: 2,473Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited September 13
    All dungeons need randomization - not randomly 1 of 3 possible paths, but actual randomization. Mobs spawn near players randomly. Traps reposition themselves in random locations around the dungeon. Walls randomly change configuration (again, not in some options A, B, or C method, but truely random). Basically, dungeons that are never the same way twice.

    This would make the playing experience much more interesting for one, but also (and more importantly) go a long way toward dealing with bots as well. Basically think of it as CAPTCHA that hides in plain site and pretends to be game content. It would also promote teams staying together... if that 17K GWF runs ahead and leaves the 12k guy behind and a pack of mobs spawn behind the last player who gets killed because he couldn't keep up with the speed runner, there's going to be problems. Never leave your wingman.
  • lldtlldt Posts: 174Member Arc User
    edited September 13
    helric9 said:

    I agree with the OP. We need tougher and longer dungeon with more complex mechanisms.

    When they do put in mechanics like CODG push/pull, people whine endlessly about it. We do have to face the fact that NW is a very casual MMO. Maybe I haven't played enough MMOs to say with authority, but NW is by far the most casual I've ever played.

    Post edited by lldt on
  • malheur2080malheur2080 Posts: 37Member Arc User
    or just nerf all powershare and buffs
  • helric9helric9 Posts: 57Member Arc User
    edited September 13
    lldt said:

    helric9 said:

    I agree with the OP. We need tougher and longer dungeon with more complex mechanisms.

    When they do put in tougher mechanics like in CODG, people whine endlessly about it. We do have to face the fact that NW is a very casual MMO. Maybe I haven't played enough MMOs to say with authority, but NW is by far the most casual I've ever played.

    Yes you right but controle/immune mechanisms are not the only option to make harder content.
    For game who have alot of problems with lag and server stability this kind of mechanisms maybe are not the best choice anyway.

    or just nerf all powershare and buffs

    Let's do both !
  • lldtlldt Posts: 174Member Arc User
    edited September 13
    NW was made with consoles in mind and to target casuals. Those two things fit together (consoles = less buttons). In other MMOs:

    - Your latency is too high and therefore you can't dps enough to get a reward? Too bad
    - PVP is geared equalized and you don't have the skill to compete? Too bad
    - You didn't play enough to learn boss telegraphs? Too bad
    - Attacks too quick for your latency? Too bad

    Here, almost every attack has a big red warning for 3 or more seconds. You can only slot a small subset of your powers, so there isn't a system of appropriate/best counters to a specific circumstance/attack.

    Combined all of this with overpowered buffs/debuffs, I really don't think it is realistic to believe difficulty will ever be any different.

    *EDIT: I should note that I like that NW is so casual. In my younger days without a family, I would have preferred those other MMOs, but not now.
    Post edited by lldt on
  • instynctiveinstynctive Posts: 1,885Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    > @kvet said:
    > All dungeons need randomization - not randomly 1 of 3 possible paths, but actual randomization. Mobs spawn near players randomly. Traps reposition themselves in random locations around the dungeon. Walls randomly change configuration (again, not in some options A, B, or C method, but truely random). Basically, dungeons that are never the same way twice.
    >
    > This would make the playing experience much more interesting for one, but also (and more importantly) go a long way toward dealing with bots as well. Basically think of it as CAPTCHA that hides in plain site and pretends to be game content. It would also promote teams staying together... if that 17K GWF runs ahead and leaves the 12k guy behind and a pack of mobs spawn behind the last player who gets killed because he couldn't keep up with the speed runner, there's going to be problems. Never leave your wingman.

    In addition to the randomization (Diablo does it, update the engine to let NW do it), dungeon difficulty should scale to players' ilvl, and rewards scaled appropriately.

    Simple solutions.
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    "...I grab my wiener and charge!" - ironzerg79
  • helric9helric9 Posts: 57Member Arc User
    edited September 13
    This is a good solution, which is already used in most mmo games.
    All players will have acces at all the content but the endgamers can target high difficulty for better reward.
    Everyone happy ?

  • malheur2080malheur2080 Posts: 37Member Arc User
    Do you know what happened when they came up with this random rifts in diablo? Everybody started fishing to get the fastest road and the best enemies and the server ping went to the sky for all players and Diablo is a 2d game. If you apply such a system to this game with all the bugs and skill effects, the servers will fall asleep.
  • helric9helric9 Posts: 57Member Arc User
    edited September 13

    Do you know what happened when they came up with this random rifts in diablo? Everybody started fishing to get the fastest road and the best enemies and the server ping went to the sky for all players and Diablo is a 2d game. If you apply such a system to this game with all the bugs and skill effects, the servers will fall asleep.

    Hard to compare 2 differents types of game, Diablo is not a mmo. Orange or apple ?
    If we have to compare, better to do it with Wow who have this system of different difficulties for the same dungeon/raid.
    I am not saying that it is a perfect solution, because there is also a negative side.
    But dungeons with scaling diffuculties/rewards works very well on fews mmo i tried.
  • stark760stark760 Posts: 110Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    The dungeons aren't as "hard" because the gear being introduced is too strong. For instance, the 480 fured kiono(or however spelled), has 10k less HP than the 550 IL Barovian chest(28k vs 38k). In older mods, the amount of gain from the newer armor was small in comparison. Also, all players can grind seals and get primal gear easily now. with campaign boons and guild boons, it's too much.
  • malheur2080malheur2080 Posts: 37Member Arc User
    sorry i wasn't talking about the difficulties.
    this
    Walls randomly change configuration (again, not in some options A, B, or C method, but truely random). Basically, dungeons that are never the same way twice.
  • auron#6793 auron Posts: 109Member Arc User
    not everyone likes playing with a huge group either. I prefer solo play or one or two others to a massive group. any more than 5 players on the screen and it lags like heck
    AKA Draconis of Luskan
  • avenfellavenfell Posts: 33Member Arc User
    edited September 13
    If you want 45 minute 1HKO, oversaturated mechanic fights with 18 dps checks go play FFXIV. You are by far the minority on this topic.

    If you spend any time in the RaQ you will see the vast majority of this game is frozen in time at 11k item level. MSP, FBI, CoDG, and CR are all over-tuned or still bugged for the majority of the games actual player base.

    I'm 15,987 ilv on my main and I cant even get through FBI or MSP in the RaQ as things stand currently, let alone farm CODG. I am glad you are some super skilled twitchy 18k power house but most people arent, we play video games to have fun, not get wrecked and throw stuff in rl.
    16k+ Combat HR
  • thefinger#4816 thefinger Posts: 4Member Arc User
    I have always thought it as a good idea if the devs had a seperate server with identical copies of the dungeons and skirmishes. The server A will have over 10x castleravenloft dungeon difficulty for the players wanting more challenge and server B should be for the rest of us 99%. :#
  • yperkeimenosyperkeimenos Posts: 307Member Arc User
    edited September 13
    Fully agree with everyone here, increase difficulty of dungeons/skirmishes/trials by a factor of x3 so that everyone needs to be 18k gs to complete it, because it's too easy and can be done even by a blindfolded toddler. Also increase level cap from 70 to 80 , bring back the hourly vigilance quests and the 8k daily astral diamonds refining cap. Finally double the time it takes to complete the various campaigns because one, two or more months of completion time is too fast and reduce the drop rate of refinement items by half, because they drop like candy. When you do all this and everything else "hardcore" players ask for then please make a public statement of how many players are left in the game because i'm curious to see how many masochists play it. If there are any left you can then turn Neverwinter into a subscription based model ,because if anyone can put up with all that, then they've proven their dedication and will pay for anything.
    It's BUGS bunny i tell you.
  • ragequittingdc#8599 ragequittingdc Posts: 206Member Arc User
    edited September 13
    this thread has me questioning what's the toughest combination of cards in barovia hunts and what team comp can best complete it? there's alot of answers in those cards to the question of how to improve difficulty for the bis exp playerbase imo, or even for the slightly more casual player.
    im actually the gwf carry
  • stark760stark760 Posts: 110Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User

    this thread has me questioning what's the toughest combination of cards in barovia hunts and what team comp can best complete it? there's alot of answers in those cards to the question of how to improve difficulty for the bis exp playerbase imo, or even for the slightly more casual player.

    play the donjon, with the 1/2 power/def, and anything else hard(no daily, artifact, ghost on death, or extra damage)...good luck.
  • lldtlldt Posts: 174Member Arc User
    edited September 13

    dungeon difficulty should scale to players' ilvl, and rewards scaled appropriately.



    Simple solutions.

    The concept is simple, but ilvl isn't perfect and this would further stratify players (groups of 18k+ together, etc.), so this requires careful consideration and tuning.

    Dungeon randomization does little for making more difficult or fun here. And randomization for a isometric top down view like D3 is different. Having things either look cookie cutter / lego (too simple) or weird collisions/seaming (current complexity/textures) from the randomization is just not worth it for the small payoff.

  • joon352joon352 Posts: 1Member Arc User
    The simple fix in my book, and of which I have seen in other MMO's, is to include an option for parties to increase difficulty. This can be included not only for groups but for single player content also. Could be as simple as checked box for normal, intermediate, advanced and expert. This may affect things such as limiting player buff/debut duration, effectiveness or increase in enemy mob strength. There are a number of easy fixes that could/would create a variety to each dungeon, without changing massive amounts of code for added mechanics and such. just my two cents.
  • rockkk52rockkk52 Posts: 10Member Arc User
    My pally is 14k and my warlock is 15.7k. For anyone who says one needs to be 18k to end game its laughable. Get better skilled or learn the dungeons. Even CR is mediocre. I play to accomplish something not faceroll like a child. I understand there are individuals who love handouts. I hate them. So maybe cryptic should nerf the harder dungeons for the those who lack the skill to do them as they currently stand. But i suggest getting good.
  • sandukutupusandukutupu Posts: 672Member Arc User
    edited September 13
    To any player saying the dungeons are "too easy" then what is stopping you from taking off your armor or swapping out your weapons to make it more of a challenge? If I run Cloak Tower all purple armor and an orange companion and mount, I am going to walk all over the top of that dungeon. If I swap my armor out for common and jump in as 3K, it won't be so simple. I submit YOU are in control of the difficulty of anything you do within the game.
    rockkk52 said:

    My pally is 14k and my warlock is 15.7k. For anyone who says one needs to be 18k to end game its laughable. ....

    So stop laughing and run a 9K through. You can get into a 13K then drop your item level as low as you like.
    zorg_siggy.png
  • tom#6998 tom Posts: 507Member Arc User
    > @sandukutupu said:
    > To any player saying the dungeons are "too easy" then what is stopping you from taking off your armor or swapping out your weapons to make it more of a challenge? If I run Cloak Tower all purple armor and an orange companion and mount, I am going to walk all over the top of that dungeon. If I swap my armor out for common and jump in as 3K, it won't be so simple. I submit YOU are in control of the difficulty of anything you do within the game. My pally is 14k and my warlock is 15.7k. For anyone who says one needs to be 18k to end game its laughable. ....
    >
    > So stop laughing and run a 9K through. You can get into a 13K then drop your item level as low as you like.

    Nothing is stoping us... in fact we are already doing that. Me and some players in my guild run stuff quite regularly without gear/pets etc just to make it interesting. But it kinda makes the hole Gear progression pointless, so id prever it if there would be some dungeons where u need to optimize your eqip and playstile instead of stripping naked to get a challange.
  • jade1280jade1280 Posts: 144Member Arc User
    Soooo you want more storm giants basically?
  • wizardlvl80#5963 wizardlvl80 Posts: 495Member Arc User
    edited September 14
    rockkk52 said:

    My pally is 14k and my warlock is 15.7k. For anyone who says one needs to be 18k to end game its laughable. Get better skilled or learn the dungeons. Even CR is mediocre. I play to accomplish something not faceroll like a child. I understand there are individuals who love handouts. I hate them. So maybe cryptic should nerf the harder dungeons for the those who lack the skill to do them as they currently stand. But i suggest getting good.

    Play pally -> tell people they should work on their skill.

    Actually, the fact that you have 14k paladin capable of running end game content just proves that you are playing the game on easy-mode mister afkadin.

    I'm not bashing the class - it's pretty cool. But it's commonly known as by far the easiest one to play.


    EDIT: I bet that your whole CR party is 14k and you don't run the meta parties with one dps and four buffs. Cause hell, you're not the handout player - you hate them ;)
  • namelesshero347namelesshero347 Posts: 1,593Member Arc User
    rockkk52 said:

    I have cleared end game on a sub geared pally almost from unlock

    You should roll a GF for more challenge. I've seen many 15/16K GFs struggle on last boss in ToNG. After many tries they give up and leave. Then a 13K OP comes in and it's a done deal on first try. OP = ez-tank mode
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