MoF vs SS - what's the difference now?

kvet

Hi all, I've been away from the game for a long time and having been back about a month one thing I've found a lot of is that parties get very annoyed at CWs running Spellstorm and say they want MoF for their buff/debuff abilities instead.

I've gone through builds and I'm a little confused. Smolder is a DoT effect. Yes, there are a few MoF feats/powers that add some increased damage related to Smolder, but other than Combustive Action, I don't see any particular buffs or debuff that a MoF can do that are not also available to an SS, whereas an SS also has a lot of fairly good DPS abilities over MoF.

So.... other than Combustive Action (which appears to be fairly minor... no?), why is everyone so keen on MoF and so down on SS? All the other feats (Controlled Momentum, Chaos Magic, etc) are available for both paths so the vast bulk of buff/debuff potential is available for either type of CW... so what's the deal here? What am I missing?

vordayn

Swathe of Destruction debuffs by 20%.
Combustive Action debuffs by 24%.

Spellstorm mages have no debuffs unique to them.

In terms of damage, SS has burst damage, but MoF has sustained damage which also benefits the whole team. The marginal DPS improvement you may have with SS > MoF is outweighed by the party-wide debuff that MoF provides.

I find the Hybrid MoF (Swathe + Chilling Presence) the best in terms of personal damage, debuff and overall party DPS.

If you have a MoF in your party, the SS's damage will also improve due to rimefire. Hence, that is probably the only time I will spec to SS in end-game parties. For trash-clearing, even though SS is probably faster, it doesn't matter as trash dies quickly.

pitshade

Most people aren't clear on what any class offers to a group, tbh. They form cookie cutter parties and frequently outdated or just wrong ideas, like specifying a Tactician GF rather than a GF tank.

Using loadouts, a CW should be Spellstorm during trash clears to take advantage of burst damage from the Storm Spell class feature. Against bosses, who generally live long enough for it to matter, go Master of Flame to apply the Smoulder DoT and with it Swath of Destruction debuff.

Either build should probably be Oppressor since there was a significant buff to the capstone damage on m14 and very importantly, to get the instance wide 10% damage buff from Controlled Momentum.

People think that CW's support build is Renegade but those buffs are wasted on an endgame team where only 1 of 3 Chaos Magic procs help and Combat Advantage is likely coming from some other source.

nunya

Thank you, @vordayn and @pitshade! I've been wanting to spend some time figuring out why I hate my CW so much. You've given me an avenue to explore in making it better!

kvet

@vordayn thanks for the numbers, that definitely isn't insignificant, so I can see the attraction there. I've been trying out some things with a MoF build and I've found really good success slotting swath and combustive action and using Furious Immolation daily (both to take advantage of the Twisting Immolation feat).

@pitshade - your advice on using SS on approach and MoF vs bosses is kind of what I was thinking - though most teams complain at me if I'm not running MoF the whole time.

I still feel like my SS works better solo though, but this MoF build is pretty close.

pitshade

In a decent team, you may not bother changing loadouts between bosses and stay MoF the whole time. It isn't optimal but given the lack of campfires really doesn't cost you time. Ultimately, it goes back to my first point, people often don't know what is best and ask for the wrong things.

I still run SS Thaum for solo content. The damage is about the same and there isn't a reason to worry about party utility.

lukejones77

kvet said:

Hi all, I've been away from the game for a long time and having been back about a month one thing I've found a lot of is that parties get very annoyed at CWs running Spellstorm and say they want MoF for their buff/debuff abilities instead.

I've gone through builds and I'm a little confused. Smolder is a DoT effect. Yes, there are a few MoF feats/powers that add some increased damage related to Smolder, but other than Combustive Action, I don't see any particular buffs or debuff that a MoF can do that are not also available to an SS, whereas an SS also has a lot of fairly good DPS abilities over MoF.

So.... other than Combustive Action (which appears to be fairly minor... no?), why is everyone so keen on MoF and so down on SS? All the other feats (Controlled Momentum, Chaos Magic, etc) are available for both paths so the vast bulk of buff/debuff potential is available for either type of CW... so what's the deal here? What am I missing?

Your fundamental problem is that the CW does poor damage compared to the other DPS classes.
It's also not a particularly good class for buffing support, but if they're going to take you, this is where you have something to offer. The MoF buffs might not seem like much, but in the Multiplicative Era,they add up (or rather multiply out).
If it's easy T2 content, nobody cares, and you'll most often find a fast DPS like GWF or TR running ahead and smashing the run anyway, but if it's harder new content, your class is barely tolerated.

SWs have had a better time if things of late with good utility, and TRs have seen a very significant boost - leaving you as the standout bad DPS class.
Sorry, but the average CW should not be expecting a decent gaming experience if not looked after by friends. If you're like me, and don't consider being after by friends a decent gaming experience - you're out of luck.

kriptical1

Grouping aside, it’s kinda like this. My Ss opp build does trash(spawn camping) about 10-15% faster than my MoF opp build. However if Rex fangs are needed then my MoF puts the rex down about the same amount faster..maybe a little better and with better control( can keep him mostly on the ground solo). Horses for courses..

lukejones77

kriptical1 said:

Grouping aside, it’s kinda like this. My Ss opp build does trash(spawn camping) about 10-15% faster than my MoF opp build. However if Rex fangs are needed then my MoF puts the rex down about the same amount faster..maybe a little better and with better control( can keep him mostly on the ground solo). Horses for courses..

Yeah, but the post is all about grouping - what the group is looking for and party annoyance.
Parties only care when they run new end-game content, and the picture there is pretty bleak.

It was bleak enough when you hoped that a strong "meta" might be inclined to take on a TR, SW or CW.
Now, CW is real rock-bottom by it's lonesome.

kvet

Sort of a sad state of affairs having played NW from it’s earliest days when really all you needed was CW, all other classes were unimportant.... oh for the days of unlimited no-CD EotS and no cap Singularity

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constantmule

i pretty much just say SS and rarely have any issues honestly. i find it much harder to be top DPS now compared to old mods but not so much that i worry about having loadouts and different gear sets etc.

maybe you are just unlucky? i have maybe had one or two complaints in like 5 months. i usually ignore those people or laugh at them for being overly serious about an MMO and recommend they play a single player rpg so they can spec a party to their liking

quickfoot

I've ran CR a few times as primary dps and did just fine, just need a good party supporting you (I.E. OP w/ AoC, DC-AC Exalting you, someone providing CA, and other buffs/debuffs). The only problem I had was getting used to using the sun sword at the end, and at that note I think I did more damage w/o it tbh, and next time would prolly like someone else to use it.

The dungeon also matters a lot too, CR is good for a single target loadout for dps as the bosses are all single target and the mobs aren't too hard anyways as long as the tank can tank. If you're running T1-T2 content w/ a GWF or other DPS class that can run fast or otherwise get ahead of the party, of course they're going to get top paingiver status, but you would need to look at the ACT to see who was most effective at the boss fights.

CW's have seen some nerfs last few mods, but I think it's a misconception to think that the class sucks. I've run tong w/ other CW's and they have been really good runs, some of the best actually. W/ 1 running CP and Swath and the other CP and CA or one as MoF and the other as SS, one as Opp and the other as Rene, 2 CW's can provide a really good synergy for each other and the party.

As a side note, if spec'd right w/ the new Apocalypse set, a Dread enchant, and Vanguard Banner, a SS/Opp CW can provide a 20-30% debuff on mobs, about the same as a MoF running Swath.

pitmonster

The problem with Control Wizards is that they have control over nothing and are themselves controlled. The whole class either needs a rework of the mechanics of endgame fights need a rework.

sandukutupu

I don't fret and worry about the math. I have always felt that no matter what you choose, you end up with a basic ICE elementalist with other powers as well. Master of the Flame should be about FIRE and not ICE. How about EARTH and AIR??? I believe this is the reason; someone at Cryptic thought Vanilla Ice was so cool in "Cool as Ice" and didn't bother to work on the other elements.

MoF should focus on fire and earth, SS should be about ice and air. Better yet offer 4 separate paths fire, earth, air, and water (aka ice). Again I don't care about math just appearance. I am a woman and buy my car based on color and cuteness, not DPS and all that other junk. I agree they need to repair this class but they need to make it look good too!

quickfoot

pitmonster#5684 said:

The problem with Control Wizards is that they have control over nothing and are themselves controlled. The whole class either needs a rework of the mechanics of endgame fights need a rework.

This is kind of an issue, but there are ways around it. GWF's have unstoppable, TR's have ITC, GF's have Villain's Menace and shift, OP's have Heroism and shift. SW's and HR's have the same issue. One thing CW's have is Shield on Spell Mastery which adds 20% control resist, but no one really uses it when they're serious about dps and support usually putting RoE on tab for boss fights myself.

Now, of course you can always stack control resistance, wisdom, and use pets that add cc resist like the Sylph and Willow Wisp, or use Oghma's Token of Free Movement, which does remove Partial Paralysis. Also, Elven Battle Enchantment helps a lot for certain CC's.

Now, we do have control over some things, and in content after mod 13 the freezing seems to work better, along with knockbacks (eww). A lot of people underestimate how useful CC'ing stuff is, it can make the difference between half you're party getting wiped or not. For example, the cave full of phase spiders in ETOS, most toons get one shotted by them, using icy terrain, steal time, and oppressive force in the fight can basically guarantee those phase spiders never get a chance to attack anyone if you position yourself right. Another example is those armor golems in CR that one shot you with an IBS strike, you can freeze and stun them, super useful. Granted, there are also a lot of important fights where CC is not functional, like vs giants in FBI, certain critters in mobs, and most if not all bosses. It might be worth the devs considering allowing bosses to be CC'ed during certain frames, like they let their guard down and you can CC em' somehow, idk just a thought.