Is defense useful now that tr and hr damage is no longer piercing?

jwfort

With the damage mitigated would it be wise to switch to defense enchants that provide a bit of defense? I currently use enchants athat give deflect/hit points in my defense slots and I'm on console so I'm just wondering if there is any changes I may need to change.

slysnow

Defense has always been good. Defense helps reduce the initial hit. To my knowledge when hit it first goes through your defense, then your deflect chance, then your HP.

So a 10k hit will be mitigated by your damage dealt reduction (defense) first. Lets say you have 40% so now that 10k hit is down to 6k. From here it goes to your deflect chance. If you successfully deflect you then reduce that 6k hit by an additional 60%. That would mean you will take 3600 damage to your HP , down from the initial 10k hit. To my knowledge that is how it works. Sharp also had something similar in one of his guides before I think. Its been awhile since i looked into that so dont quote me on all this lol

To get a sense of if defense is good or not for you just ask someone to private que you 1v1. Use incoming healing boon as your defense boon. Then go again but use the defense boon. Just stand there and let the person hit you until death. The result of that test will let you know whether or not to use defense boon/stack defense

vordayn

Oppressive Darkness Feature by TRs is still piercing.

Aimed Shot by HRs is still piercing.

You still need to stack HP in some instances.

schietindebux

MOst player invest in deflect on PC but i saw some DC´s running at 80% DR+negation+classfeat on top and were near impossible to kill that like ... maybe by stacking 200% RI, can´t tell. So it seems to be from value from my observation.
Honestly i don´t understand some mechanics of TR´s.

I saw TR´s with 50k power, 15k recovery, near no arp and they went - stealth (CA+100%power) - bloodbath -hits dealt like 30k each one on a player with 60% defense + deflect 30-50%+ and and unp. shadowclad.
The ammount of damage was dealt by that daily, it´s not Opressive darkness following ACT that melts you in seconds and it´s not the SoD-proc (not needed...).
Beside the fact that some buffs are doubled (somone mentioned it somewhere x1.4 instead x1.2), I can´t understand the ammount of damage dealt by a daily by a class with no RI.
Or is it simply the ammount of non resistet damage wich kills you since the damage premitigation is that high from selfbuffs?
If so DR should be a good way to lower that ammount of incoming damage.
SoD from my understanding is no direct piercing also, only a proc (piercing) wich is a result of the ammount of dealt damage in the passing 6 seconds, tirggered by one encounter. So if you block everything (GF), there will be no high SoD proc following.

vordayn

Just to note - In PvP:

Armor Penetration is 60% less effective.
Critical Severity is 60% less effective.
Healing is 75% less effective.
Players take 40% less damage.

Basic Defense Mechanics

The maximum that defense can contribute to damage resistance (aka damage reduction, DR) is 80%. Your opponent will need to take your defense down with armor penetration or debuffs.

If you overcap defense, this acts against a buffer against the opponent's armor penetration/debuffs. However, if the opponent has next to no armor penetration (ArP) or doesn't employ debuffs in their rotation, then the amount you overcap on defense is wasted against that player, as DR can go no higher than 80%.

For example:
You have 80% DR
TR has 0% ArP and no debuffs
If the TR does a normal hit, which is not deflected, its effectiveness is 20% (i.e. 80% was reduced by DR). If it is deflected, it will only do 10% of its initial damage at 50% deflect severity.

If you have >80% DR, their damage will be unchanged.

NB: Deflect severity can be increased by 10% with Foehammer's Favor Elixir

However, this is not to say that TRs do not run with Armor Penetration or Debuffs. Even if they have 5000 stat in Armor Pen (which is easy to come by on equipment), this is reduced to 20% resistance ignored (as Armor Pen is 60% less effective in PvP, or in other words, 40% effective, and 100 Armor Pen contributes to 1% resistance ignored). This is equivalent to 20% DR or 8000 Defense stats. Hence, you need to stack more defense as a stat to overcome armor penetration as a stat in your opponent.

Against classes who stack armor penetration, or employ debuffs, then yes, defense is a useful stat to stack.

Some Piercing Still Exists in PvP

Piercing damage bypass all defense and deflect. Hence its effectiveness will be 60% as players take 40% less damage in PvP e.g:

[TR Class Feature] Oppressive Darkness: When you have Combat Advantage, your powers deal additional Piercing Damage to the target.

The Issue of Power

schietindebux said:

Honestly i don´t understand some mechanics of TR´s.

I saw TR´s with 50k power, 15k recovery, near no arp and they went - stealth (CA+100%power) - bloodbath -hits dealt like 30k each one on a player with 60% defense + deflect 30-50%+ and and unp. shadowclad.
The ammount of damage was dealt by that daily, it´s not Opressive darkness following ACT that melts you in seconds and it´s not the SoD-proc (not needed...).
Beside the fact that some buffs are doubled (somone mentioned it somewhere x1.4 instead x1.2), I can´t understand the ammount of damage dealt by a daily by a class with no RI.
Or is it simply the ammount of non resistet damage wich kills you since the damage premitigation is that high from selfbuffs?
If so DR should be a good way to lower that ammount of incoming damage.
SoD from my understanding is no direct piercing also, only a proc (piercing) wich is a result of the ammount of dealt damage in the passing 6 seconds, tirggered by one encounter. So if you block everything (GF), there will be no high SoD proc following.

TRs benefit from high power as they can multiply their powers with certain abilities:

1. [Feat] Press the Advantage (Scoundrel): Your Impossible to Catch now increases your Power rating by 10% (multiplies buffed power)
   
2. [Daily] Whirlwind of Blades: +20% Power buff per target hit (Target cap 5; max Power buff 100%) for 12 seconds (multiplies buffed power).
   
3. [Daily] Courage Breaker: +25% Power, Slows Targets, Reduces their Damage -54.5% for 10 seconds (multiplies buffed power)
   

You can see some good TRs self-multiplying their power to get 300-400k+ power (though this is only usually seen PvE with Bondings on Companions and Powershare). But in PvP, if they have a base power of 50k, then multiplication of this power contributes to additional damage. If they have an OP and DC with powershare in their party, then they multiply their already buffed power.

Power multiplies damage by: 400 stat = 1% power multiplier (which is different from DPS increase), but will multiply their damage by that amount.

TR self-buffing

The self-buffing of TRs (from my understanding) are as follows:

• [Mechanic] Stealth: Provides Combat Advantage (+15% base damage increase) + 100% Critical Chance (+Critical Severity %)
  
• [Feat] Cunning Ambusher: +2/4/6% Damage for 6 seconds after leaving stealth (stacks with itself if you leave/re-enter stealth)
  
• [Feat] Endless Assault: +6% Damage to Encounter powers.
  
• [Feat] Disciple of Strength: +2/4/6% Damage Buff
  
• [Exec Feat] Death Knell: +25% Damage to Foes < 30% HP
  
• [Exec Feat] Last Moments: +25% Damage to Foes < 40% HP (< 70% HP in stealth)
  
• [Exec Feat] Exposed Weakness: Ignore 25% of target's Armor while in stealth
  
• [Exec Feat] Shadowborn: Whenever you enter stealth, your next daily or encounter power does an additional 35% damage
  
• [Scoun Feat] Back Alley Tactics: When your Action Points are empty, you gain 25% damage, which reduces as you regenerate AP.
  
• [Class Feature] Invisible Infiltrator: +20% Damage Buff for 5 seconds after a daily power. This double stacks with Blood Bath (WAI or bugged?) so currently is +40% Damage Buff after BB.
  
• [Off Hand Bonus + Class Feature] Infiltrator's Action: +5% Damage Buff for 20 seconds, stacks with multiple dailies
  
• [Daily] Lurker's Assault: +30% Damage and increased Stealth regeneration for 10 seconds.
  
• [Daily] Blood Bath: Does damage to foes around you, Makes you immune to damage, and also double procs certain feats e.g. Invisible Infiltrator and off-hand bonus from Infiltrator's action.
  

TR Rotation 101

Hence a rotation with a TR can go something like this:

TR has 50k Power = +125% Damage
Disciple of Strength = +6% Damage
Note: All damage % increases are multiplicative, except for CA + Crit Sev which is additive with itself, and the double proccing feat Invisible Infiltrator with BB (as far as I know anyway)

1. Enters stealth [+15% CA +15% Crit Severity (Crit Sev is 60% less effective in PvP), base]
   
2. Smoke Bomb + Shadowborn [35% as damage]. SoD (Shadow of Demise) Initiates +DoT ticks with first encounter in stealth.
   
3. Blood Bath [+40% Damage with Invisible Infiltrator Feature, as this daily double procs, this Damage Increase also retroactively applies to Smoke Bomb, increasing its damage ticks with subsequent buffs]
   
4. Stealth meter refilled with Invisible Infiltrator
   
5. Back Alley Tactics Procs [While AP 0% gives + 25% damage, retroactively applies to all previous ticks of damage as AP goes down]
   
6. Impossible to Catch with Press the Advantage Feat [+10% power = 5k power, or +12.5% damage]
   
7. Any 3rd Encounter: Usually Impact Shot (Push, +Stun in stealth), Dazing Strike (Daze), or Lashing Blade (+50% Crit Sev in stealth)
   
8. Last Moments procs once target HP < 70% HP [+25% damage]
   
9. Death Knell procs once target HP < 30% HP [+25% damage]
   
10. Oppressive Darkness contribution as PIERCING damage [around ~15% according to ACT of all damage done]
    
11. Make sure you are still in stealth and close to your target and in line-of-sight before SoD Procs at 6 seconds
    
12. SoD Proc = 75% of all previous damage to everything (including all your allies and summoned targets) within the last 6 seconds against the 1 target. This cannot be mitigated by defense or deflect.
    

During the time the TR is in BB they are immune. When they have ITC they have +20,000% deflect. If they use ITC in stealth, it adds +50% DR. Because of Invisible Infiltrator, after BB, they refill their stealth meter. If they are low on stealth, or are awaiting more encounters, then they dodge (immune to damage, and if they have the Heroic Feat Twilight Adept, they regenerate 10% stealth with each dodge).

With enough recovery, after that theoretical rotation above, they can re-use smoke bomb (disables target) or ITC, and if they have Sigil of the Devoted or with enough AP gain/recovery, then re-use BB in short order.

Discussion

So even if you stack a lot of defense, the TR will just get around it, by dealing a base of 20% damage (as max DR is 80% after buffs/debuffs), their power/damage multipliers, some piercing damage (15% on all powers while having combat advantage with Oppressive Darkness, i.e. in stealth), and then SoD (which includes all damage to everything).

Hence, it is wise to also stack deflect and HP (and control resistance) when you are facing a TR. They will bypass your defense even if you stack it to sky-high levels, as most TRs don't use armor penetration, in favour of power, as @schietindebux said.

I would aim for 80% DR from all sources, including powers, items, buffs, but > 80% DR is not useful against classes that don't debuff/have ArP (e.g. TRs, HR), but > 80% DR is useful against classes that do debuff/have ArP (GWF/GF/SW/CW/DPS DCs).

What about the HR?

Lastly, against an HR, Aimed Shot is piercing, so it doesn't matter if you have defense or deflect, it will ignore that. Hence you either dodge, block, shadowslip or stack high HP, or kill them before they kill you.

schietindebux

Thx a lot, awesome.
So in the end Tr´s ignore crit and arp more or less

If a DC runs 80% DR + Negation + Hollowed ground + Forsight (of hand feat on top), he is at 80% + 0-40% DR + 35% + 8% = 123-163% DR
I need to overcome 43-83% DR to get him below cap, means I need up to 207% RI to scratch at that cap.
My warlock at 140% RI get´s him down to 63%, that´s a 65% damage increase for short ... at 3 stacks of negation he is at cap again.
A TR won´t get him down to anything, so at cap you can demenish incoming damage from a TR from 80% up to 90% (depending on added deflect), Oppressive darkness (15% piercing) will also be downsized by that, not worthless in my eyes. I´ll check my DC setup next time.

Most classes can´t stack DR up to an acceptable ammount like DC can. At 60% DR I get down to zero by 150% RI , if debuffs are involved even faster. At 40% my opponent needs 100% RI (that´s the average Ri most classses run I´d say). DR is not that valuable for most classes since you need to stack a lot to be effecitve I´d say, so Deflect is your friend.

Anyone knows how debuffs work in PVP in terms of effectiveness?

vordayn

schietindebux said:

Thx a lot, awesome.
So in the end Tr´s ignore crit and arp more or less

Yep, besides ignoring Crit and ArPen, they can also ignore Defense and Deflect because of their ITC, multiple immunity frames (dodge, BB), control power (smoke bomb/daze) and stealth mechanic.

So they only really need to focus on Power and Recovery, making them one of the best classes to min/max their stats.

schietindebux said:

If a DC runs 80% DR + Negation + Hollowed ground + Forsight (of hand feat on top), he is at 80% + 0-40% DR + 35% + 8% = 123-163% DR
I need to overcome 43-83% DR to get him below cap, means I need up to 207% RI to scratch at that cap.
My warlock at 140% RI get´s him down to 63%, that´s a 65% damage increase for short ... at 3 stacks of negation he is at cap again.
A TR won´t get him down to anything, so at cap you can demenish incoming damage from a TR from 80% up to 90% (depending on added deflect), Oppressive darkness (15% piercing) will also be downsized by that, not worthless in my eyes. I´ll check my DC setup next time.

Most classes can´t stack DR up to an acceptable ammount like DC can. At 60% DR I get down to zero by 150% RI , if debuffs are involved even faster. At 40% my opponent needs 100% RI (that´s the average Ri most classses run I´d say). DR is not that valuable for most classes since you need to stack a lot to be effecitve I´d say, so Deflect is your friend.

Yes, however, you do notice the difference good defense makes against a TR. If you didn't have any defense (above that of their RI) then you will go down *a lot* faster.

The GF and OP can also make good use of defense stacking.

The GF has a third layer of mitigation: their Shield Mechanic. Hence, only 20% gets through if their shield is up, and of this 20%, if they have full 80% DR, then only 4% gets through, and then if deflected only 2% of the damage gets through (or 1.6% if they have Foehammer's Elixir).

I am not sure though, does the Shield Mechanic block piercing attacks?

schietindebux said:

Anyone knows how debuffs work in PVP in terms of effectiveness?

AFAIK, there is no reduction in terms of effectiveness of debuffs in PvP vs PvE. I would also assume that it suffers diminishing returns like in PvE, but because there isn't a lot of stacking of debuffs in PvP, then it would still be in the steeper part of the debuffing curve. Happy to be corrected though.

Hence, if you have a Righteous DC + MoF Debuffer (either with a Dread Enchant) in the party, it can shred most tanky classes defenses quite easily.

jonkoca

Uhm, people, aimed shot has never been piercing damage. Archers have only one piercing feat on the archer feat tree, longshot, which is pretty HAMSTER tbh.

If aimed shot had been piercing, I'd have oneshot absolutely every pvp toon in the game, every single time.