GF tact improve

cerberusforces

Is there any hope to improve GF tactician gameplay? I know now a lot of ppl play DPS/BUFF GF and probably they like this style, but i think not everyone want play like this. I dont want nerf dps-gf but i want to make gf tank/buff more useful in party. Currently, I have the impression that GF tactician is like "extinct specie". And Yes i know few ppl are still playing tact gf but this char it could be much more useful in pt.
Is there any hope for it to be tactician better and more useful?

pitshade

What it would ultimately come down to is that GF/Tactician party buffs would need to be competitive with OP Auras and Aura Gifts. A well built GF can tank the endgame but people want more than just holding aggro and not dying. People will pick the tank that gives more buffs or adds to the party in some other way.

And the devs would also need to balance the buffs so they don't cenment 2 tanks into the meta the way that the DC rework last year did with AC and DO. The trick becomes to make it only desirable to have one tank and at the same time make it so that one class isn't clearly better for the group.

cerberusforces

I have the impression that gf tack was left alone and some wait until it extinction. I remember times when OP was rarely played now the same is happening with gf tact (maybe less at DPS gf). It would be great if Dev found "compromise" and They saved GF TACT. But is there any chance for it? Improving gf tact would affect the rest of the players.

eion311

I'm confused, all I see in lfg & channels is "need Tact GF". Are you saying you want to tank as a tact gf? Because a lot of people still do, they pair up with a dev OP, etc..

cerberusforces

Gf have a shield it's normal he will be a good tank but buff which tact gives they are too weak. You know why someone is still looking GF tact? Because only few people play like GF tact. Above I wrote why, no one wants to act as extras but this is the role of gf tact now.

peregr1nus

Ppl ask for Tacticians because they fear the Conqueror will be squished or outDPSes the main dps.
Btw... i know its just a myth but there is rumored to be also 3rd path for GF, and it supossed to be called Protector

jaime4312

To become competitive with paladin, GF buffs need to compete with auras of courage (10% - 30% damage for striker classes, good luck vs this one) and wisdom, powershare, superior sheperd's devotion and personal damage... so, unless the devs do meaningful tweaks, GF will remain objectively inferior.

Buffing tac GF a lot to make it comparable to OP would encourage groups to run both classes just like endgame groups run 2 clerics.

I would like to see what devs do about this. @terramak

grimah

The main issue with Tactician is the design of the Capstone Feat. You need to lose health to generate AP, which is situational and only works well with the toughest content where your hp is dropping regularly (like CR last boss). In most cases you team won't even notice any difference and tactician is useless with most previous content you have outgeared.

If they changed it so you shared... say half of all the AP you gained or just the AP you gain from blocking, it would be much more scalable and consistently useful.

cerberusforces

That's what I mean, I don't want a nerf of any class. But I would like, players who like to play as GF tact they had the pleasure of game and felt at the pt. needed.
There is also a problem after that if we have GF with 12k Il it will give the same buffs as GF with 17k Il. (I don't play OP so I do not know if the principle works the same) Compare GWF 12k and 17k huge difference. But in GF if you have +10k rec, stronghold weap, frost/plague/terror ench, dancing shield, skills lvl 4 and feats it's probably all what can you offer now your pt. You will achieve this with a small IL and without bondings. For me it is also a problem because, I invest time and AD and I don't give anything more my team, I don't feel stronger.

schietindebux

jaime4312#3760 said:

Buffing tac GF a lot to make it comparable to OP would encourage groups to run both classes just like endgame groups run 2 clerics.

They allready do in terms of max protection setup in CR.
That tact GF is set in stone due to the actual buggy and unpredicatable endboss, it simply is the cheapest way to get arround (scrolls).

Buff Tact-GF on par with OP...long way, but doing so implement limitations for groupcontent to go tank-tank-DC-DC-dps
One tank - one heal - 3dps/supporter in privat same as random queue, that´s what I expect going that way.
And fix the option to queue with an OP or GF as dps running an empty feat-tree

rjc9000

cerberusforces said:

(I don't play OP so I do not know if the principle works the same)

Protection OP actually has a reason to gear up with Aura Gifts, as better gear and better enchantments results in greater Power shared.

schietindebux said:

And fix the option to queue with an OP or GF as dps running an empty feat-tree

Wait, I can do that on GF?

pitshade

Plus gearing up for even more ridiculous amounts of Temp HP?

schietindebux

rjc9000 said:

cerberusforces said:

(I don't play OP so I do not know if the principle works the same)

Protection OP actually has a reason to gear up with Aura Gifts, as better gear and better enchantments results in greater Power shared.

schietindebux said:

And fix the option to queue with an OP or GF as dps running an empty feat-tree

Wait, I can do that on GF?

I know this works for OP, joining once a group that ran RAQ with OP-GF-DC + 2dps. It´s seems to be possible in case your feat tree is empty, just change laodout inside , done.
In theory you can run 5x OP in RAQ/REQ, not that I really tested this.
GF might not work that way, since you don´t have two different roles heal/tank to choose.

pitshade

Guardian Fighter is always a tank since the queues started looking for one. OP gets assigned tank with Protector paragon and healer with Devotion. There isnt a simple solution. You would have to deny OP over level 30 the ability to queue at all without a path selected. While people can take advantage of this, it doesnt seem like a big deal since the more hardcore players rarely public queue unless it's for fun or a bit of pocket change.

cerberusforces

But let's go back to improvements GF. What you think could be realistically improved, to make gf a more interesting and useful character?

manipulos

schietindebux said:

jaime4312#3760 said:

Buffing tac GF a lot to make it comparable to OP would encourage groups to run both classes just like endgame groups run 2 clerics.

They allready do in terms of max protection setup in CR.
That tact GF is set in stone due to the actual buggy and unpredicatable endboss, it simply is the cheapest way to get arround (scrolls).

Buff Tact-GF on par with OP...long way, but doing so implement limitations for groupcontent to go tank-tank-DC-DC-dps
One tank - one heal - 3dps/supporter in privat same as random queue, that´s what I expect going that way.
And fix the option to queue with an OP or GF as dps running an empty feat-tree

@schietindebux So what's the Tactician doing in the Strahd fight, running Knight's Valor? I'm curious because the chat channels were full of people asking for "buff GF" (lol) for CR runs all weekend. If you're gonna run KV just be the tank and have the OP run devo.

Back on topic, I would say Tactician could use a little more buffing as it does not buff much more than any other GF spec. Protection seems like it's in a worse spot, it could use some more damage mitigation for the party not solely in the form of lowering enemy damage because in cases like the Strahd fight there is no enemy to debuff while you are taking big damage from attacks.

cerberusforces

I wrote this before, ppl still looking GF tact, because almost no one is playing as tact. GF tact he was reduced to a second or even a third planned role, IL it doesn't constitute about your usefulness. A lot of ppl passed on dps or play gf like dps-buff. If you have all debuff stuffs, You don't give a team nothing more at the moment. Who wants to invest in a character that isn't progressing? For me gf can be as typical tank protector but let him be useful and strong buff or tank.

lowjohn

Tact GF is a highly desired role, it's very popular, it's capable of solo tanking anything in the game up to the latest and greatest content, and it gives strong synergistic buffs if it's a second tank to the point where people often ASK FOR IT SPECIFICALLY even if they already have a tank..... so you want it to be more powerful, because otherwise this powerful, useful, and heavily-desired path will..... die out somehow? Because sometimes, in some cases, a different tank can be more useful?

I think you're confused.

(and seriously, why not buff, say, the Protector path that's only really useful if you're carrying lowbies through FBI without a healer?)

cerberusforces

Probably You don play GF.

cilginordek

lowjohn said:

it's a second tank

Why is it a problem when classes like SW or CW are "second dps", but it is no issue at all when GF is "second tank"? Did you ever consider we want to be the main tank? Did you ever consider, as opposed to DPS role, random queues only have 1 slot for a tank? Not everyone plays the game same way you do, nor should anyone be forced to play the way you do.

guille23mx

In my experience ive been requested to run a tactictian GF only because of the Buff of the last Feat
"Taking unguarded DMG increases group AP gain based on your DR"

eion311

cerberusforces said:

Probably You don play GF.

I do, and I still can't figure out what you're after.
A Tact GF is wanted in groups, that's a fact. The way Tact GF's buffs are you do not need to be super geared to get a spot in a group and buff.
I know as a very well geared GF I usually run as a dps GF even when the group "thinks" they want a Tact GF because at my gear level me doing dps (and still buffing with ITF/CP) is way more beneficial to the group than me running as a Tact GF.

cerberusforces

cilginordek probably you don't know what I am mean or don't understand. I don't care about other classes because I don't play them. And I don't care how others play. I just want GF tact to be worth spend the time. You probably don't understand what this topic is about.
eion311
You wrote what the problem was and you still do not understand? Role of dps and tact they give the team very similar buffs. Tact can only adds buffs from weap ench, pets etc. Many people don't see the sense of playing a different feats than dps. But not everyone wants to play as DPS-Buff. Some would like to play as a buff or protector and develop a character in that direction rather than play dps. But such a game is then very unattractive, with a very limited development option.

cilginordek

Read my post again and the post I was replying to.

lowjohn

cerberusforces said:

Probably You don play GF.

Lol. 17K GF, swordmaster/Conquerer for solo and for tanking anything up to FBI, IV/Tact for tanking FBI+ and for buffing groups.

I play GF.

Your complaint, that the most popular and most effective GF build in endgame group content, that is highly desired and gets into runs easily, is somehow weak? Is nonsense.

lowjohn

cilginordek said:

lowjohn said:

it's a second tank

Why is it a problem when classes like SW or CW are "second dps", but it is no issue at all when GF is "second tank"? Did you ever consider we want to be the main tank? Did you ever consider, as opposed to DPS role, random queues only have 1 slot for a tank? Not everyone plays the game same way you do, nor should anyone be forced to play the way you do.

Go back and read what I ACTUALLY said, please:

lowjohn said:

Tact GF is a highly desired role, it's very popular, it's capable of solo tanking anything in the game up to the latest and greatest content, and it gives strong synergistic buffs if it's a second tank to the point where people often ASK FOR IT SPECIFICALLY even if they already have a tank.

Emphasis added.

As I said, GFs are completely capable of being main/sole tank. In anything. The fact that they're desirable *even if there's already another tank* is a nice bonus.

Now, given that I *never* said GFs were "only" a second tank, would you like to drop that strawman back in Barovia and try addressing my real point, which is that the dude who says GFs are bad and undesirable and need massive buffing is, to put it bluntly, wrong?

rjc9000

Is the original poster on PC, Xbox, or PS4?

Some platforms may have different developments in their metagame/different channel requests. I know Xbox was way ahead of the PC players in the DPS GF metagame and are still much better developed in the way of the DPS GF comparative to PC.

schietindebux

manipulos said:

schietindebux said:

jaime4312#3760 said:

Buffing tac GF a lot to make it comparable to OP would encourage groups to run both classes just like endgame groups run 2 clerics.

They allready do in terms of max protection setup in CR.
That tact GF is set in stone due to the actual buggy and unpredicatable endboss, it simply is the cheapest way to get arround (scrolls).

Buff Tact-GF on par with OP...long way, but doing so implement limitations for groupcontent to go tank-tank-DC-DC-dps
One tank - one heal - 3dps/supporter in privat same as random queue, that´s what I expect going that way.
And fix the option to queue with an OP or GF as dps running an empty feat-tree

@schietindebux So what's the Tactician doing in the Strahd fight, running Knight's Valor? I'm curious because the chat channels were full of people asking for "buff GF" (lol) for CR runs all weekend. If you're gonna run KV just be the tank and have the OP run devo.

Back on topic, I would say Tactician could use a little more buffing as it does not buff much more than any other GF spec. Protection seems like it's in a worse spot, it could use some more damage mitigation for the party not solely in the form of lowering enemy damage because in cases like the Strahd fight there is no enemy to debuff while you are taking big damage from attacks.

That´s how many player run that endboss, devotion OP, GF tank and there is no benefit to run conqueror > tactitian at this boss, so I would chose the easy, more comfortable, more defensive setup.
I experienced a significant difference between groups with or without a 2. tank, running KV at 3. Boss.
When you die once and lose that sunbuff a GF can deminish the following onehitting blasts, it´s cheaper in the sum.
I got invites with my DC at endboss from groups, trying for >2hours and dying >40 times. Some groups are said to stay 6h+ in that dungeon, sounds fun.

lantern22

cerberusforces said:

cilginordek probably you don't know what I am mean or don't understand. I don't care about other classes because I don't play them. And I don't care how others play. I just want GF tact to be worth spend the time. You probably don't understand what this topic is about.
eion311
You wrote what the problem was and you still do not understand? Role of dps and tact they give the team very similar buffs. Tact can only adds buffs from weap ench, pets etc. Many people don't see the sense of playing a different feats than dps. But not everyone wants to play as DPS-Buff. Some would like to play as a buff or protector and develop a character in that direction rather than play dps. But such a game is then very unattractive, with a very limited development option.

I think he was agreeing with you. Which by the way, I mostly dont.

Tact GF is OK, yes we might be second to OP as tank at the moment but it wasn't so long ago that it was the other way around. I still see plenty of ppl asking for Buff GF or GF Tact - I never (not once in all the years I have played) see anyone asking for Prot GF and hardly ever see ppl asking for DPS GF.

Shield up mate, take the hits, we will have our turn in the sun again

pitshade

A guildie said he has had to switch to Conq at Strahd because if your sole DPS gets grabbed, someone has to be able to kill the Nightmares.

cerberusforces

It's not even about being a second "tank", but it's about the role. I am not convinced when someone tell "in PE all time ppl looking GF". Maybe they are looking but only as an addition in party. There is also a one more thing, when i play with 4 dps i dont see huge bonus. On weaker dungs than CN noone doesn't need KV, and buff and debuff which gives GF are "average". Feats on tact they don't make any noticeable difference. So I'm not surprised that many people prefer to play as dps and give buffs. The only thing I would like to do with GF is make noticeable changes between conqueror, protector and tactician.
I know protector is probably not used by anyone, because you can be a good tank without this. But the difference between tactician and conqueror should be explicit.