How did this make it off the test server without getting noticed >.<</p>
It got noticed, documented clearly, and conveyed to the devs / CM.
But the mod went live with it in it's current state. That might mean that it wasn't deemed a priority and the devs didn't have time / resources to make a change. Or it could mean that this is actually working as intended.
We should have a fix in for a future update that leaves the power at 75%, but removes the double dipping from debuffs.
Just have in mind that reverting it back to pre-mitigated damage to avoid double dipping again creates a super strong SoD in PvP if you dont plan to remove Piercing from it.
Not sure if I'm remembering correctly, but before all of this nonsense began SoD was based on post-mitigated damage but dealt a piercing final hit (for 50% or whatever).
Yes, it was like that but i think that was era of Shocking Execution when Piercing didnt benefit from debuffs and wasnt affected by tenacity. Could be wrong here, dont remember it well either. I wonder how it will be handled. I doubt it will remain based on post-mitigated and made an exception so the SoD hit doesnt benefit from debuffs, if i remember correctly they said they didnt want to handle it that way.
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
How did this make it off the test server without getting noticed >.<</p>
It got noticed, documented clearly, and conveyed to the devs / CM.
But the mod went live with it in it's current state. That might mean that it wasn't deemed a priority and the devs didn't have time / resources to make a change. Or it could mean that this is actually working as intended.
We should have a fix in for a future update that leaves the power at 75%, but removes the double dipping from debuffs.
Just have in mind that reverting it back to pre-mitigated damage to avoid double dipping again creates a super strong SoD in PvP if you dont plan to remove Piercing from it.
Not sure if I'm remembering correctly, but before all of this nonsense began SoD was based on post-mitigated damage but dealt a piercing final hit (for 50% or whatever).
And I think that's what's being proposed, except with a buff to 75% and a DoT to help being tagged more noticeable.
My earlier point is I (maybe wrongly) believe that one of the reasons SoD was tinkered with to begin with was that it was lackluster. And now that we're back, it will be lackluster again (albeit a little better, but probably not enough).
On live, it's doing 75% * Sum of Debuffs w/ diminishing returns applied (this is the double dip). Which skews it towards high-performing meta groups (where debuffs can account for a lot). It's arguably overtuned on the high end, but I think just 75% alone would again be undertuned.
I would argue that when removing the double-dip, they should scale up the damage multiplier a bit more to compensate.
I no longer remember if before the first change, at mod 11.5 or so, piercing was more like direct HP removal or was mitigated by the 25% level 73 reduction. In any case it was not affected by debuffs, it's a more recent change when all the piercing damage was shoved into the debuff 'group'. This was done to make all the various piercing procs somewhat viable, otherwise they are extremely lackluster and not used. They just forgot that there are 2 powers that are not standalone piercing damage procs, but based on an earlier damage, so double dipping was born. Then it was changed to pre-mitigation, but kept as piercing, then "0 ArP, but you still dead in PvP" was born, and now we are back...Almost a full circle..
The most amazing thing, is that in all cases, we have posted about it. And really, there are easy ways to fix the specific issue, post-mitigated and pure piercing (not mitigated, and not debuffed, just direct HP removal), or pre-mitigated, and not piercing (regular proc).
Fixes/changes like that shouldn't take a whole mod or more, it was clear that it will be an issue in PvP an year ago..
Each class has their moments when they do spectacularly. Let the TRs have this moment.
I do think perhaps a rework of other TR powers and paths (making base damage a bit stronger) while toning down SoD might be the best way. There is no other path which really does well enough in PvE, and when SoD accounts for around 50% of an Executioner's damage output, then you know it is overperforming.
However, I hope that they do not revert the damage to not respecting mitigation in PvP again @noworries#8859.
Even 500.000.000 SoD procs is not enough to onephase that boss. Mabye make SoD a 8-10 second delay to hit harder before first phase ends? I´d say push that number a little bit, it saves everyones time running and farming that dungeon.
Tbh, in mod 13 I run several hundreds of codg. TR was the dominant class in the striker position TR>GWF>Hunter>GF, wich indicates the class was by no means in a bad spot. Sure other classes also do fine, GF 3 hit´s , GWF burst bosses away and Hunter ... no clue but is even faster many times, "roots" bosses? If you want TR to get in a better spot simply buff the direct damage and get rid of SoD, or make it a smaller number in the end. The timing and the 6 second delay is pretty incsonsitent in times of flying bosses and a funkiller same as a "funny kill" in many cases. Give that capstone a direct component or buff towards your damage. It´s even worse than a warlock´s DOT, since it misses completely in many cases.
Title of this thread is misleading and should be changed.
There is absolutely nothing 'buggy' about how SoD functions. It is working exactly as it is coded. There is no bug, there is no exploit.
Furthermore, it is not necessarily SOD's fault that it is over-performing to the extent that it currently is. There are multiple factors involved, from massive AP generation, ridiculous power stacking, absurd buff/debuff amounts, recklessly overpowered companion and mount bonuses, etc.
Not to mention the fact that this most recent change was too much too quick with not enough testing. Rather than changing one aspect, seeing how it functioned.. then tweaking another aspect and seeing its effect. They did it all at once with reckless abandon. It was done in the most unsafe and unpredictable way possible. Too many variables, not enough controls.
All that being said, I want to be clear. I am not defending SoD in its current form, it is too strong (sure is fun though). What worries me is what will be done to tone it down. If we use the recent buff as an example (too much too fast) then it may be safe to expect a similar approach when reducing SoD to a more balanced level. If that is the case then we may end up with TR's doing less damage than before SoD was changed in the first place. This is my biggest fear.
To the dev's. There is a community of very skilled and knowledgeable TR players. They are a valuable resource and you would be wise to utilize that resource and not take it for granted.
Neverwinter Module 6: The only MMO expansion in the history of MMO's to remove more content than it added.
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mamalion1234Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,415Arc User
How did this make it off the test server without getting noticed >.<</p>
It got noticed, documented clearly, and conveyed to the devs / CM.
But the mod went live with it in it's current state. That might mean that it wasn't deemed a priority and the devs didn't have time / resources to make a change. Or it could mean that this is actually working as intended.
The other option is that we didn't see the report. The official threads on the preview forum had over 2075 posts alone. That doesn't include the thousands of posts across the rest of our forums, the pms, reddit, chats, and other sources of information.
There will never be a time where we have all of that information cataloged, prioritized and fixed up without missing anything. It is a large amount of information coming in all at once, from a lot of directions, and sometimes some information simply gets overlooked.
We should have a fix in for a future update that leaves the power at 75%, but removes the double dipping from debuffs.
it is not necessarily SOD's fault that it is over-performing to the extent that it currently is.
What? How can it be "a spell's fault" to begin with? Even if I take away that illogical thing, it is, after all, SoD that does damage. It says so in the logs. It overperforms whether it is one (de)buff or two. It just makes the latter more extraordinary, but the BUG persists.
There is absolutely nothing 'buggy' about how SoD functions. It is working exactly as it is coded. There is no bug, there is no exploit.
What? Again, no. And DEV stated it is not WAI. That means it is bugged. It does not need to have it's own mathematical flaw (which it does, actually) in order to be bugged. It does not need to not work completely in order to be bugged or broken.
Now, what is a BUG? The BUG is when you've got a designed software component not working as intended. It effectively does a thing you do not want. It makes something that is wrong. Undesirable. Bad. It deviates from the original intent. Just because there are other way more potent undesirable spells in the game which affect the non-intended behavior of SoD, that does not mean that it is not a bug nor it means that it is programmed validly. Down the road of your post you also contradicted yourself stating
"not buggy" "not tested enough"
I'm sorry you feel that way, but you need to see a slightly bigger picture when talking about bugged content.
Cheers
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
How did this make it off the test server without getting noticed >.<</p>
It got noticed, documented clearly, and conveyed to the devs / CM.
But the mod went live with it in it's current state. That might mean that it wasn't deemed a priority and the devs didn't have time / resources to make a change. Or it could mean that this is actually working as intended.
The other option is that we didn't see the report. The official threads on the preview forum had over 2075 posts alone. That doesn't include the thousands of posts across the rest of our forums, the pms, reddit, chats, and other sources of information.
There will never be a time where we have all of that information cataloged, prioritized and fixed up without missing anything. It is a large amount of information coming in all at once, from a lot of directions, and sometimes some information simply gets overlooked.
We should have a fix in for a future update that leaves the power at 75%, but removes the double dipping from debuffs.
BTW the demise double dipping since last rework:
here that act is from april.
BTW, not correct, it was premitigated damage, hence it must be affected by debuffs at the proc, and wasn't at the accumulating damage. Your screenshot shows the correct one debuff applied at the proc.
Not that I care that much. Let those TR do the work, sitting in a wheelchair in codg and opening chests Congrats to be the best DOT class in the hole game.
About bug or not. A dev allready said it has to be fixed, so there is a bug obviously. SoD-Dot deals 75% of the triggering damage over 5 seconds. The last hit is said to deal 75% of that DOT postmitigation. At DR-cap in PVE it should be 75% not more, right? Now we see a screenshot (the first on page 1) .... 200k-200k-200k-200k-8 mio ! <- thats´more than 75% I´d say, it deals more or less 750%.
In PVP this should vary, a tank mitigates more than a Hunter from the triggering impact (in general), last proc will be deminished on top following the ammount of mitigation on that triggering impact, that´s how I understood the tooltip .... even though I don´t understand why a tank, who tends to mitigate most of the dealt damage vs him anyway get´s on top a deminshed last proc of that capstone ? Cryptic doesn´t like squishy classes in PVP and PVE, understood. It´s obvious looking at those last years. All classes have to fight in melee, no matter if PVP or PVE, we meet face to face with the boss same as we meet face to face with that OP/GF/GWF on a silly node
@schietindebux Last hit is not just 75% of the DOT, its 75% of everything done in 6 secs with proccing hit included. There is no bug here. Bug and not WAI are two different things. Aside from some AoC multiproccing with SB which no one mentioned here SoD is working as it was designed, intentional change from pre-mitigated damage to mitigated.
However, it is clearly not WAI. Even tho they never intended to make it double dip they intentionally changed it to mitigated based allowing it to double dip. Anyway, nothing is left to say here. They are aware of it now and working on a change.
Thx, looks like a TR deals near double damage from a capstone if chaining stealth into each other ? CW was nerfed (Spellstorm) for dealing too much damage from a capstone lately, devs were arguing more or less like that as far as I remember: "No class should deal that ammount of damage with a capstone." I really think your capstone sucks in the end , due to actual buffsetup and speedkills it procs at too late many times and in the sum the class is forced into a pretty tight corset some can´t or don´t want to master.
I had tons of fun with this bug as I did watch what all the TRs were doing left and right. Super cool!
But, to everyone saying that bug and not WAI are different things. Come on man. Who are you trying to fool?
Oh, and by the way - bug isn't necessary related to software. It can be requirements or documentation. Bad design is also a bug which seems to be the case in this thread. Anyway, it's being fixed with next patch.
No! lol! Not working as intended IS the very core definition of a bug. lol
Can you guys stop writing silly things? A Human mistake or an oversight which LEADS to the problem is the definition of a bug in any and all software engineering, whatsoever. IT does not need to be purely mechanical in order for a bug to occur.
Lol! The mere fact we can use tools like ACT represents a form of debugging (of the occurred bug), thus locating it and pinpointing the flaw.
Let us see some facts for the sake of correctness :
SOD as a spell is the definition of the power and thus it carries the damage it does alongside with it. This means that SOD as a spell power has a flawed carrier function that allows it to accept any if all spell powers aside from it. Intended function, although not clear enough before which fooled you and other people alike into thinking that spell is WAI, was as developer stated. The deviation from the path of the intended function of the spell, be it internal or external factors, are what leads to an unintended result, thus inevitably and undeniably producing a BUG. To confirm that it is SOD that is bugged we can see that it had a human-based oversight in its programming, thus arguably again producing the very definition of a BUG.
Yes, NOT WAI means BUGGED. lol
So good to have this important discussion waiting for the inevitable fix. If that is what makes it easier to digest... Oh, well.
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
Hey guys. I had tons of fun with this bug as I did watch what all the TRs were doing left and right. Super cool! But, to everyone saying that bug and not WAI are different things. Come on man. Who are you trying to fool? Oh, and by the way - bug isn't necessary related to software. It can be requirements or documentation. Bad design is also a bug which seems to be the case in this thread. Anyway, it's being fixed with next patch.
They are different things, if you dont understand it thats your problem. Bad design is bad design, if it works as designed its not a bug, if it works differently then its a bug.
No! lol! Not working as intended IS the very core definition of a bug. lol Can you guys stop writing silly things? A Human mistake or an oversight which LEADS to the problem is the definition of a bug in any and all software engineering, whatsoever. IT does not need to be purely mechanical in order for a bug to occur.
Not working as intended doesnt mean its a bug. You can call it silly but thats only because you dont understand it and want to label it as bugged. Just because you want it to be a bug it wont become a bug. Just because you used ACT to track what damage SoD does you didnt make it a bug. I was not fooled, i never said it is WAI, i said its not a bug. You keep confusing those two terms and keep putting an equality sign between them. SoD was made to work based on mitigated damage, intentionally and it is working as designed. SoD is not doing something that it wasnt made to do (AoC multiprocing aside). You might have trouble to digest that but there is no bug there no matter how much you want it to be.
Actually I'm a certified software tester with some years of experience, so please don't tell me how my job should be done.
They are not different things. There are design bugs, documentation ones and also bugs found in production. And if you want to be specific, they're not bugs but faults according to official ISTQB standards.
@blur#5900 Actually I'm a certified software tester with some years of experience, so please don't tell me how my job should be done. They are not different things. There are design bugs, documentation ones and also bugs found in production. And if you want to be specific, they're not bugs but faults according to official ISTQB standards. Cheers.
Ok, mr Certified Software Tester, tell me what is buggy in this SoD Piercing damage which is based on mitigated damage?
As I see it, the major fault here was that the tester/test team did not find the faulty behaviour (to the intention of the design of SoD). Reason may be: A: Lack of time/Resources B: Insufficient testing documentation (where the design of SoD is described (text, flow chart, pseudocode or other))
@liliadrakon#3570 all good, it's rather sad that even with the bug, SW is weaker than other strikers. @balanced#2849 SW shouldn't be able to ignore debuffs cap in mod 12+ endgame content and the class' dps spec needs to get its issues addressed.
@micky1p00 I know the difference between buffs and debuffs, it was those 1 billion plus hits + not knowing TR much that made me think SoD was double benefiting from buffs as well.
Comments
I wonder how it will be handled. I doubt it will remain based on post-mitigated and made an exception so the SoD hit doesnt benefit from debuffs, if i remember correctly they said they didnt want to handle it that way.
They just forgot that there are 2 powers that are not standalone piercing damage procs, but based on an earlier damage, so double dipping was born.
Then it was changed to pre-mitigation, but kept as piercing, then "0 ArP, but you still dead in PvP" was born, and now we are back...Almost a full circle..
The most amazing thing, is that in all cases, we have posted about it.
And really, there are easy ways to fix the specific issue, post-mitigated and pure piercing (not mitigated, and not debuffed, just direct HP removal), or pre-mitigated, and not piercing (regular proc).
Fixes/changes like that shouldn't take a whole mod or more, it was clear that it will be an issue in PvP an year ago..
Double dip debuff:
https://www.arcgames.com/en/games/neverwinter/news/detail/10582374
Then August 2017 pre-mitigated (preview), and here we are now..
650ish mils of damage
I do think perhaps a rework of other TR powers and paths (making base damage a bit stronger) while toning down SoD might be the best way. There is no other path which really does well enough in PvE, and when SoD accounts for around 50% of an Executioner's damage output, then you know it is overperforming.
However, I hope that they do not revert the damage to not respecting mitigation in PvP again @noworries#8859.
I´d say push that number a little bit, it saves everyones time running and farming that dungeon.
Tbh, in mod 13 I run several hundreds of codg. TR was the dominant class in the striker position TR>GWF>Hunter>GF, wich indicates the class was by no means in a bad spot. Sure other classes also do fine, GF 3 hit´s , GWF burst bosses away and Hunter ... no clue but is even faster many times, "roots" bosses?
If you want TR to get in a better spot simply buff the direct damage and get rid of SoD, or make it a smaller number in the end. The timing and the 6 second delay is pretty incsonsitent in times of flying bosses and a funkiller same as a "funny kill" in many cases.
Give that capstone a direct component or buff towards your damage.
It´s even worse than a warlock´s DOT, since it misses completely in many cases.
There is absolutely nothing 'buggy' about how SoD functions. It is working exactly as it is coded. There is no bug, there is no exploit.
Furthermore, it is not necessarily SOD's fault that it is over-performing to the extent that it currently is. There are multiple factors involved, from massive AP generation, ridiculous power stacking, absurd buff/debuff amounts, recklessly overpowered companion and mount bonuses, etc.
Not to mention the fact that this most recent change was too much too quick with not enough testing. Rather than changing one aspect, seeing how it functioned.. then tweaking another aspect and seeing its effect. They did it all at once with reckless abandon. It was done in the most unsafe and unpredictable way possible. Too many variables, not enough controls.
All that being said, I want to be clear. I am not defending SoD in its current form, it is too strong (sure is fun though). What worries me is what will be done to tone it down. If we use the recent buff as an example (too much too fast) then it may be safe to expect a similar approach when reducing SoD to a more balanced level. If that is the case then we may end up with TR's doing less damage than before SoD was changed in the first place. This is my biggest fear.
To the dev's. There is a community of very skilled and knowledgeable TR players. They are a valuable resource and you would be wise to utilize that resource and not take it for granted.
here that act is from april.
Now, what is a BUG?
The BUG is when you've got a designed software component not working as intended. It effectively does a thing you do not want. It makes something that is wrong. Undesirable. Bad. It deviates from the original intent.
Just because there are other way more potent undesirable spells in the game which affect the non-intended behavior of SoD, that does not mean that it is not a bug nor it means that it is programmed validly.
Down the road of your post you also contradicted yourself stating
"not buggy"
"not tested enough"
I'm sorry you feel that way, but you need to see a slightly bigger picture when talking about bugged content.
Cheers
Your screenshot shows the correct one debuff applied at the proc.
Congrats to be the best DOT class in the hole game.
About bug or not. A dev allready said it has to be fixed, so there is a bug obviously.
SoD-Dot deals 75% of the triggering damage over 5 seconds. The last hit is said to deal 75% of that DOT postmitigation. At DR-cap in PVE it should be 75% not more, right?
Now we see a screenshot (the first on page 1) .... 200k-200k-200k-200k-8 mio ! <- thats´more than 75% I´d say, it deals more or less 750%.
In PVP this should vary, a tank mitigates more than a Hunter from the triggering impact (in general), last proc will be deminished on top following the ammount of mitigation on that triggering impact, that´s how I understood the tooltip .... even though I don´t understand why a tank, who tends to mitigate most of the dealt damage vs him anyway get´s on top a deminshed last proc of that capstone ?
Cryptic doesn´t like squishy classes in PVP and PVE, understood. It´s obvious looking at those last years. All classes have to fight in melee, no matter if PVP or PVE, we meet face to face with the boss same as we meet face to face with that OP/GF/GWF on a silly node
There is no bug here. Bug and not WAI are two different things. Aside from some AoC multiproccing with SB which no one mentioned here SoD is working as it was designed, intentional change from pre-mitigated damage to mitigated.
However, it is clearly not WAI. Even tho they never intended to make it double dip they intentionally changed it to mitigated based allowing it to double dip. Anyway, nothing is left to say here. They are aware of it now and working on a change.
CW was nerfed (Spellstorm) for dealing too much damage from a capstone lately, devs were arguing more or less like that as far as I remember:
"No class should deal that ammount of damage with a capstone."
I really think your capstone sucks in the end
I had tons of fun with this bug as I did watch what all the TRs were doing left and right. Super cool!
But, to everyone saying that bug and not WAI are different things. Come on man. Who are you trying to fool?
Oh, and by the way - bug isn't necessary related to software. It can be requirements or documentation. Bad design is also a bug which seems to be the case in this thread. Anyway, it's being fixed with next patch.
Can you guys stop writing silly things? A Human mistake or an oversight which LEADS to the problem is the definition of a bug in any and all software engineering, whatsoever. IT does not need to be purely mechanical in order for a bug to occur. Lol! The mere fact we can use tools like ACT represents a form of debugging (of the occurred bug), thus locating it and pinpointing the flaw.
Let us see some facts for the sake of correctness :
SOD as a spell is the definition of the power and thus it carries the damage it does alongside with it.
This means that SOD as a spell power has a flawed carrier function that allows it to accept any if all spell powers aside from it.
Intended function, although not clear enough before which fooled you and other people alike into thinking that spell is WAI, was as developer stated.
The deviation from the path of the intended function of the spell, be it internal or external factors, are what leads to an unintended result, thus inevitably and undeniably producing a BUG.
To confirm that it is SOD that is bugged we can see that it had a human-based oversight in its programming, thus arguably again producing the very definition of a BUG.
Yes, NOT WAI means BUGGED. lol
So good to have this important discussion waiting for the inevitable fix.
Bad design is bad design, if it works as designed its not a bug, if it works differently then its a bug. Not working as intended doesnt mean its a bug. You can call it silly but thats only because you dont understand it and want to label it as bugged. Just because you want it to be a bug it wont become a bug.
Just because you used ACT to track what damage SoD does you didnt make it a bug. I was not fooled, i never said it is WAI, i said its not a bug. You keep confusing those two terms and keep putting an equality sign between them.
SoD was made to work based on mitigated damage, intentionally and it is working as designed. SoD is not doing something that it wasnt made to do (AoC multiprocing aside). You might have trouble to digest that but there is no bug there no matter how much you want it to be.
Actually I'm a certified software tester with some years of experience, so please don't tell me how my job should be done.
They are not different things. There are design bugs, documentation ones and also bugs found in production. And if you want to be specific, they're not bugs but faults according to official ISTQB standards.
Cheers.
Reason may be:
A: Lack of time/Resources
B: Insufficient testing documentation (where the design of SoD is described (text, flow chart, pseudocode or other))
/Onin
@micky1p00 I know the difference between buffs and debuffs, it was those 1 billion plus hits + not knowing TR much that made me think SoD was double benefiting from buffs as well.