I had totally forgotten about that statement about the sliders, to be perfectly honest. I'm not sure why they haven't been messing with them. Perhaps it's something they would like to put into the game engine but haven't yet, for whatever reason, or there are other factors interfering with their use of them.
Kreatyve, I truly appreciate your even-handed engagement in this conversation, particularly as a moderator. I'll really test you now ....
The best idea I've heard concerning "other factors interfering" is a conspiracy theory concerning business viability of the free to play model. If you want to convince players to spend significant amounts of money on a free to play game, you need to give them a solid investment that gives them a sense of winning value. You want to: - Make them top of the PainGiver chart. - Give them a class that's easy to play. - Give them lots and lots of self-buffing feats. - Give them a toughness and control immunity not normally given to top DPS in MMOs, so that, not only can they survive more easily, but they can even ignore the tank, healer and rest of the party, as they use the super speed (also given to them) to surge ahead, alone, and own that PainGiver! - Make it so easy that, in fact, they can do massive damage by just smashing at-will buttons. - Perhaps make epic Demogorgon about losing the ability to cast encounter powers (smash those at-will buttons). - Ensure every heroic encounter and open challenge (dinosaur fang drop, whatever) favors drops to the biggest DPS. Fix that up slowly, once the class bias benefit is realized (or quickly, if it's dinosaur fang drops going to one class too obviously at the start, and people scream). Ever notice which of the DPS classes had the absolute lion's share of +5 Brutality rings, back when +5 Brutality rings were the Big Thing? All DPS really, really wanted them. - Convince prospective big-money spenders that the class privilege is a permanent thing. Allow the unbalanced bias to continue for years. - Focus on the support to buff that class even more. Beef up that support! Those support classes get to be happy too, and they synergize with the PainGiver rather than compete with them! It's a Win-Win-Win-Lose (Cryptic-Special DPS class-Support classes-other DPS). - Allow a situation to arise where private queues can break the 3DPS/1healer/1tank model, and have that DPS smash that PainGiver chart in times that leave other green. The WotC IP probably asks for the 3DPS/1healer/1tank model, so you still need to keep in on the public queue contraints - that nobody uses. - Let this unbalanced state continue indefinitely. Give potential money spenders comfort that their investment won't be wiped out by up-coming balance changes.
Now, does the class I just described sound familiar to you? Of course it does. Not only that, it fits like a glove. Once the idea is in your head, it doesn't go away easily. You think about it a little more. If the DEVs did such as thing, they would never be able to talk publicly about it. You would have a very obvious situation after a few years, and if a question like "Can the DEVs please explain..." arose, they'd never be able to engage and respond. Trying to pretend that you're trying to maintain class balance would invite easy argument and you'd end up looking stupid. You're far better off not engaging. The bit that really sucks with that theory? Well, you need other DPS classes, struggling in the dark, waiting for the day that "Cryptic Brings Balance to the Force". You need those guys grinding away from mod to mod, despite the fact that they're 2nd or 3rd rate DPS, and the DPS that they struggle to improve by a few % doesn't actually matter. It's those guys that make that PainGiver DPS class feel really special. If the special DPS class is the only DPS class, then there's too many of them competing each other, and the effect washes out.
Just a horrible and dark conspiracy theory really. Many suggestions there, whilst viable, are unlikely to have been planned. Not my original idea, and I'm definitely not trying to say that is the Cryptic business plan. You've got to stop and realize that without a viable business model, everybody loses. For all we know, it could be true to some degree, and it might be the thing that has kept NW afloat.
Thing is, once you put that fairly obvious idea together, realize how long the meta has actually existed (mod 12 was the toughened ignition point that encouraged the meta to emerge in an obvious manner), the on-going lack from Cryptic to discuss the true state of the game... simply looks bad.
1
kreatyveMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 10,545Community Moderator
I had totally forgotten about that statement about the sliders, to be perfectly honest. I'm not sure why they haven't been messing with them. Perhaps it's something they would like to put into the game engine but haven't yet, for whatever reason, or there are other factors interfering with their use of them.
Kreatyve, I truly appreciate your even-handed engagement in this conversation, particularly as a moderator. I'll really test you now ....
The best idea I've heard concerning "other factors interfering" is a conspiracy theory concerning business viability of the free to play model. If you want to convince players to spend significant amounts of money on a free to play game, you need to give them a solid investment that gives them a sense of winning value. You want to: - Make them top of the PainGiver chart. - Give them a class that's easy to play. - Give them lots and lots of self-buffing feats. - Give them a toughness and control immunity not normally given to top DPS in MMOs, so that, not only can they survive more easily, but they can even ignore the tank, healer and rest of the party, as they use the super speed (also given to them) to surge ahead, alone, and own that PainGiver! - Make it so easy that, in fact, they can do massive damage by just smashing at-will buttons. - Perhaps make epic Demogorgon about losing the ability to cast encounter powers (smash those at-will buttons). - Ensure every heroic encounter and open challenge (dinosaur fang drop, whatever) favors drops to the biggest DPS. Fix that up slowly, once the class bias benefit is realized (or quickly, if it's dinosaur fang drops going to one class too obviously at the start, and people scream). Ever notice which of the DPS classes had the absolute lion's share of +5 Brutality rings, back when +5 Brutality rings were the Big Thing? All DPS really, really wanted them. - Convince prospective big-money spenders that the class privilege is a permanent thing. Allow the unbalanced bias to continue for years. - Focus on the support to buff that class even more. Beef up that support! Those support classes get to be happy too, and they synergize with the PainGiver rather than compete with them! It's a Win-Win-Win-Lose (Cryptic-Special DPS class-Support classes-other DPS). - Allow a situation to arise where private queues can break the 3DPS/1healer/1tank model, and have that DPS smash that PainGiver chart in times that leave other green. The WotC IP probably asks for the 3DPS/1healer/1tank model, so you still need to keep in on the public queue contraints - that nobody uses. - Let this unbalanced state continue indefinitely. Give potential money spenders comfort that their investment won't be wiped out by up-coming balance changes.
Now, does the class I just described sound familiar to you? Of course it does. Not only that, it fits like a glove. Once the idea is in your head, it doesn't go away easily. You think about it a little more. If the DEVs did such as thing, they would never be able to talk publicly about it. You would have a very obvious situation after a few years, and if a question like "Can the DEVs please explain..." arose, they'd never be able to engage and respond. Trying to pretend that you're trying to maintain class balance would invite easy argument and you'd end up looking stupid. You're far better off not engaging. The bit that really sucks with that theory? Well, you need other DPS classes, struggling in the dark, waiting for the day that "Cryptic Brings Balance to the Force". You need those guys grinding away from mod to mod, despite the fact that they're 2nd or 3rd rate DPS, and the DPS that they struggle to improve by a few % doesn't actually matter. It's those guys that make that PainGiver DPS class feel really special. If the special DPS class is the only DPS class, then there's too many of them competing each other, and the effect washes out.
Just a horrible and dark conspiracy theory really. Many suggestions there, whilst viable, are unlikely to have been planned. Not my original idea, and I'm definitely not trying to say that is the Cryptic business plan. You've got to stop and realize that without a viable business model, everybody loses. For all we know, it could be true to some degree, and it might be the thing that has kept NW afloat.
Thing is, once you put that fairly obvious idea together, realize how long the meta has actually existed (mod 12 was the toughened ignition point that encouraged the meta to emerge in an obvious manner), the on-going lack from Cryptic to discuss the true state of the game... simply looks bad.
I can't really argue with any of that statement. I will state that I've mained a GWF since mod 2, even before we were really OP. And while I wouldn't mind the other DPS classes being brought up to our level, I do not want my precious GWF to be nerfed.
My opinions are my own. I do not work for PWE or Cryptic. - Forum Rules - Protector's Enclave Discord - I play on Xbox Any of my comments not posted in orange are based on my own personal opinion and not official. Any messages written in orange are official moderation messages. Signature images are now fixed!
Balance is something that they are constantly looking into, but to be perfectly honest, unless you are basically going to have every class the same, or only 3 classes (1 tank, 1 heal, 1 DPS), it's impossible to achieve. There are always going to be classes that are better at certain at things than other classes. Can they get things a bit better balanced than they are right now? Certainly. But they are a small studio with limited resources. They have other things that they have to work on too. Bug fixes, new content, etc. Every major patch they do has balancing changes though. If you read the patch notes for all the modules, you will see major changes for at least 1 class, minimum. Maybe if they had all the resources that one of the much larger studios, like Blizzard, they could get things done a lot faster and easier, but as it stands, that is not the case.
Another thing they have to take into consideration is the lore related to their classes. As they do not own the IP, they can not just add in whatever powers they want. They can't just say well, we are going to make this power do this instead of that. They have things that they are able to change, but Wizards has a LOT of pull and say in certain things that they can or can not do.
At the end of the day, the game is free and other than VIP, there is no reason you can't take a break for a bit if you aren't happy with the current state of things. You can always check in or come back to it later to see if things have changed enough for you to have fun again.
I totally get what you're saying, where they're busy with other things, but the idea that the current state of the game is what you get even when "balance is something they are constantly looking into", is really worrying.
Firstly, the constraints: Check out the twitch with Lead Systems Designer Robert Gutschera. There are a large "number of levers" available to tweak and make adjustments. There's no way that class lore and WotC IP is responsible for the relative strength and viability of classes. That ship sailed even before you needed to roll damage dice over 1,000,000 times to kill a boss. There's no way that ability to do 500,000+ damage with your at-wills is remotely a part of D&D IP, and an example of how NW is constrained by how WotC declare powers should work. One such very simple lever is an almost linear adjustment to class DPS by tweaking the base weapon damages - as suggested by SharpEdge. They're not doing anything remotely like that. What they did do, when they killed off entity procs and cast CW DPS deeper in the ditch, was make a SpellStorm improvement, and then nerf that improvement, to ensure that they left the CW exactly where they were before, as a 3rd rate DPS class. After almost 3 years of Cryptic not touching the class since great Nerf Exodus of module 6, I finally understand that the deplorable state of the class is very deliberate.
Then the results: I, and many others, have pointed out the super obvious bias in TONG party composition since the start of mod 12. For months TONG parties were flooded with GWFs, DCs and OPs - with good reason. These are players getting the latest gear, with ultimate enchant drop rates at their highest, and AH prices at their highest. It's a big deal. We all know that the GWF is the massively preferred class for DPS, and that the DCs and OPs are the massively preferred support. There are many posts across the forums counting the actual numbers of classeses in TONG runs, and there's no way that Cryptic isn't highly aware. It's really obvious to anyone that there are very large gaps between the DPS classes, backed up with highly skewed statistics for party compositions. This is not about slight differences between classes and perfect balance being hard to achieve. This is about very signifcant, long term gaps between classes - either by design, or by neglect.
Once you start talking about actual evidence and results, nobody is going to try and claim that the current state of class balance is a reflection of Cryptic's constant tweaking of the many levers available to them, and a desire to achieve fair relevance of classes. Going into mod 14, Cryptic are still advertising a game design with 5 member party Ravenloft Castle queuing as 3 DPS, 1 Healer and 1 Tank. There's no communication from them on any game direction, so we should expect a 3rd module in a row where the latest content is dominated by private queues composed of the meta. Once the drop rates on the latest big thing have dropped off, along with it's AH price, and the GWFs are getting bored, the dominant support will presumably start putting other DPS classes at the front of slower runs.
I absolutely agree that the game is free and you can leave, or take a break. Is this the answer? With a major dungeon-run based MMO about to release?
If you think that Cryptic are constantly tweaking to achieve their desired effect, I'd love to know what you think that desired effect is. The evidence that it's not about balance across DPS classes (remember: 3 DPS, 1 healer, 1 tank), is overwhelming.
So far this is the most accurate, informed and coherent post I've read in this thread. Thank you for taking the time to explain your perspective and post it.
Is leaving the answer? More than likely yes, for the individual. Unless you're already attached to one of the larger guilds, there is no longer any real purpose behind playing this game. Progression is now impossible, base classes are rendered effectively inert by design and spite, the very first thing Cryptic has plugged about Ravenloft is the lockbox. Not the story, not the characters, lore or gameplay. The lockbox.
Is leaving the answer? Yes. That is the only rational or objectively sensible move any person has confronted with the choice. Am I going to? Oh hell no, this train wreck is so typical, the absolute disaster they've made out of the IP so fundamentally Cryptic that I've started watching it like I watch Champions Online. It's just too funny to leave. They'll never likely see a dime from me, but I'm not going anywhere. I can't wait to watch.
Comments
I'll really test you now
The best idea I've heard concerning "other factors interfering" is a conspiracy theory concerning business viability of the free to play model.
If you want to convince players to spend significant amounts of money on a free to play game, you need to give them a solid investment that gives them a sense of winning value. You want to:
- Make them top of the PainGiver chart.
- Give them a class that's easy to play.
- Give them lots and lots of self-buffing feats.
- Give them a toughness and control immunity not normally given to top DPS in MMOs, so that, not only can they survive more easily, but they can even ignore the tank, healer and rest of the party, as they use the super speed (also given to them) to surge ahead, alone, and own that PainGiver!
- Make it so easy that, in fact, they can do massive damage by just smashing at-will buttons.
- Perhaps make epic Demogorgon about losing the ability to cast encounter powers (smash those at-will buttons).
- Ensure every heroic encounter and open challenge (dinosaur fang drop, whatever) favors drops to the biggest DPS. Fix that up slowly, once the class bias benefit is realized (or quickly, if it's dinosaur fang drops going to one class too obviously at the start, and people scream). Ever notice which of the DPS classes had the absolute lion's share of +5 Brutality rings, back when +5 Brutality rings were the Big Thing? All DPS really, really wanted them.
- Convince prospective big-money spenders that the class privilege is a permanent thing. Allow the unbalanced bias to continue for years.
- Focus on the support to buff that class even more. Beef up that support! Those support classes get to be happy too, and they synergize with the PainGiver rather than compete with them! It's a Win-Win-Win-Lose (Cryptic-Special DPS class-Support classes-other DPS).
- Allow a situation to arise where private queues can break the 3DPS/1healer/1tank model, and have that DPS smash that PainGiver chart in times that leave other green. The WotC IP probably asks for the 3DPS/1healer/1tank model, so you still need to keep in on the public queue contraints - that nobody uses.
- Let this unbalanced state continue indefinitely. Give potential money spenders comfort that their investment won't be wiped out by up-coming balance changes.
Now, does the class I just described sound familiar to you? Of course it does. Not only that, it fits like a glove. Once the idea is in your head, it doesn't go away easily. You think about it a little more. If the DEVs did such as thing, they would never be able to talk publicly about it. You would have a very obvious situation after a few years, and if a question like "Can the DEVs please explain..." arose, they'd never be able to engage and respond. Trying to pretend that you're trying to maintain class balance would invite easy argument and you'd end up looking stupid. You're far better off not engaging.
The bit that really sucks with that theory? Well, you need other DPS classes, struggling in the dark, waiting for the day that "Cryptic Brings Balance to the Force". You need those guys grinding away from mod to mod, despite the fact that they're 2nd or 3rd rate DPS, and the DPS that they struggle to improve by a few % doesn't actually matter. It's those guys that make that PainGiver DPS class feel really special. If the special DPS class is the only DPS class, then there's too many of them competing each other, and the effect washes out.
Just a horrible and dark conspiracy theory really. Many suggestions there, whilst viable, are unlikely to have been planned. Not my original idea, and I'm definitely not trying to say that is the Cryptic business plan. You've got to stop and realize that without a viable business model, everybody loses. For all we know, it could be true to some degree, and it might be the thing that has kept NW afloat.
Thing is, once you put that fairly obvious idea together, realize how long the meta has actually existed (mod 12 was the toughened ignition point that encouraged the meta to emerge in an obvious manner), the on-going lack from Cryptic to discuss the true state of the game... simply looks bad.
Any of my comments not posted in orange are based on my own personal opinion and not official.
Any messages written in orange are official moderation messages. Signature images are now fixed!
So far this is the most accurate, informed and coherent post I've read in this thread. Thank you for taking the time to explain your perspective and post it.
Is leaving the answer? More than likely yes, for the individual. Unless you're already attached to one of the larger guilds, there is no longer any real purpose behind playing this game. Progression is now impossible, base classes are rendered effectively inert by design and spite, the very first thing Cryptic has plugged about Ravenloft is the lockbox. Not the story, not the characters, lore or gameplay. The lockbox.
Is leaving the answer? Yes. That is the only rational or objectively sensible move any person has confronted with the choice. Am I going to? Oh hell no, this train wreck is so typical, the absolute disaster they've made out of the IP so fundamentally Cryptic that I've started watching it like I watch Champions Online. It's just too funny to leave. They'll never likely see a dime from me, but I'm not going anywhere. I can't wait to watch.