Left Behind (Skirmish/Dungeon/Epic Dungeon Edition)

bobgreenwade

Related to the thread on "Freddy Freeloaders," I'm having something of the opposite problem.

When I queue up for a Skirmish, Dungeon, or Epic Dungeon, I often find that the other members of the party have run on ahead without me and are about two or three encounters advanced. In many cases this is only a minor inconvenience, and catching up is little trouble, but there are cases where the trouble is big:

• In most Epic Dungeons, players have found ways to skip certain enemies. For example, there are several shortcuts in the Temple of the Spider, and while I don't fault them for using them (and will gladly follow them if I can), the first one is one I don't have committed to memory, so if all of the other players have already taken it, I'm stuck with trial and error.
  
• The worst example (and the one that prompted me to finally write about the problem) came last week when I entered Valindra's Tower, spawning at the start of the second stage (in the streets of Thay), with my health already down to 10% from the three mobs (Dread Protectors, I think) whom the other four players had skipped, leaving me to handle them alone. My victory over those three came just before the other players reached the door to confronting Valindra, and only then noticing that I wasn't with them. (Noticing my absence only when about to confront the boss is a pretty ubiquitous problem.) I was fortunate that two other players came back to help me deal with the Dread Hounds that they'd also skipped; there was no way I was getting past that bunch on my own, either fighting or running.
  
• In regular Dungeons it's an inconvenience, but still a significant one. My characters are loaded up with things like Quartermaster's Enchantments, Fey Blessing Enchantments, and a Siegebreaker Griffon with Wanderer's Fortune, which of course only drop their treats when I or my companion kill opponents (or at least do a significant percentage of the damage that kills them). Of course, since I'm on foot, it's difficult -- especially for my Paladin -- to catch up with the others (Caverns of Karrundax being one much-appreciated exception). Often I don't catch up with the other two players until the door to the final boss, and a few players will cuss me out as though I'd fallen behind deliberately (and with the "Freddy Freeloader" thread, I now can understand why).
  

One other place where I don't have this problem is Castle Never; the many waiting points (where the whole group has to be together) mean that I rarely get left far behind, and always get to make a contribution. It's also no more than an annoyance in Dread Legion; if the others can go fight while I'm loading, at least I don't have a big distance to cover once I'm able to join in, so more power to them. Illusionist's Gambit, Prophecy of Madness, and Throne of the Dwarven Gods are also safeguarded against this with an initial waiting area (though considering that they also have a small map space, it's probably unnecessary).

Besides not getting the drops from my various enchantments above, I also miss out on the satisfaction of making a real contribution to the encounter. That's a much bigger deal with me, actually.

For those other areas, I'm not sure what can be done. I don't want to unnecessarily penalize other players for moving ahead, especially since some players will hang back deliberately ("Freddy Freeloader"style), but something is needed to help those of us who frequently -- and unwillingly -- fall behind in this manner so we can catch up. Perhaps doubling movement speed when more than a certain distance from the closest enemy could make catching up easier? Increasing defenses against enemies the others have bypassed has some appeal, but might also be exploitable by freeloaders. Putting in a few more waiting points can help in some places, such as Valindra's Tower, Malabog's Castle, Kessel's Retreat, the Grey Wolf Den, and the Temple of the Spider (though it'd only be needed in the Epic versions of the last two).

(The idea of taking out the Temple of the Spider shortcuts has some appeal, but would probably upset more players than it'd satisfy. On the other hand the bypasses in Grey Wolf Den -- one shortcut and two easily-ignored encounters -- really should be fixed.)

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kharkov58

So what you are saying is, if you still need your utility slots to generate RP, you should not be doing dungeons because you will slow down the others.

chidion

bobgreenwade said:

Related to the thread on "Freddy Freeloaders," I'm having something of the opposite problem.

When I queue up for a Skirmish, Dungeon, or Epic Dungeon, I often find that the other members of the party have run on ahead without me and are about two or three encounters advanced. In many cases this is only a minor inconvenience, and catching up is little trouble, but there are cases where the trouble is big:

-snip-

(The idea of taking out the Temple of the Spider shortcuts has some appeal, but would probably upset more players than it'd satisfy. On the other hand the bypasses in Grey Wolf Den -- one shortcut and two easily-ignored encounters -- really should be fixed.)

Slower players being left behind by other players who apparently have no concept of "party" when comes to random dungeons and skirmished has turned out to be a oft repeated complaint, although one plus is the instance kick timer is no longer so low that so many slower players are kicked out of runs just for not being able to keep up.

One thing I've noticed recently is when queuing very fast players with a slower players, the timer on when drops disappear seems inconveniently short. When the party has a speed runner(s), going two, three or more mobs ahead of the slowest player, by the time that slow player gets to the area where defeated mobs dropped items those items are already gone or are fading fast (no longer glowing).

I would like to see Cryptic extend the time those drops remain available, specifically because of this.

Not every player will choose to pick up drops and that's fine, but for players who can actually benefit from dropped refinement gems, potions, coins or better gear, those drops don't do any good at all if they evaporate before a slower player can even get to them when they are in a party with speed runners.

Different players will have different play styles, some players are only in those random queues for the AD reward at the end and want to complete the instance and get out as quickly as possible, nothing wrong with that. Other players prefer engaging mobs for the experience and as I mentioned, possible drops - nothing wrong with that either...

But there are some players who harass other players and even attempt to kick them out of the content, simply because they disagree with another party member's play style. That I think is why the current kick timer is set so high and why it should remain there despite some players calling for shorter vote to kick timers.

The idea that every player should have Dark enchantments to boost their speed is a valid argument but not every player thinks their movement speed is something that should take precedence over everything else they are attempting to accomplish.

Leveling characters may prefer Azure enchantments to help them level up more quickly, some players may desire to have Radiant enchantments to boost their coin recovery... Yes being able to outfit Dark enchantments into utility slots will boost a player's movement speed - but aside from not every player being able to afford or obtain level 7 Dark enchantments, not every player is going to think their movement speed is something that needs to be greatly enhanced.

The only major problem with speed in random queue content presently as far as I'm concerned is the disparity in movement speed from one party member and the next and what I'd really like to see is all character/party member speeds being standardized while in that content.

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chidion

If speed runners leaving other party members behind is such a "non-problem" why do so many players appear to have a problem with it?

As I already mentioned different players have different play-style preferences. Not everyone wants to speed run past mobs and not get experience, drops or open chests so your suggestion about the best way to participate is to become faster appears relevant to only those players who don't need experience, better gear, coins, potions or refinement points from from mob drops.

As I see it the standardization of movement speed only becomes a problem for players who want to complete the content and exit as quickly as possible. Again not everyone queues for random content just for the AD's and suggesting speed running is a non-problem or even a viable solution for all players seems to disavow any player who is new to the content, who would actually benefit from mob drops, opening chests, etc., it also appears to ignore that even if some mobs are eliminated when a player runs through a given area, there may be subsequent mobs spawning that a slower player will have to contend with if they decide to take the time to pick up drops, open chests.

Suffice it to say I believe temporarily standardizing the movement speed for party members in random queue content like dungeons is a good idea - you apparently believe differently.

namelesshero347

chidion said:

there may be subsequent mobs spawning that a slower player will have to contend with if they decide to take the time to pick up drops, open chests.

Haha you know the player is a total newbie and slowpoke when you are at the end and then have to go back and help him with the mimic chest. Must be so embarrassing.

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greywynd

"The monster never sees a monster in a mirror." J. Michael Straczynski

frogwalloper

There really isn't much slower classes like OPs and DCs can do to keep up when paired with high speed GWFs or SWs. It's just not going to happen. But along with Darks, DCs can use their dash, and OPs can use their radiant strikes to move from mob to mob. And in the regular dungeons both can tank through mobs without much difficulty - though the problem there is the occasional level entrance that can't be accessed while the player's in combat mode. Graywolf can be bad for the slowest player for that very reason. So yes there are occasions when speedscummers FORCE another player to fight not one, not two, but three or four mobs all at once and all on their own, in order to move on. That's not skill, and it's not efficiency. Anyone who does that to another player is a jerk. That's the difference between a speed runner and a speedscummer. One's a do all, and the other's a do nothing. I'd rather have a bot in the group than a speedscummer. At least the bot might contribute.

If you can jog by a mob without them giving chase, that's a mob that doesn't need to be fought.
If you have to sprint by, or through a mob, or boost your movement speed ahead of time to stay far enough ahead so they can't catch up to pull you into combat mode, then that IS a mob that either needs to be fought or tanked - by the slowest member of the team.

But really, it is a team effort. Even if I don't particularly like what the rest of the team is doing, if that's how they want to play it, I'll follow suit. If the other two want a speed run, then that's what we'll have. If I'm on my GWF or SW, I try and give them a run for their money. Heaven help them if I'm on my OP or DC though 'cause then I'm rolling up the biggest foeball possible. They'd better stay ahead or else they're getting hit with an avalanche. But if there's just one dingbat who's willing to sacrifice the slowest-lowestK player, I'll always stick with the slow/low guy and let the scummer stew, and in some cases in a longer dungeon, I'll initiate a kick.

Incidentally, by far the fastest run I've ever had was three OPs in Spider.

bobgreenwade

To be clear: I don't much mind taking shortcuts, if everyone else is. It's just that that first one in Temple of Spider is hard for me to remember, and the one in Grey Wolf Den is awfully inconvenient. (I just barrel on through in the Normal versions of these two, unless I'm up with the group, but still struggle in the Epic ones.)

As for drops, I would very much prefer if drops in instanced missions never faded out at all. Then we could just go ahead through an encounter quickly, and then those who want to can take our time collecting the loot left behind (just as we might in a face-to-face game). It might take some reworking of some geography (like in Shores of Teurn) to allow characters to go back like that, but it would be helpful for both styles of play.

The real problem isn't players who want to run things fast; that's a big part of why I don't want to penalize such players, or inconvenience them any more than necessary. The problem is players who are so caught up in running things fast that they don't even notice that one of the team members has fallen behind (possibly from slow loading, possibly from dying and going back to the last respawn point, possibly for some other reason) and is having trouble catching up.

Oh, and I have Dark Enchantments of Level 10 or 11 in all Utility Slots not taken by Quartermaster, Fey Blessing, or something similar. All my characters are to the point where other Utility Slot bonuses (especially Gold) are largely superfluous.