Well, it depends on your group. But... the combat build is desired for the burst DPS.
Yesterday I ran Archer through T9g with no issues. Finished with 500+ mill. Because of the group, I could stay in ranged stance and spam LSS, no one said anything. Orcus boss fell fast, FAST!
yeah thats my opinion too. its basically DOT vs Burst. though i do think trapper needs some rework. somehow i think the roots feature has lost a lot of importance. enemies have CR, bosses are not affected by them, etc etc etc i know it grants weapon dmg if u dont root but i still think its low. to sum it up, i believe that most players think trapper is not relevant anymore, and that saddens me
appart from reducing cooldown and doting they are virtually useless. pvp included xD the anti trapper campaign has gone too far i believe. they still cant balance the 3 paths properly. archery is dead in pve, combat because of its burst is the most viable but not everyone likes its playstyle and the fact that u have to rely on 3 encounters and 1 at will (at most times). and trapper, needs some tweaking. combat is just fine i believe they managed to fine tune it (might be wrong)
I don't feel trapper is that much a useless path. I still use it PvP against the Archery glass cannons. I can't recall when I last used it in PvE. I will tonight.
I have a few thoughts on this that I'd like to share and get some feed back on.
I came back to the game at Mod 10 when Trapper was king of the hill, Combat was ok but a decent trapper could just smash all over a top Combat player. Mainly from the dmg of the roots and the way careful attack was working along with have literally no cooldowns. I played both styles but was more comfortable playing SW Combat myself so that is the patch that I stuck with. Then in Mod 12 they fixed some of the issues that Combat had that just opened the gate and allowed the Combat tree to just blow everything out of the water if played correctly.
Now the way that I look at the 2 different paths is this. Trapper is "supposed" to be loaded down with snares, roots and stuns. So it has massive CC ability as long as the mobs are not immune. It has the best mobility of all the paths with Slashers Mark and if you take Fleet stance. Then most of the time it runs Thorn Ward, Long striders, Hunters Teamwork so you have a nice kit of buffs/ debuffs baked into the regular play of it.
Take the SW Combat build now. In the standard build it offers no CC to speak of other than a few secs of CoA when used at ranged, Plant Growth breaks instantly. It has nothing to boost mobility other than Forest Ghost. As well as if SW Combat wants to weave in Longstriders during a fight that doesn't provide natural gaps it is a DPS loss to do so.
My HR is brought to the group as the main dmg. So when I run ToNG its 2 DC's, OP, GF and myself. It's the same for CoDG just with more support and another 1 or 2 dmg toons. HR's while we have the ability to bring buffs and debuffs there are other classes that do it 100x's better. So my thought process is that since Trapper has a better tool kit with it's "standard" build it should inately do less dps than Combat can do. How much of a gap between the two should it be? TBH I have no clue but IMO it should be rather noticeable. Partys should have to decide if they want more support with CC/buffs/debuffs and OK dps or a DPS machine.
As far as Archery goes,.... When I made my HR I thought it was a ranged class tbh, ol boy did Cryptic trick me lol. I would love for the Ranged classes in the game to be truly ranged. CW's, SW's and HR's need to be able to be at max range and attack with no penalities. Cryptic needs to make all buffs/debuffs party wide. Their current design kills all classes and builds that are ranged. They wouldn't need to be the best dps in the game IMO, they should be lower than melee since they would get to avoid 99% of fight mechaincs being that far out. Having a class that was low burst/sustain dmg could be at range free casting would/could be more effective netting more avg dmg over all. IMO would be very easy to balance a true ranged class that way.
Trappers definitely needs some loves back because since that new mode came out trappers are pretty much useless can’t control a Gf not even for 2 second after going behind them, damage went down. I use to be able to fight any class on pvp only a good Sw, or a good OP I couldn’t beat. But now I can’t even beat a palli or a good gf, Everything is going bad for Hr trappers
> @ibemin0x said: > @dragonsbane Trapper CC and dmg has been nerfed to the ground, roots are useless on bosses, and a combat hr can use thorn ward to debuff too, in fact all combat hrs use it... they need to rework the trapper mechanics and make it useful again. do you agree that a player should be kicked from a party just because he isnt combat??? and when u do have dcs,warlocks,pallies etc etc y would u want a trapper to buff and support??? and no, the gap shouldnt be that noticeable since trapper uses 6 encounters at all times, i believe cryptic is trolling us trappers xD also, trapper dont use the power u said at all times lul. constrict and cordon always slotted, hindering at most times or when at boss switch it to LS. fox is also viable, and to stun u need to slot crushing roots but that leads to huge dps loss because u have to replace serpent or aspect of the pack and there are other classes that CC better than trapper. this is just my opinion and i do think u have some valid points.
> @ibemin0x said: > @dragonsbane Trapper CC and dmg has been nerfed to the ground, roots are useless on bosses, and a combat hr can use thorn ward to debuff too, in fact all combat hrs use it... they need to rework the trapper mechanics and make it useful again. do you agree that a player should be kicked from a party just because he isnt combat??? and when u do have dcs,warlocks,pallies etc etc y would u want a trapper to buff and support??? and no, the gap shouldnt be that noticeable since trapper uses 6 encounters at all times, i believe cryptic is trolling us trappers xD also, trapper dont use the power u said at all times lul. constrict and cordon always slotted, hindering at most times or when at boss switch it to LS. fox is also viable, and to stun u need to slot crushing roots but that leads to huge dps loss because u have to replace serpent or aspect of the pack and there are other classes that CC better than trapper. this is just my opinion and i do think u have some valid points.
> @ibemin0x said: > @dragonsbane Trapper CC and dmg has been nerfed to the ground, roots are useless on bosses, and a combat hr can use thorn ward to debuff too, in fact all combat hrs use it... they need to rework the trapper mechanics and make it useful again. do you agree that a player should be kicked from a party just because he isnt combat??? and when u do have dcs,warlocks,pallies etc etc y would u want a trapper to buff and support??? and no, the gap shouldnt be that noticeable since trapper uses 6 encounters at all times, i believe cryptic is trolling us trappers xD also, trapper dont use the power u said at all times lul. constrict and cordon always slotted, hindering at most times or when at boss switch it to LS. fox is also viable, and to stun u need to slot crushing roots but that leads to huge dps loss because u have to replace serpent or aspect of the pack and there are other classes that CC better than trapper. this is just my opinion and i do think u have some valid points.
While yes a Combat HR can slot Thorn Ward, to do so would drop our dps output to that of a TR , Our set skill line up as SW for PvE is Throw Caution, Plant Growth, Gushing wounds, Split Strike, Clear the Ground, Forest Ghost and Disrupting Shot. There is ZERO room to change anything if we are performing the main DPS role for the group. If there is someone whom can out dmg me in the group and we are not currently at max buff/debuff then I have no quams about changing loadouts for a support build. But that is a completely different setup altogether.
When I played trapper IIRC the set skill line up was, Plant Growth/Cordon of Arrows, Steel Breeze/Constricting Arrow, Hindering Strike/Hindering Shot, Careful Attack/Hunters Teamwork, Slashers Mark and Forest Ghost. But IIRC you would also swap our Hindering for GW/LS as well as PG/CoA for Thornward and wouldnt see a DPS hit since you were gaining the LS buff which was able to be kept up 100% of the time. Since Trapper DMG at the time was based around keeping Master trapper up 100% of the time and managing your stacks of Serpent and getting ridiculous Thorned Roots dmg.
When Mod 12 hit and they fixed the bugs and interactions and enchants Combats dmg really went up. Mainly from a fixed Piercing Blades scaling and Feytouched finally being fixed. Trapper at the release was untouched dmg wise. I took a break shortly after 12b hit from just being burned out running ToNG nonstop and not seening any Ulimate stones drop, I was just frustrated with the game. I came back to the game a few days after Mod 13 hit. I have not read what changes they made with Mod 13, I'll have to go take a look at the patch notes for it.
I don't PvP other than an occasional Dwarven Valley/Icewing Pass when im really bored. So I don't have a feel for what really works or doesn't work for us in PvP. As far as anyone being kicked from a group for playing Trapper, I would like to think that it would be on a performance basis. I know a lot of players that still did amazing dmg as trapper in Mod 12/12b in ToNG and so on. Unless Mod 13 gutted something with Trapper then I have no clue. I have no problems kicking players that are performing subpar tho. If I'm running speed farms in ToNG and bring you as main dmg and you are horrible at then you will get replaced rather quickly. I wouldn't replace anyone for playing any specific builds as long as they knew what they were doing and provided the needed buffs/debuffs/dmg that was needed for the most effecient run possible. I personally have ZERO patience for 15k+ players that don't know what buffs/debuffs are needed, how to work & communicate with the group to coordinate everything or those DPS toons that just plain suck at it.
I just looked over the Mod 13 patch notes and the only changes that I see that really impact Trapper is what ever they did with Careful attack has messed up your guys dmg quite a bit. I can't see where any changes to the way enchants work would effect you guys since you should be using Dread.
I'm not sure if Sume still plays since I just came back a few weeks ago but make sure to check out his videos here.
Thing is you cant go off of paingiver to judge how well the build is. There is a set amount of dmg you can do providing you don't wipe. Depending on what packs you skip the main dps normally sets between 1.3-1.7 bil dmg over all. What you have to look at is the clear times. In that video they cleared it just shy of 29 min. When Mod 12 released even then 29 min was rather slow. My avg run times then were 20-22 min and now in Mod 13 they avg 15-18 min with a coordinated group and around the 20 min mark with random pugs. Now the BiS Meta's with coordination is doing it 10-12 min range. So the question is what should the % of dps difference between a BiS Trapper and a BiS Combat be if each are played perfectly? I am personally of the mindset, the more utility that you bring to the group the less dmg you should do.
Thing is you cant go off of paingiver to judge how well the build is. There is a set amount of dmg you can do providing you don't wipe. Depending on what packs you skip the main dps normally sets between 1.3-1.7 bil dmg over all. What you have to look at is the clear times. In that video they cleared it just shy of 29 min. When Mod 12 released even then 29 min was rather slow. My avg run times then were 20-22 min and now in Mod 13 they avg 15-18 min with a coordinated group and around the 20 min mark with random pugs. Now the BiS Meta's with coordination is doing it 10-12 min range. So the question is what should the % of dps difference between a BiS Trapper and a BiS Combat be if each are played perfectly? I am personally of the mindset, the more utility that you bring to the group the less dmg you should do.
First tnx for the input and knowledge you have added it is nothing short of amazingly professional.
And yes the challange I see is to know when utility adds to a better result then personal high dps depending group set up and builds of the rest of the team. Running with same people knowing their set up and build (including companions, weapon enchantments, rotations of power/dailies etc etc) makes this easer ofc.
Just making sure having the right companions and using an effective combination of weapon enchants will make the differance between a good 25 min run and a 15 min run in TONG.
Unless you run with people you know and instead pug (with good players non the less from tong channel as an example) the chanse to maximize your set up is more or less impossible you have to go for an average best performance imo....
What about control it seem like even when I get master trapper in a fight I still don’t control an enemy for long, and I’m running with the vahalla set. It seems like control doesn’t work at all, Can someone tell me what they did with control because my control is HAMSTER right now.
all I have to say is ive been running a trapper build for years and have no problem hitting top dps in pve if you know how to run a trapper very well you can still out dps combat hr's and gwf as long as your build is sound and you know your rotations. ive never been kicked from a group because I was a trapper and ive done to9g as the only dps in group under 30 min. Im only a 16.9 in a gh 17 guild all im saying is they arnt as useless as people say they are.
I just respecced to a stormwarden combat for pve, the ca nerf on pc is just that bad. On act in the new tyrant bhe, despite a whole instance of players hitting the undead trex with ca on it... ca amounted to about 1% of my damage. Wow, the patch basically killed a whole paragon path.
I agree you can play whatever you like, and with good gear and skill make a reasonable job of it. However, running an unusual build does require some, I dunno, let's call it tolerance, from the rest of your party. As the player above shows, even in tong. However, chances are if you can do tong in half an hour with a trapper build, you could do it faster with a combat build on the same toon. Perhaps a lot faster.
Tong is fairly forgiving as long as you burn down the souls constantly. But cradle, in my opinion at least, is a place where the sooner you burn down the boss the better. It has some really punishing attacks and mechanics. Taking extra time there means the rest of the party is exposed to needless danger, and the risk of wiping gets that much greater.
Wait, what did devs do to careful attack? @jonkoca have you tried CA in other places/ dungeons?
Example, at least in mod 12 and 12b, Tyrannical Curse didn't work on any T-Rex enemy type (including KOS) but worked with the rest (or at least most of them) and in other maps. Perhaps CA is broken in Omu only?
Yeah, if you use it to buff plantgrowth and gushing wound during a period when you are being buffed by your party and your own buffs - soulseer crystal, cavalry's warning etc. Huge burst.
But if you're just doing dailies or whatever then sure slot something else.
Comments
Yesterday I ran Archer through T9g with no issues. Finished with 500+ mill. Because of the group, I could stay in ranged stance and spam LSS, no one said anything. Orcus boss fell fast, FAST!
But yeah trapper needs some love. Roots don't root, or stun, or anything much at all.
I came back to the game at Mod 10 when Trapper was king of the hill, Combat was ok but a decent trapper could just smash all over a top Combat player. Mainly from the dmg of the roots and the way careful attack was working along with have literally no cooldowns. I played both styles but was more comfortable playing SW Combat myself so that is the patch that I stuck with. Then in Mod 12 they fixed some of the issues that Combat had that just opened the gate and allowed the Combat tree to just blow everything out of the water if played correctly.
Now the way that I look at the 2 different paths is this. Trapper is "supposed" to be loaded down with snares, roots and stuns. So it has massive CC ability as long as the mobs are not immune. It has the best mobility of all the paths with Slashers Mark and if you take Fleet stance. Then most of the time it runs Thorn Ward, Long striders, Hunters Teamwork so you have a nice kit of buffs/ debuffs baked into the regular play of it.
Take the SW Combat build now. In the standard build it offers no CC to speak of other than a few secs of CoA when used at ranged, Plant Growth breaks instantly. It has nothing to boost mobility other than Forest Ghost. As well as if SW Combat wants to weave in Longstriders during a fight that doesn't provide natural gaps it is a DPS loss to do so.
My HR is brought to the group as the main dmg. So when I run ToNG its 2 DC's, OP, GF and myself. It's the same for CoDG just with more support and another 1 or 2 dmg toons. HR's while we have the ability to bring buffs and debuffs there are other classes that do it 100x's better. So my thought process is that since Trapper has a better tool kit with it's "standard" build it should inately do less dps than Combat can do. How much of a gap between the two should it be? TBH I have no clue but IMO it should be rather noticeable. Partys should have to decide if they want more support with CC/buffs/debuffs and OK dps or a DPS machine.
As far as Archery goes,.... When I made my HR I thought it was a ranged class tbh, ol boy did Cryptic trick me lol. I would love for the Ranged classes in the game to be truly ranged. CW's, SW's and HR's need to be able to be at max range and attack with no penalities. Cryptic needs to make all buffs/debuffs party wide. Their current design kills all classes and builds that are ranged. They wouldn't need to be the best dps in the game IMO, they should be lower than melee since they would get to avoid 99% of fight mechaincs being that far out. Having a class that was low burst/sustain dmg could be at range free casting would/could be more effective netting more avg dmg over all. IMO would be very easy to balance a true ranged class that way.
> @dragonsbane Trapper CC and dmg has been nerfed to the ground, roots are useless on bosses, and a combat hr can use thorn ward to debuff too, in fact all combat hrs use it... they need to rework the trapper mechanics and make it useful again. do you agree that a player should be kicked from a party just because he isnt combat??? and when u do have dcs,warlocks,pallies etc etc y would u want a trapper to buff and support??? and no, the gap shouldnt be that noticeable since trapper uses 6 encounters at all times, i believe cryptic is trolling us trappers xD also, trapper dont use the power u said at all times lul. constrict and cordon always slotted, hindering at most times or when at boss switch it to LS. fox is also viable, and to stun u need to slot crushing roots but that leads to huge dps loss because u have to replace serpent or aspect of the pack and there are other classes that CC better than trapper. this is just my opinion and i do think u have some valid points.
> @ibemin0x said:
> @dragonsbane Trapper CC and dmg has been nerfed to the ground, roots are useless on bosses, and a combat hr can use thorn ward to debuff too, in fact all combat hrs use it... they need to rework the trapper mechanics and make it useful again. do you agree that a player should be kicked from a party just because he isnt combat??? and when u do have dcs,warlocks,pallies etc etc y would u want a trapper to buff and support??? and no, the gap shouldnt be that noticeable since trapper uses 6 encounters at all times, i believe cryptic is trolling us trappers xD also, trapper dont use the power u said at all times lul. constrict and cordon always slotted, hindering at most times or when at boss switch it to LS. fox is also viable, and to stun u need to slot crushing roots but that leads to huge dps loss because u have to replace serpent or aspect of the pack and there are other classes that CC better than trapper. this is just my opinion and i do think u have some valid points.
> @ibemin0x said:
> @dragonsbane Trapper CC and dmg has been nerfed to the ground, roots are useless on bosses, and a combat hr can use thorn ward to debuff too, in fact all combat hrs use it... they need to rework the trapper mechanics and make it useful again. do you agree that a player should be kicked from a party just because he isnt combat??? and when u do have dcs,warlocks,pallies etc etc y would u want a trapper to buff and support??? and no, the gap shouldnt be that noticeable since trapper uses 6 encounters at all times, i believe cryptic is trolling us trappers xD also, trapper dont use the power u said at all times lul. constrict and cordon always slotted, hindering at most times or when at boss switch it to LS. fox is also viable, and to stun u need to slot crushing roots but that leads to huge dps loss because u have to replace serpent or aspect of the pack and there are other classes that CC better than trapper. this is just my opinion and i do think u have some valid points.
I definitely agree
While yes a Combat HR can slot Thorn Ward, to do so would drop our dps output to that of a TR
When I played trapper IIRC the set skill line up was, Plant Growth/Cordon of Arrows, Steel Breeze/Constricting Arrow, Hindering Strike/Hindering Shot, Careful Attack/Hunters Teamwork, Slashers Mark and Forest Ghost. But IIRC you would also swap our Hindering for GW/LS as well as PG/CoA for Thornward and wouldnt see a DPS hit since you were gaining the LS buff which was able to be kept up 100% of the time. Since Trapper DMG at the time was based around keeping Master trapper up 100% of the time and managing your stacks of Serpent and getting ridiculous Thorned Roots dmg.
When Mod 12 hit and they fixed the bugs and interactions and enchants Combats dmg really went up. Mainly from a fixed Piercing Blades scaling and Feytouched finally being fixed. Trapper at the release was untouched dmg wise. I took a break shortly after 12b hit from just being burned out running ToNG nonstop and not seening any Ulimate stones drop, I was just frustrated with the game. I came back to the game a few days after Mod 13 hit. I have not read what changes they made with Mod 13, I'll have to go take a look at the patch notes for it.
I don't PvP other than an occasional Dwarven Valley/Icewing Pass when im really bored. So I don't have a feel for what really works or doesn't work for us in PvP. As far as anyone being kicked from a group for playing Trapper, I would like to think that it would be on a performance basis. I know a lot of players that still did amazing dmg as trapper in Mod 12/12b in ToNG and so on. Unless Mod 13 gutted something with Trapper then I have no clue. I have no problems kicking players that are performing subpar tho. If I'm running speed farms in ToNG and bring you as main dmg and you are horrible at then you will get replaced rather quickly. I wouldn't replace anyone for playing any specific builds as long as they knew what they were doing and provided the needed buffs/debuffs/dmg that was needed for the most effecient run possible. I personally have ZERO patience for 15k+ players that don't know what buffs/debuffs are needed, how to work & communicate with the group to coordinate everything or those DPS toons that just plain suck at it.
I'm not sure if Sume still plays since I just came back a few weeks ago but make sure to check out his videos here.
His last video was 3 months ago so with any luck he is still playing and testing out things.
And yes the challange I see is to know when utility adds to a better result then personal high dps depending group set up and builds of the rest of the team.
Running with same people knowing their set up and build (including companions, weapon enchantments, rotations of power/dailies etc etc) makes this easer ofc.
Just making sure having the right companions and using an effective combination of weapon enchants will make the differance between a good 25 min run and a 15 min run in TONG.
Unless you run with people you know and instead pug (with good players non the less from tong channel as an example) the chanse to maximize your set up is more or less impossible you have to go for an average best performance imo....
Feytouched is the best for Combat
I agree you can play whatever you like, and with good gear and skill make a reasonable job of it. However, running an unusual build does require some, I dunno, let's call it tolerance, from the rest of your party. As the player above shows, even in tong. However, chances are if you can do tong in half an hour with a trapper build, you could do it faster with a combat build on the same toon. Perhaps a lot faster.
Tong is fairly forgiving as long as you burn down the souls constantly. But cradle, in my opinion at least, is a place where the sooner you burn down the boss the better. It has some really punishing attacks and mechanics. Taking extra time there means the rest of the party is exposed to needless danger, and the risk of wiping gets that much greater.
Example, at least in mod 12 and 12b, Tyrannical Curse didn't work on any T-Rex enemy type (including KOS) but worked with the rest (or at least most of them) and in other maps. Perhaps CA is broken in Omu only?
take a look here https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1239028/careful-atack-hunter-rangers-at-will-pathfinder
> @jaime4312#3760
> take a look here https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1239028/careful-atack-hunter-rangers-at-will-pathfinder
@dragonsbane3
Thanks! So, either a ninja nerf or a bug, I wonder if devs will say anything about that power.
But if you're just doing dailies or whatever then sure slot something else.