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It feels like the devs are "far" from the game.

oxymaoxyma Member Posts: 30 Arc User
And by far i bet they don't even play their game...
I would like to see 5 devs play 1 of these dungeons with the minimum required item lvl and with 1 devoted cleric:
Fangbreaker island
Spellplague Caverne master
Tomb of The Nine Gods
Assault on Svardborg

If the players can't do it then, the devs should show us it's possible... if you can't, make those dungeons free to play and not pay to win.
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  • oxymaoxyma Member Posts: 30 Arc User
    greywynd said:

    Nothing in this game is pay to win. At best just "pay to get there faster".

    That's not what i see when i play this game.
  • preechr#2215 preechr Member Posts: 488 Arc User
    Teams of over-buffed 17K rockstars can blow through the most difficult content as if the bosses don't exist because their team composition and builds make them ten times more powerful than the content is built for and they can ignore most of the mechanics that are designed to make the dungeons challenging

    Devs that test these dungeons at recommended item levels with 1 Tank and 1 DC are successful because they designed the mechanics and know exactly what to do and when to do it

    Both have major advantages over average players, first and foremost being that they know exactly how to build and what to do and they are planning and communicating with each other effectively

    Build a group of skilled players that are willing to work at it and practice until they learn the mechanics, and you will feel good about what you accomplished as a team... that's what the content is designed to give you
  • oxymaoxyma Member Posts: 30 Arc User
    I knew it would end like that... with no serious answers.
  • agilestoagilesto Member Posts: 516 Arc User
    oxyma said:

    I knew it would end like that... with no serious answers.

    You mean with serious answer but a troll OP that doesn't even want to read or try to understand answers? Yeah, several threads like this currently...

    As said, no pay wall in the game. You can speed things up by buying bazillions of AD, but it's pay to accelerate, not to progress.
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  • micky1p00micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,594 Arc User
    edited February 2018
    oxyma said:

    I knew it would end like that... with no serious answers.

    1. Who said that everyone must complete the dungeons at minimal IL? It's minimal to enter per member. Not the minimal to complete on all skill levels.

    2. What it has to do with paywalls ? How minimal entrance to a dungeon determines p2w or not?

    3. You are not skilled enough to complete it with minimal gear? It's ok most of us aren't. Go farm and progress.

    4. Every thread you do is whining. Less whining on the forums is more time spent progressing in the game, you should try that.


    Some people choose to ask for help when needed. Try to overcome the challenge ahead of them, or to change their environment when needed. While others complain.
    While there is a content gap between CN and FBI that should be plugged with something and RQ seperated for t3 and bellow, if you think that you can pug at 11k tank and go through FBI, you are mistaken, and it's not P2W or paywall as you can overcome this issue with grind, skill or help.
  • plasticbatplasticbat Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 12,456 Arc User
    oxyma said:

    I knew it would end like that... with no serious answers.

    You did not even ask a question, serious or not.
    *** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
  • oxymaoxyma Member Posts: 30 Arc User
    edited February 2018
    The question are:
    Why do we need 2 devoted cleric to complete the dungeons I mentioned above?
    Why can't we complete these dungeons on public queues?

    I dont care pay to win, just show me u can do these dungeons with just 1 Devoted Cleric and on Public Queue

    Mod edited out SHOUTY caps and edited our rule violation.
    Post edited by kreatyve on
  • agilestoagilesto Member Posts: 516 Arc User
    edited February 2018
    Removed mod edited quote.

    Serious answers:
    - You don't need 2 DC to complete the dungeons you mentioned above
    - You can complete these dungeons on public queue
    Post edited by kreatyve on
  • plasticbatplasticbat Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 12,456 Arc User
    edited February 2018
    Removed mod edited quote.

    A1: You can finish the above mentioned dungeon without 2 DC.
    A2: If all the 5 random players know what they are doing, they can complete those dungeons.
    Post edited by kreatyve on
    *** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
  • klangeddinklangeddin Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 882 Arc User
    edited February 2018
    TONG can be done with 1 devoted cleric, and FBI can be done with 0 devoted cleric. However, the meta is doing it with 2 clerics because, at the highest level, it's twice (if not even more) as fast.
    However, there is some merit in this thread, it is true that, to complete a dungeon at minimum IL, "key" (generally the tank) roles must be played by people who know the dungeon like their own pockets (ie alts of higher IL mains).

    And, to be fair, I've never seen 5 12ks do TONG from the public queue, honestly I don't think that is possible. Ras Nsi has a dps check with the souls. DPSers with that low IL can't manage to handle the souls, imho.
  • oxymaoxyma Member Posts: 30 Arc User


    And, to be fair, I've never seen 5 12ks do TONG from the public queue, honestly I don't think that is possible. Ras Nsi has a dps check with the souls. DPSers with that low IL can't manage to handle the souls, imho.

    Thanks you, that's what i wanted to prove, and i hope the Devs consider lowering the dificulty of the latest dungeons
  • greywyndgreywynd Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 7,158 Arc User
    One person thinking something isn't proof. Few of the dungeons can be done at the entry item level if the entire party is at that item level. Not unless they have worked together extensively. That is something you will never find in a pug party.
    I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
  • minotaur2857minotaur2857 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,141 Arc User
    They also probably attempt them on decent computers and with a mega fast connection. Get them to bounce their packets via a server elsewhere and see if they can still dodge the red patches on the sort of pings that their players far away get (we have people who get 300 ping on a good day in our guild).
  • sundance777sundance777 Member Posts: 1,097 Arc User
    I would agree that those dungeons are a fair amount harder than the IL required to enter suggest.

    Sure 4x 16K could carry a 12K through but that is not realistically going to happen without a privately created carry group which is not the public queue. In essence I think the public Q requirements are misleading. I have seen people say in chat, "Hooray! I made it to 12K, can you take me to Tong now?" That doesn't usually end well unless the character at 12K are also basically built to the meta or the carry group could have run the content without the player to begin with.

    I have done all but one of those done with only one cleric, including MSVA. I have not personally seen TONG done that way yet but a DC in my guild has done it for sure. I have done FBI with no cleric and it went fairly well.

    I dont think the mix of the group is the only factor, I think it is a combination of things. IL entry requirements are too low, or at least misleading, to be successful in the public Q thus lowering the desire to use it and allowing groups that are not 1DC/1Tank/3DPS to mix and match their own groupings, also lowers the use of the public Q in order to speed up the runs.

    Because the players at max level mix and match powers to form an ideal group they can cause content that is hard to clear with a random group to be trivial and then we need harder content and class nerfs. I would much rather see higher IL requirements, the removal of meta combinations and realistic difficulties rather than bosses with a billion HP and class nerfs to drop the so called power creep.



    TR - Sun: 16000 IL
    OP - Sunshine: 16000 IL

    Casual Dailies
  • micky1p00micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,594 Arc User
    edited February 2018
    Removed mod edited quote.

    There are things that even two DC can't heal.
    Post edited by kreatyve on
  • oldbaldyoneoldbaldyone Member Posts: 1,840 Arc User
    oxyma said:


    And, to be fair, I've never seen 5 12ks do TONG from the public queue, honestly I don't think that is possible. Ras Nsi has a dps check with the souls. DPSers with that low IL can't manage to handle the souls, imho.

    Thanks you, that's what i wanted to prove, and i hope the Devs consider lowering the dificulty of the latest dungeons
    Simple answer: TONG is not designed for 5 people at 12k IL, unless they are VERY VERY VERY good at their class. It is designed as end game content.

    And seriously, tell me who of the below 2 groups of people do YOU think they are going to cater to:

    Group A - 16-17-18K IL folks who are constantly pushing the envelope to remain at the top, and probably have spent some cash, and who are BEGGING for harder content.
    Group B - 11-12k IL players who can't be bothered to gear up and have no interest in spending money..who want the entire game nerfed down so they don't need to progress.

    Group A, every time. Sorry. I don't really see this changing.

    And BTW, People have SOLOED FBI. People have 5 MAN, 1 rounded Tiamat. If you have a clue, this game is not that hard. But yes, it does take some effort and they are unlikely to nerf things down so that people who aren't willing to put in the effort, can do what tose who do put in the effort can do.
  • santralafaxsantralafax Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,896 Arc User


    I have done all but one of those done with only one cleric, including MSVA. I have not personally seen TONG done that way yet but a DC in my guild has done it for sure. I have done FBI with no cleric and it went fairly well.

    You can do T9G with 1 cleric, people just don't like to. They want it cheesey and fast. I'm not talking about running it at 12K, though.
  • hypervoreianhypervoreian Member Posts: 1,036 Arc User

    Ras Nsi has a dps check with the souls. DPSers with that low IL can't manage to handle the souls, imho.

    I honestly believe that reducing the Hp of the Souls by 33%-66% would solve a lot of the problems in tong,for lower IL players.
    Just that .
    Also it is not that was not done before: after mod6 release at least two changes were made to the Hp and outgoing damage of the adds in dungeons.The one was reduce of the damage of the mobs by 66%.And shortly after a week or two ,a new reduce of their damage and increase of their HP(if i rememmber corectly)

  • minotaur2857minotaur2857 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,141 Arc User

    oxyma said:


    And, to be fair, I've never seen 5 12ks do TONG from the public queue, honestly I don't think that is possible. Ras Nsi has a dps check with the souls. DPSers with that low IL can't manage to handle the souls, imho.

    Thanks you, that's what i wanted to prove, and i hope the Devs consider lowering the dificulty of the latest dungeons
    Simple answer: TONG is not designed for 5 people at 12k IL, unless they are VERY VERY VERY good at their class. It is designed as end game content.

    And seriously, tell me who of the below 2 groups of people do YOU think they are going to cater to:

    Group A - 16-17-18K IL folks who are constantly pushing the envelope to remain at the top, and probably have spent some cash, and who are BEGGING for harder content.
    Group B - 11-12k IL players who can't be bothered to gear up and have no interest in spending money..who want the entire game nerfed down so they don't need to progress.

    Group A, every time. Sorry. I don't really see this changing.

    And BTW, People have SOLOED FBI. People have 5 MAN, 1 rounded Tiamat. If you have a clue, this game is not that hard. But yes, it does take some effort and they are unlikely to nerf things down so that people who aren't willing to put in the effort, can do what tose who do put in the effort can do.
    Complete elitist strawman rubbish. The group they should be catering for is those who've made some effort and are about 14-16K. Why ? because there are an awful lot more of them than 17-18Ks, and actually many of the 17K+s I know never spend a penny of real money on the game, just farm their alt armies and make more ADs than they can ever spend if they concentrate on one main. The elitists don't see them very often, but a number of people play with their friends in guilds and don't have 2K of guild boons (500 of which is totally irrelevant for PvE), and others play more than one character so can't get them all to 17K.

    The issue actually is that it's a haves and have nots thing, if you're a 14-15K DPS, you don't tend to get invited to the fast ToNGs and nobody wants to spend 3 hours doing it.

    I remember an argument like this in an older Cryptic game, which just got ended by a dev explaining they were not going to balance stuff around the equivalent of the 17.5K+s because only a TINY fraction of accounts had one (I can't remember how many zeroes were after the 0. and before the % but it was at least one and I think more).

    The problem is that ToNG is end game content, but it also drops stuff that really helps to GET to end game content.

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  • gromovnipljesak#8234 gromovnipljesak Member Posts: 1,053 Arc User
    Fyi, my main is 16.4k and I have not spent a cent. So yeah. Not pay to win. Pay to win would have to have a way to get all around superior gear that's vastly better than what you can get for free. There is no such thing. You can get literally everything with enough grind.
  • marv700#9957 marv700 Member Posts: 135 Arc User
    Just hold on a second. Forget all the BS about pay to win for a sec.

    Lets see the Devs do those dungeons with minimum IL characters and 1 DC in the group.

    I don't believe they can do it.

  • ecrana#2080 ecrana Member Posts: 1,654 Arc User
    This is really straying from the OP original comment about seeing the dev's play this game the way they intend the average player to play it. I see no harm in this statement and would love to see it if no reason than some entertainment.

    All the BS about high level BiS players spending the most on the game is unimportant. Quite frankly I disagree completely with this nonsense thought. The idea that the minority of the gaming community puts in the majority of the money is just total guesswork and an outright fabrication unless you have some company financing records at your disposal.

    I'll also say that almost all of the high 16k players I know haven't spent a dime on this game in a very long time since they were smart enough to take advantage of double events, etc to make tons of AD and have no need to put actual money into the game.

    Do I know a few guys that dropped $1000+ into the game? Yes. But they are the extreme minority in my experience and more often than not the guys dropping cash are the ones playing catchup.
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